Dan Pashman: Hey everyone, Dan here with a special St. Patrick's Day Reheat of The Sporkful. And this one I'm going to sit down with a Catholic priest to share a drink. And I'm not talking about sacramental wine, this is a priest-slash-mixologist. Also in this episode, I revisit a bar from my past, Sligo Pub in Davis Square in Somerville, Mass, right near Tufts University where I went to college. Sligo actually closed down in 2023, RIP Sligo, after decades in operation. But I'm glad to have this audio record, because Sligo was like a real dive bar, not a trendy dive bar, just a great, super casual, no frills place to get a drink. So I'm so glad to share this episode with you, which I think will give you a vivid sense of what made it so special.

Dan Pashman: Now, of course, I love hearing from you and I want to know what episodes you think we should reheat. Send me an email or voice memo to hello@sporkful.com. Tell me your name, location, what episode you want us to reheat, and why. So, cheers! And happy St. Patrick's Day.  

Dan Pashman: So how do you feel about the term dive bar? 

Steve: It doesn't  bother me at all. It's good.  

Dan Pashman: This is Steve, he’s the bartender at an old Irish bar  in Somerville, Mass, called Sligo Pub in Somerville, Mass. Steve’s been there for six years, but the bar’s been there a lot longer.  

Steve: There's a guy that comes in here. He's 78. He was shining shoes when he was eight years old in here, so this bar, it's been here for seventy years at least. 

Dan Pashman: And when you switched jobs and you came here, what drew you to this place?  

Steve: Because I don't have to make martinis.

[LAUGHER]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Today on The Sporkful, ahead of St. Patrick’s Day, we’ll ask, What makes a great bar and a great bartender? I went to Sligo Pub to find the answer to the first question, and I ended up finding so much more. I can’t wait for you to hear the people I met there.   

Dan Pashman: Then later in the show, I’ll have a drink with a priest. But not just any priest. This one’s got a special title: 

Father Bill Dailey: The chaplain to the DC Craft Cocktail Bartenders Guild.

Dan Pashman: Was that a vacancy, the previous chaplain had left?

Father Bill Dailey: I think I was the inaugural chaplain. And I said Well, what would my duties be? He said well, we didn't really think about that But I guess you just have to keep coming to our bars and eating and drinking, but we'll charge you less 

Dan Pashman: Father Bill Dailey makes me a drink called a Gaelic Flip and explains what a great priest and a great bartender have in common. That’s coming up, stick around. 

MUSIC  

Dan Pashman: From WNYC Studios, this is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies it’s for eaters, I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people.  

Dan Pashman:  And before I take you to Sligo Pub, I've got to set this place up for you a little bit. First, Sligo is a county in Ireland, County Sligo. That's where that word comes from.  

Dan Pashman: Now, it's in Davis Square, Somerville, Massachusetts, just on the outskirts of Boston. Davis Square, kind of an old Irish Italian neighborhood that has gentrified somewhat in recent years, but not completely. And it's right near Tufts University, where I went to college. And for four years I was at Tufts, and when I had my fake ID – and when I had my real ID – I went to all the cheesy college kid bars in Davis Square. I never set foot into Sligo.  

Dan Pashman: The Sligo was known as the townie bar. And the perception was that someone like me was not welcome there. After I graduated, I still lived nearby, a couple friends of mine started hanging out at the Sligo. And they were like, You've got to come to this bar, like, it is the greatest place, like, it's so warm and friendly and full of every kind of character you could imagine.

Dan Pashman: And oh, by the way, the drinks cost half as much as what they cost at the bar down the block. And I started hanging out there, and I fell in love with Sligo Pub.  

Dan Pashman: Fast forward to today, I went into Sligo Pub just recently, and the place hasn't changed a bit. Still the sort of lived in, no frills feel. And I told the bartender why I was there, and he sort of made this announcement to the five or six regulars – this is a Monday afternoon. Five or six regulars sitting at the bar. “Anyone want to talk to this guy on the radio?”

Dan Pashman: One of the guys sitting at the bar, without saying a word, picks up his pack of cigarettes and turns, leaving half a drink on the bar, turns and walks right out the door, and does not say a word and does not come back. Okay? 

Dan Pashman: There is a certain crustiness to Sligo Pub. In a way, it's a lot like New Englanders. It's kind of crusty on the outside, but once you get past the crust, there's a very soft, warm, and fuzzy interior. And, so that guy left, and I could tell that this was going to be a bit of a tough nut to crack to get these regulars to talk to me, so I didn't pull out the mic right away, ordered a beer, sat with the guys, we watched some Family Feud together, chatted.

Dan Pashman: Eventually, I decided it was time to start recording. 

Dan Pashman: And, since I fell in love with Sligo, the term dive bar has gained this sort of hipster cachet. And I was really curious, because nowadays that's probably how you would describe Sligo. So I started off talking to one of the regulars named Mike, and I asked him how he feels about that label.

Mike:  I mean, I guess I equate dive bar to a neighborhood bar. You know, where you can come without any ears, you know, you can hear something on the jukebox. You don't have to refinance to have a drink. 

Dan Pashman: Great.  Yeah, it's interesting that that term, dive bar, has become this sort of newfangled… It has this sort of weird hipster cachet, but I feel like it's kind of, I can understand how it could be perceived as sort of insulting.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, you can try too hard and a lot of things in life. You know, you try too hard to be a dive bar, you know, a natural bar may be a dive bar, you know. Or, you know, you try and be cool, chic, and, you know, dark and funky. Or you can just be yourself, whether it's life or a bar.  We're here in

Mike: Davis Square at the Sligo, and this is, this is, it is what it is. Either you like it or you don't, and they don't apologize for it.  

Dan Pashman: What does this bar mean to you now?  

Mike: It's, it's, you know, it's a comfortable shoe that, you know, you come in and you put it on and  If you want to chit chat or whatever and talk about, you know, Did you see the debate last night? Did you see the Patriots last night or whatever? You can do that. It's a place that I have a certain comfort level where I can do what I want and, you know, be left alone doing it.  

Dan Pashman: I said goodbye to Mike and made my way down the bar to a guy named Corky. He's a carpenter from Ireland. 

Corky:  Uh, I'm gonna say, I moved to this country 15 years ago. Uh, I've been coming here about 13, 14 years.

Corky: It used to be great years ago, uh, Monday mornings especially.  When people didn't go to work and there'd be a ton of Irish in here. Uh, but it was good, good times. Always good times.  

Dan Pashman: What makes these bars special?  

Corky: It's definitely the characters in the bar, exactly.  It's different people, like, but genuine, honest people.

Corky: That's what I like about coming here. I could leave 100 on this counter and walk out the door and come back a half an hour later and it'll be still here. You know what I mean? 

Dan Pashman: How do you feel about the term dive bar?  

Corky: Uh, actually you know, I just think it's that somebody makes up this name and it's… they give a reward. Do you know what? I don't class it as a dive bar. To me, it's just a bar. It's like a home bar. To me. That's what it is. It's home. It's home.  

Dan Pashman: Remember at the start of this show, Steve, the bartender mentioned an older guy who comes in all the time, who shines shoes at the Sligo as a boy? Well, when I turned around, he was sitting right next to me. His name is George. 

George: I've been, I was born here in Somerville. 

Dan Pashman: Wow. 

George: So I, I came in here and started shoe shining about, I was about six, seven years old. Mrs. Conley had owned it. Mr. and Mrs. Conley owned it at the time. 

Dan Pashman: And you came in here to shine shoes to make some money?

George: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: When you were six or seven years old? 

George: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And may I ask how long ago that was?  

George: No, you can't. 

Dan Pashman: Steve estimated that it was about 70 years ago. Can we go with that rough estimate? 

George: Well, it may be, uh, close. Close.  I'm not gonna say anything. I usually try to keep my age to myself, you know. 

Dan Pashman: Right. So you've been coming to this bar for roughly 70 years. 

George: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: What do you love about it?  

George: Oh, I've been coming here a long time.I like the people, Mrs. Connelly was very, very nice. And she, when you're a young  African American kid, little boy and everything, people might want to play, not attack you, but they, you know. And then she made me  uh, feel very, very protected. She was very protective to me. And she would say like, uh, Don't mess with him. Don't rub his head. Just pay him his money and give him a tip.  

George: When she died I went to her funeral over in St. John's Church and her husband was there and he told me, My wife liked you and she was, she was the nicest lady. I was like her grandchild. And that's the way things were.  

Dan Pashman: I'm sure that, especially many decades ago, there were, you know, times that being an African American young man was not so easy, anywhere in the country, certainly here.

George: When I graduated, there were 697 kids there, graduating my senior class and 693 were white. There was four minorities. One girl and three guys. And that's the way things were. 

Dan Pashman: You know, it's interesting because there is like a stereotype that there's sort of like traditionally Boston, Irish community, not exactly getting along with African Americans. I think it's pretty great that… 

George: I don't remember having any problems like that in Somerville. And I got along, we got along. Maybe because it was a very small minority. Very, very small. So, there was no challenge to things that were going on. 

Dan Pashman: They didn't feel threatened? 

George: No, not  one bit. 

Dan Pashman: George, you've been walking in the front door of this bar for 70 years. What do you feel like now when you walk in the door? 

George: I don't feel any difference. The same bar, you know, I know all the people in here. 

Dan Pashman: What's the feeling that you get? 

George: Hey, I came in for a drink, that's it. 

Dan Pashman: Well, let's get you a drink. What are you drinking, George? 

George: I am drinking wine. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. Steve, can we get a drink for George here?

George: Oh, you're going to buy it, then? 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I'm buying you a drink, George. 

George: All right, then I will take scotch. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, get the man a scotch. 

George: I drink scotch in here, it ain't no way. 

Dan Pashman: Well, cheers to Mrs. Connolly, that's what I say. 

George: Yep, cheers to her. She's a fine lady. 

Dan Pashman: Thanks to George, Corky, Mike, Steve the bartender, and all the guys at Sligo Pub in Somerville, Mass. It felt really good to be back there. Kind of like Mike said, like slipping on an old shoe. 

Dan Pashman: Coming up, we'll turn from what makes a great bar, to what makes a great bartender, and a great drink. I'll meet up with Father Bill Dailey. He's a priest, a Notre Dame law professor, and an expert mixologist. He'll mix me a drink and tell me about the time that a nun gave him his first taste of bourbon. I'll tell him about the time they wouldn't let me into the Vatican. Stick around. 

+++ BREAK ++++

Dan Pashman:  Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman, and I have a very big, exciting announcement for you. This past November, I took a group of Sporkful fans and some others on a special trip across Italy to eat pasta, to retrace many of the steps I took on my own research trip for my cookbook, and we had so much fun and ate so, so well.

Dan Pashman: We ate spaghetti all’assassina in Bari. We took a cooking class with Silvestro Silvestori. We ate with Katie Parla in Rome. And the folks at Culinary Backstreets who organized the tour, they added some stops that I didn't even know about that were new to me, that were incredibly delicious and also fascinating. Point is, it was so great, we're doing it again.

Dan Pashman: This November, we just opened up spots. It's a small group, so space is limited. Bottom line, come eat pasta with me in Italy! For all the details, go to culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful.  

Dan Pashman: Now, back to our St. Patrick's Day show, or at least it's loosely a St. Patrick's Day show. So, it's only fitting that the second half also takes place in a bar.The Churchill in New York. 

Dan Pashman: Now the Churchill is an English pub, not an Irish one. More on that later. It's owned by an Englishman named Scott and his wife Sinead, who is Irish. Sinead's lived in the U.S. for 22 years, but I can tell when I talk to her, she still misses home. 

Dan Pashman: When you walk into a pub in the U.S. that claims to be an Irish pub, what are some of the things, the little things, that tip you off? As to whether it's a good Irish pub or some sort of like cheesy tourist bar?  

Sinead: Uh, the amount of plastic I suppose, but um… 

Dan Pashman: Plastic?  

Sinead: And the TV's everywhere, we don't do that at home. I don't know, it's just a little quieter and darker and it's more about chat and beer and meeting people and it's just a different vibe. It's the vibe maybe. 

Dan Pashman: Right. I was thinking one of the rules that I might look at is the ratio of chairs per square foot. 

[LAUGHTER]

Dan Pashman: You know, because like you said, like a good Irish pub, people are sitting down and they're talking. When I  walk into a bar that claims to be an Irish pub, but it's got like, you know, 500 square feet of empty space because they just want like a dance floor? 

Sinead: You know, I never thought about that. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. But it's true. Is that a good rule? 

Sinead: Yeah. Because we would have a lot of the soft seating and the little banquettes, you know. And the odd painting on the wall or lots of woods. They're, they're just very simple. Very simple. 

Dan Pashman: But warm.

Sinead: Very warm and sometimes in some of the older pubs in town there were little fireplaces. But you don't see them so much anymore.

Dan Pashman: Right, fireplace and carpeting. That's another…

Sinead: Oh carpets. Oh my god 

Dan Pashman: You don't see that here right? 

Sinead: Yeah, and that's hotel lounges. No, that's right No.

Dan Pashman: So when it's st. Patrick's Day in the u. s. A lot of people who aren't Irish…

Sinead: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Act the way they think Irish people act. 

Sinead: Yeah. At home people used to go to mass.  

Dan Pashman: On St. Patrick's Day? 

Sinead: On St. Patrick's Day. You'd get the shamrock, the fresh shamrock from the plant in the hallway. You'd go to mass. And there might be the odd parade in town or something like that. But these were not drinking days. 

Sinead: I don't actually think the pubs in Ireland were open on St. Patrick's Day until recent years. You know, it's a very, very different thing. Now things have changed and there are larger parades and it's more festive. 

Dan Pashman: But as an immigrant to the U.S. I mean, on one hand, St. Patrick's Day has become kind of gross and a sort of bastardization of Irish culture. But on the other hand, there is a through line that's like an Irish Pride Day parade.  It's your day in America. 

Sinead: I was really taken by it when I first came here. I think I used to be very emotional about it almost, that all of these people were just walking up Fifth Avenue and they were all Irish or claimed to be Irish and it was kind of phenomenal.  

Dan Pashman: So where would you rather celebrate St. Patrick's Day? 

Sinead: [LAUGHS] I would always rather be in Ireland, of course,  but  there is a little bit of  sentimental pride standing in New York and St. Patrick's Day and feeling very good about being Irish. 

Dan Pashman: I was joined at the church hill by Father Bill Dailey. He's a Catholic priest, a law professor at Notre Dame, and a guy known to make a mean cocktail. In fact, the Washington, D.C. Craft Cocktail Bartenders Guild made him their official chaplain. They created the role just for him. Father Bill makes me a drink called the Gaelic Flip.

Father Bill Dailey: I like to have the upper hand in, uh, in interviews, and so the smartest way to do that is to get the interviewer soused. So let's see. 

Dan Pashman: Don't worry, he made one for himself too. The Gaelic Flip is made with Irish whiskey, sweet vermouth, allspice liqueur, and… 

Father Bill Dailey: And then we need a couple of whole eggs. 

Dan Pashman: I love a drink with a whole egg in it. 

Dan Pashman: Shake it, add ice, give it another shake, strain it into a glass, add a sprinkle of fresh nutmeg on top, and you're in business.  

Father Bill Dailey: Give that a try. 

Dan Pashman: Alright, well, cheers! 

Father Bill Dailey: Cheers!  

Dan Pashman: Oh, it's really nice.  What I like about this is I feel like it's a really good late winter, early spring, around St. Patrick's Day kind of drink, because it'll warm you up a little, if you've got a chilly, rainy St. Patrick's Day, it'll warm you up,  but it's also kind of refreshing. 

Father Bill Dailey: Yes.

Dan Pashman: So, Father, the first thing we gotta get out there is for people who, cause some people, I told them I was gonna come tape this with you, and they were like, Wait, priests can drink? 

Father Bill Dailey: They're obviously not Catholics. 

Dan Pashman: Forgive the, some of the, like, ignorance set up here, but for people who don't know, priests can drink?

Father Bill Dailey: Priests can drink. Um, it is the case that in the Gospel of John, the very first public miracle of Jesus is the famed wedding at Cana, where he of course turns water into wine. It's hard for me to understand how that could be a central first public miracle, and I'm not supposed to drink as a Christian. So we tend to take the idea that virtue is found in the mean, and obviously alcohol is a danger and a toxin, and has to be respected like many aspects of human life, but um, can be enjoyed in moderation.

Dan Pashman: Can nuns drink? 

Father Bill Dailey: They can. In fact, I was, uh, when I was in the seminary, the first time I had Maker's Mark was with the wonderful Sister Lourdes Sheehan. Other than water and the precious blood at mass, the only thing I ever saw Sister Lourdes drink was Maker's Mark. Great woman from Savannah. 

[LAUGHTER]

Dan Pashman: Let's, let's delve into the priesthood a little bit more. 

Father Bill Dailey: Sure. 

Dan Pashman: How did you come to want to be a priest? 

Father Bill Dailey: Um. Arriving at the priesthood is like figuring out, I suppose, how you know who, whom you want to marry. And I hope that that's not a particularly completely logical answer for most people. Hopefully you say, ah, this is the moment when my heart was captured. And there's some mystery to that. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Father Bill Dailey: My family were devout Catholics and we always had the priests over for dinner. I had an uncle who was a priest. He served in the missions in Central America. So I thought highly of priests, um, but it was only when I saw how it was lived at Notre Dame that I thought it might be something, um, that I was called to.

Dan Pashman: What are some of the similarities between what drew you to the priesthood and what drew you to mixology? 

Father Bill Dailey: What is it that, um, brings a person into church? Well, they've just had a baby, so we have a baptism to solemnize, to celebrate, to bring everyone together to say, here's this new life. They've just lost a friend.

Father Bill Dailey: Some people's only experience of church this year might be that a friend or two has died and they go to the funeral. They've come to a town and don't really know how to build community, and so the same idea, uh, that a priest has to meet a person where they are, assess what is their need. Why have they come to me today? Is it joyous? Is it anxious? Is it sorrow? So a bartender has to orchestrate, as a priest does, this community of people, some of whom are celebrating, some of whom may need a little reproving, some of whom, uh, need encouragement, um. 

Dan Pashman: It's interesting, I'm thinking about sort of like the life of a priest out there in the world. And I mean, obviously you seem like a guy who is, you know, very intelligent and intellectually curious, and so you're probably wiser than the average person anyway. But I would think, like, is it sometimes, like, people come to you and they expect you to have wisdom.  And I'm sure in some ways you do. But like, is that a hard pressure sometimes, to feel like you're always expected to have the answer?

Father Bill Dailey: You know, it's true sometimes that people think what I have to offer is wisdom.  Often the wisdom that I have is, uh, the wisdom to just be silent. And that would be, again, another characteristic of overlap with bartenders, right? Um, sometimes you just need to go tell your bartender what's happened that day.

Father Bill Dailey: Uh, Ugh, you wouldn't believe what I went through at work today. And a really good bartender doesn't have to tell you how to fix the boss or fix the colleague, but you're glad they're there. They sympathize. They might give a knowing grunt. You know, maybe they've had a similar, uh, frustrating experience at work. Uh, very often, the wisdom that the priest offers is really more, um, of the silence that you need to get something off of your chest, to process it yourself, but with a person you can trust, who doesn't have a dog in the fight. People can trust when they come to me, as I hope they can trust talking to their bartender that what they're saying is going to be held in confidence and received with compassion.  

Dan Pashman: You tweeted a photo recently of two cocktails at a bar in Chicago, and you wrote, I'm not going to pronounce this correctly, but, stat crux dum volvitur orbis. What does that mean? 

Father Bill Dailey: That is the motto of the Carthusian Order. The Carthusian Order of Monks from Chartreuse, France. They were founded in 1085.  And since the early 18th century, they've been producing green chartreuse. And on every bottle of green chartreuse, there's a cross on an orb, a globe, which is their insignia. The motto, stat crux, the cross stands, dum volvitur orbis, while the globe turns. It's about the stability of the faith and of the cross amidst all that changes in the world that brings us anxiety, that makes us, that knocks us off our path. 

Dan Pashman: But I'm curious, like with Green Chartreuse and the monks, there's the Belgian Trappist monks, what do you think it is? There is this amazing history of religious figures for hundreds of years creating these amazing alcoholic concoctions.

Father Bill Dailey: Historically, priests were, you know, uh, for many centuries, the most educated person in the village or in the room, just by dint of, they were the only person with such professional, um, training or education. They were also, um, The apothecary in town. Now, medicine was terrible in those days, and green chartreuse seemed to be as good a bet as anything to make you well.

Father Bill Dailey: What the heck, if your cousin was sick, take him to the monk, he'll give him some green chartreuse, at least he'll feel better on some dimension. 

Dan Pashman: Can I tell you the story about the time that I went to the Vatican? 

Father Bill Dailey: Sure.  

Dan Pashman: So I was there, I was a college kid, you know, backpacking around Europe, and of course I wanted to see the Vatican, so I go to St. Peter's Cathedral. So it's an amazing sight, and I go to go into the church to see it, and they wouldn't let me in because I was wearing shorts. 

Dan Pashman: I found it somewhat disappointing. After I was denied entry to the church, I went over to the Sistine Chapel and there was, I don't know if it's still there, but there was a suggestion box at the Sistine Chapel. So I, being young and full of hubris,  couldn't resist putting a note in the suggestion box and I wrote something to the effect of, I thought God Loves everybody. If so, why can't I get into the holiest catholic church based on what I'm wearing? I should certainly hope that St. Peter doesn't have any address code at the gates of heaven. Which may have been an obnoxious thing to say, but I said it. 

Father Bill Dailey: I certainly understand that sentiment, but there is another side which says If you know you're going to a very special place, why wouldn't you expect to, you wouldn't go to, to dinner at Danielle, right, with cut off shorts. But it might have been an 80 degree day in Rome, and I think they've relaxed that rule a little bit. And if not, if you left your suggestion with Pope Francis, my goodness, he would probably tweet it and, and buy you a Peroni.  

Dan Pashman: Well, I put the suggestion in the suggestion box and I went back outside and a bird pooped on me. So, I don't know if…

Father Bill Dailey: This must have been during the pontificate of Pope Benedict. I love Pope Benedict, that's merely a joke. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: That's Father William Dailey. A couple more notes on Green Chartreuse, that's the liqueur invented by those French monks that he referenced. First fun trivia, we get the shade of green that we call chartreuse from the drink, green chartreuse. That's how old this drink is, it was a drink before it was a color.

Dan Pashman: As far as how it tastes, like, it's very strong but also sweet, very herbal, sort of like, it smells like a pine tree. And, and I mean that as a compliment because I happen to be on a huge Green Chartreuse kick right now. Ever since I was on this podcast called Let's Drink About It, they made me a cocktail called A Lawn Dart that has Green Chartreuse, gin, tequila, lime juice, agave syrup, and wait for it, muddled bell peppers. 

Dan Pashman: It is amazing. It's strong and sweet, but beyond that, I can't really describe it to you because it doesn't taste like anything else you've ever tasted in your life. So just go and make one for yourself. Also, it's green, so it's perfect for St. Patrick's Day. We'll post the recipes for the Lawn Dart and for Father Bill's Gaelic Flip at sporkful.com. 

Dan Pashman: My thanks to Sinead and Scott and everyone at Churchill's. The reason why we did this St. Patrick's themed interview at an English pub was that we needed a place where they would let Father Bill get behind the bar and actually make some drinks. Mrs. Sporkful and Sinead are old friends. Sinead was nice enough to make it happen.

Dan Pashman: And I gotta say, the fish and chips at Churchill's? Outstanding. The fries, or chips, alone. I mean, those are worth a visit. They might be in my top five fries in my life, and I don't say that lightly, okay, so check out Churchill's.