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Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. And today we are taking your calls about your food disputes with friends and loved ones. We'll also hear your food hot takes. And through it all, we will not be afraid to take sides. 

Dan Pashman: Joining me to ride shotgun for this episode is someone who's no stranger to strong opinions. As a long time sports TV personality, she comes from a world full of rivalries and head to head conflict. She's hosted shows on ESPN and Fox Sports. These days she's hosting a great new podcast about sports and culture called Casuals, right here at SiriusXM.

Dan Pashman: Big welcome to Katie Nolan!

Katie Nolan: Thank you for having me.

Dan Pashman: Hey, Katie.

Katie Nolan: Hi.

Dan Pashman: So listen, in just a few minutes, we're going to chat with some listeners who have food related relationship issues. We're going to tackle some hot takes.

Katie Nolan: Okay.

Dan Pashman: But first, let's just take a minute and chat. Let's hang out. Let's get to know you and food.

Katie Nolan: Oh, yeah.

Dan Pashman: All right, because ahead of this past Super Bowl, you took part in the Great American Baking Show.

Katie Nolan: Oh, yeah.

Dan Pashman: Celebrity Big Game Edition, where you competed against current and former NFL stars like Tony Gonzalez, DK Metcalf, as well as the actor, Amy Smart. First off, like, going into this competition, what was your level of baking expertise?

Katie Nolan: Zero. Absolutely zero. I have a sister in law who taught me a lot right before I left. 

Dan Pashman: So you practiced? You trained? 

Katie Nolan: A little. But I got a tiny kitchen. I live in Manhattan. I don't have a KitchenAid standing mixer. I've never used one of those before. So she taught me a little bit. She was like, this is butter.

Katie Nolan: This is flour. These go in here. Right. but as far as practice, I sort of just was like, Let's let it be authentic.

Katie Nolan: I told them when they booked me. 

Dan Pashman: Right.  And you were an athlete in high school too, right? 

Katie Nolan: Yeah, I played softball. 

Dan Pashman: So did your background as an athlete inform the way you prepared for this baking competition? 

Katie Nolan: Um, no, [LAUGHS] because I'm looking at it and I'm like, I was competing against athletes.

Dan Pashman: Right, right.

Katie Nolan: So the edge was not going to be in, in that, uh, in that way. My edge was that I was like, I, um, care. I really care about this. I don't want to lose. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Katie Nolan: Um, which actually I was surprised to find like, The athletes bring that same mentality with them, no matter what they're doing. 

Dan Pashman: Well, that's so that's interesting. And you were up against DK Metcalf, great wide receiver, Tony Gonzalez, a Hall of Fame tight end, one of the all time greats. So like,  I guess it's got to be in your personality. If you're that great at a sport, you have to be the kind of person who's so competitive and is driven to excel at whatever you're going to do.

Katie Nolan: Yeah. Like, DK, I was very surprised to see, cause like you said, a great wide receiver, currently playing, like, doing well, um, I thought he would just be like, I'm here so I don't get fined. I'm here just to collect whatever… My agent said to do this, so I'm doing this, um, but he was like, upset any time there was like a part where we were judged, if he wasn't judged to be the best, he was like, huffy about it. I could genuinely tell, like, this guy's pissed off. He wanted to win, and he's like, well, I didn't come here to lose. And I love that. I love that.

Dan Pashman: Right. And so you, uh, you made whoopie pies. You're a Massachusetts native. Whoopie pies are a New England thing. 

Katie Nolan: I thought, I think. I think so. I think.

Dan Pashman: We should say in case folks from other parts of the country don’t know, it’s like a chocolate cake sandwich with some kind of buttercream frosting.

Katie Nolan: This was like a Swiss butter cream orange something

Dan Pashman: Um, but you made them shaped like footballs. 

Katie Nolan: Yes

Dan Pashman: How did your whoopie pies come out?

Katie Nolan: I won that challenge, Everybody was impressed, I was shocked. Like they eat it in front of you, it was like a blind challenge, so the judges don’t know who baked what. So they’re eating them and giving honest feedback and got to mine and were like, this is delicious. I sat up straight, I was like, Mine?

Dan Pashman: In your face, DK Metcalf. 

Katie Nolan: Mine are delicious? I was pretty proud of myself. I did not win the whole competition, but I won that little challenge. That's something. And I didn't think I was going to leave having won anything. So I'm very, very proud. I will, my family now says I have to make those at the next family function.

Katie Nolan: And I was like, I can't remember how I did that. I blacked out for most of it. We'll see.

Dan Pashman: Alright Katie, one more thing we gotta cover.

Katie Nolan: Okay.

Dan Pashman: A few years back you took part in a taste test where you were served a Thanksgiving dinner prepared according to the recipes in Tom Brady's cookbook.

Katie Nolan: Oh my god.

Dan Pashman: Obviously, a lot of athletes are careful about what they eat, but Tom Brady was famous for going

Katie Nolan: Above and beyond. 

Dan Pashman: Right. I mean, like, he wouldn't eat tomatoes. 

Katie Nolan: No strawberries. 

Dan Pashman: Correct. Because he thought they, like, increased inflammation. I mean, uh, uh, I mean, just so incredibly extreme. His personal trainer was once asked, Does Tom ever get a treat? Once in a while, get the guy a treat. And the trainer said, of course we will give him a treat. You know, if he wants a treat, he has avocado ice cream. I think I'm going to cry just saying those words. So you ate this Thanksgiving dinner, prepared according to the recipes in his cookbook. How was it?

Katie Nolan: Awful. Awful. And that is no shade to the lovely staff at the ESPN campus who, like, cooked us these horrendous recipes. It was awful. 

Dan Pashman: What made it so bad? 

Katie Nolan: It was just flavorless. It was, um, it felt like trying, it was trying to be food, but it wasn't. It was just like different quinoas and vegetables, but they were pretending to be. Where it lost me, is they were pretending to be something else.

Dan Pashman: Oh, so they're like, oh, it's stuffing, but there's no bread.

Katie Nolan: This is just like your mom's mac and cheese. I promise it's not going to be. As it does not have mac or cheese in it. 

Dan Pashman: Right, or probably no butter. 

Katie Nolan: Yeah, so it was, um, you know, if it works for him, that's great. It gave – he had a long career, very successful. 

Dan Pashman: This is something I've always wondered about him. I mean, like, I'm sure he would tell you it was worth it.

Katie Nolan: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: I mean, he only won seven Super Bowls. 

Katie Nolan: Only. 

Dan Pashman: And all that time he ate no ice cream.

Katie Nolan: Crazy. I'd rather eat ice cream than win one Super Bowl. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Katie Nolan: I don't want to live a life. He's never had coffee. I don't, I just don't want to live a life where I'm not, I mean, I'm too often indulging in what I want. I'm eating exactly what I want all the time, which is also a bad thing you shouldn't do. But I would much rather do that and know how good it is to eat like a steak. covered in butter with like cream spinach and mashed potatoes than to be like, this is tofu, but it's shaped like a turkey. And…

Dan Pashman: It's hard for me to trust someone with that much willpower.

Katie Nolan: Yes. It's like, well, what else can you get yourself to do or not? You're not weak in the face of a delicious treat? I don't trust you. What is your..? 

Dan Pashman: Exactly. You're some sort of Manchurian candidate. 

Katie Nolan: You're not like me. Right. It's not the same. You're operating on a different plane. Right. And I can't, yeah, I can't relate.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 100%. 

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Dan Pashman: All right, Katie. I think we're warmed up. Are you ready to help some sporkful listeners who have food related relationship issues, disagreements, hot takes? Are you ready to take them all on?

Katie Nolan: Yes. I'm ready. I hope to solve some problems.

Dan Pashman: Ok, all right. So here's the first one.

Pam: Hi, my name is Pam Micelles and I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And my football food take is that wine is a much better pick than beer for football festivities. For one, it doesn't fill your belly up as much as beer does. Second, if you properly select like all the wines you have with all the foods you're going to serve, then your food wine combos will taste so much more fantastic and you'll likely end up with such a wide range of wines that any guest should find when they like, um, I have more points but those are the two that are the most important to me so that's my hot take. Wine is better than beer for football foods. Thanks. Love The Sporkful.

Dan Pashman: Katie, this seems like it's right up your alley. you partook in a nine beer, nine hotdog, nine inning challenge.

Katie Nolan: Uh huh.

Dan Pashman: So, that's a nine inning baseball game to have one hotdog and one beer every inning.

Katie Nolan: Yeah, you can paste it however you want. You can do, like, three in the first inning and whatever, but yes, over the course of nine innings, you try to drink nine beers and eat nine hot dogs. I think I got to, like, seven and eight. It was very difficult. 

Dan Pashman: See, now, I could eat nine hot dogs. 

Katie Nolan: You think? 

Dan Pashman: I think I could, I think I really think I could eat nine hot dogs. Yeah. Um, you know, on the right day with the right preparation. Yeah. But I could not do that while drinking nine beers. 

Katie Nolan: It’s a lot. The, the, the room in your stomach is, uh, you run out very quick. You don't realize how much the liquid is going to take up a lot of space. 

Dan Pashman: That's a lot of what Pam in Pittsburgh here is saying. So what do you think?

Katie Nolan: I think Pam makes a very strong argument. Um, I think that the, the not filling you up is her best argument, the pairing with the food, also a great argument the other side of that is, what keeps me from having wine with my sports stuff is I don't have the wine knowledge, so I think like, you'd have to have the wine knowledge to pair the food with the wine, I think the reason wine hasn't caught on as a football drink yet is the, is the difficulty of wine just as like for access. I think it's a lot easier to be like, I'll take a Bud Light than like, what do you have for a red?

Katie Nolan: But the other thing is it's the way you drink it. It's always got to be in like a glass. Wine in a cup feels wrong. 

Dan Pashman: I'm a big New York Giants football fan. At Giants games, at the vending, uh, kiosk, they sell wine in a can now.

Katie Nolan: Oh, okay. So I stand corrected. 

Dan Pashman: I'll also say that I once interviewed the famous chef and TV personality Jacques Pepin, uh, at his house in Connecticut. And I'm not a huge wine drinker, but at the end of the taping, he was like, do you want a glass of wine? And I was like, well. I'm gonna drink a glass of wine with Jacques Pepin, of course. First of all, he told me that he often drinks wine out of a paper cup.

Katie Nolan: Okay.

Dan Pashman: He also drinks wine over ice in the afternoon.

Katie Nolan: Huh.

Dan Pashman: Which is delicious. 

Katie Nolan: I thought that wasn't allowed. I agree it's delicious, but I thought we weren't supposed to do that. 

Dan Pashman: If Jacques Pepin says it's okay, then it's okay. 

Katie Nolan: I’m gonna say that now all the time. 

Dan Pashman: Right, I think that the reasons you cite for why beer is more associated with football are true, but I think there's another reason that would be interesting to address. Which is that there's a lot of like masculinity machismo around football and beer. There's a perception – this is changing somewhat but it's still there certainly – that beer is like a man's man drink and wine is like somehow she she and you know…

Katie Nolan: Yeah. You can’t chug wine.

Dan Pashman: Right, I mean you can, right. But I wonder how that plays into some of these perceptions.

Katie Nolan: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. But I, I think you're, you said it's changing. I think it is a little. I also think like, especially with the Taylor Swift of it all, bringing, uh, getting more young women interested in football. Granted, I know they're there because of her, but maybe they stick around. Maybe it becomes more of a wine drinking, um, place. I'm open to the idea, especially now that I know I can put ice in it.

Dan Pashman: There you go. 

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Dan Pashman: All right, Katie, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to take a live call from a married couple that has been having the same food related argument for 17 years.

Katie Nolan: Ooh. 

Dan Pashman: We're going to see if we can finally resolve it. All right, we'll be right back.

+++BREAK+++

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Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman, and in January I announced that I’m going back to Italy this fall to lead another pasta tour, and since I made that announcement, 8 of the 12 spots on the trip have been booked. So get on it! Come eat pasta with me in Italy, you’ll dine in Rome with Katie Parla, we’ll have spaghetti all’assassina in Bari, and I love that this tour takes you to Puglia, which is an area that not many food tours in Italy go to, it’s beautiful and they have so many great regional specialties for us to try. So book your spot before it’s too late, go to culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful.

Dan Pashman: All right, Katie, are you ready to help some sporkful listeners who are embroiled in a very serious food related feud?

Katie Nolan: A food fight, if you will? 

Dan Pashman: That's right, that's right. Trademark. 

Katie Nolan: I'm ready. 

Dan Pashman: All right, let's go to the phones. Hi, who's this?

Zach: Hey Dan, it's Zach Brooks.

Dan Pashman: Zach! My old friend, Zach Brooks. Long time Sporkful listeners will remember you from a time you were on the show in, what was that, about 2013 probably?

Zach: That sounds like it could be true.

Dan Pashman: You had a food podcast called Food is the New Rock with chefs and musicians that was so great and now you're running Smorgasburg in LA, right?

Zach: Yes.Yes. 

Dan Pashman: And I gather we're also joined by your lovely wife.

Sarah: Hi, I'm Sarah. 

Dan Pashman: Nice to meet you. Say hello to my friend Katie over here.

Katie: Hi, Sarah

Sarah:. Hey, Katie. 

Dan Pashman: Uh, so before we get into the matter at hand, I do want to check in. You guys are in L.A. How are you doing?

Zach: We're fine. Thank you for asking. Uh, you know, the city is, getting back to normal, you know, with air quotes around normal, of course, and, uh, I am super grateful to have the job I have at Smorgasburg, which sort of put me at the front lines of seeing the restaurant community respond just immediately when the fires first happen and continue to respond on a week to week basis, feeding people in need, being there for the community. It really is an amazing thing to see the, you know, the hospitality community, uh, do what they do best.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. No, I do. I do feel like people who get into the restaurant business really love taking care of people. And it comes out in times like this.

Zach: A hundred percent. And it's, I mean, the sad thing is that, you know, it has been a tough time for the restaurant industry, even beyond the fires, especially here in L.A. And this certainly does not help, and it's even crazier to see the people who sort of can help the least, helping the most. 

Dan Pashman: I’m glad you guys are doing okay. Um, it's time now to get into, uh, some more hard hitting stuff though, okay? Sarah, do you want to set this up for us? What's going on? Talk to us. 

Sarah: I would love to. Because I…

Zach: I already regret my decision, Dan, this was a huge mistake, I can tell already.

[LAUGHTER]

Sarah: Well, I, I just fear if Zach were to be the one to introduce it, he would, uh, you know, mischaracterize his argument or the feud that's really been raging for probably 17 years now. So, yeah, if, if I may… This, this all started, I would say, yeah, 17 or 18 years ago, when my, my dear husband, um, and we lived in Hell's Kitchen and there was a place that sold dollar slices of pizza. So, as I recall he would frequently stop by the dollar slice of pizza, you know, maybe before we would have dinner, and he would say, well, you know, I just had a snack, right? His argument was, the price of the thing made it a snack.  My argument was, a pizza is not a snack. It's a, it's a meal and the price of the thing doesn't matter.  And so Zach's argument has evolved over time, right? It has to be adjusted for inflation. 

[LAUGHER]

Sarah: Now he'll say,  Well, anything under two dollars is a snack.

Dan Pashman: So, just to understand Sarah, Sarah, you're basically saying that, uh, it's the type of food that dictates whether it's a snack or a meal. And Zach is saying that the price can be what makes it a snack. Zach, let me hear your side of this.

Zach: My argument was, a dollar slice is a snack. And I was told that is definitely not a snack, a slice of pizza is not a snack. And I was like, listen, if you're talking about a gigantic slice of pizza, that might not be a snack, but a dollar slice is definitely a snack if for no other reason that it costs a dollar. And then my arrogance took over and I was like, I'll be even willing to say anything that costs a dollar is a snack just by virtue of it being a dollar.

Zach: And now it's 17 years later and I am even more arrogant than before, and now I'm willing to say that anything that's 2 dollars could be considered a snack because it… Now I'm not saying that all snacks have to cost 2 dollars, I'm just saying that anything that costs 2 dollars or less can be considered a snack because realistically, what are you going to get for 2 or less? Because even a dollar slice of pizza is not a big slice of pizza. It is a smaller slice. 

Sarah: But that's just not true. Go to Costco. The Costco slices of pizza are objectively huge. That is not a snack by any stretch of the imagination. Let me finish. It is a dollar 99 and remains a dollar 99, the hot dog is a dollar 50. Also not a snack.  

Zach: It's a snack boy. That's a snack.

Dan Pashman: Katie, you have a question for, for this pair?

Katie Nolan: Yeah. I've, if it's, if, let's say in a, a hypothetical, the dollar slice is 5 dollars. Do you then consider that, Zach, a meal, or does it stay a snack? It's just an overpriced snack?

Zach: I think that the argument, I can't say definitively one way or another. 

Katie Nolan: Convenient.

Zach: [LAUGHS] My cause that's the thing is that my argument was merely, merely stating that anything that is a dollar or two dollars or less is a snack.

Sarah: Your argument is unraveling, dude. I mean…

Zach: If the slice costs 5 dollars, I would expect it to be bigger.

Sarah: My argument is, it doesn't matter what the price of the thing is, it's either a snack or it's not. 

Zach: Name something in the real world, name something in the real world you could buy for less than two dollars that wouldn't, couldn't be considered a snack.

Sarah: I just named two things, the Costco slice of pizza, which is huge, and the Costco hot dog.

Zach: I think that's over two dollars. 

Sarah: It is not. I looked it up.

Zach: But the hot dog is a dollar 50. 

Sarah: It is a dollar 99. 

Dan Pashman: If a slice of pizza was healthy, then could a 1 dollar slice of pizza be a snack?

Sarah: it’s not. So there are healthy things that are snacks, like nuts, or chips and hummus. He snacks on carrot sticks and hummus. That’s a great and appropriate snack

Katie Nolan: What if he ate the whole Sabra thing of hummus, not an individual ones, 

Dan Pashman: Like the tub. 

Katie Nolan: What if he ate the whole thing of that with pretzels before a meal, is that a snack?

Sarah: It's still a snack, that’s where my logic makes sense, you can eat an entire bucket of popcorn that costs whatever 10-15  dollars at the movie theater, it still doesn't make it a meal.

Dan Pashman: The quantity, it's not the quantity? What if he ate a family sized tub of hummus, like a Costco level bucket of hummus? And he said, For dinner, honey I’m having hummus, and he got a soup spoon and a bucket of hummus, and he said: I’m full, great dinner, I’m going up to bed, you’d be like, You didn’t even have dinner, you had a snack?

Sarah: Maybe, that’s just gross.

Zach: Can I just, can I just say that you guys, you should be therapists, because I have to say, in the 20 years we've been having this argument, I finally, at this very moment, realized what the difference in our argument is, and what you're saying, my dear wife, who I love very much, is a hundred percent true. 

Sarah: What? 

Zach: If you, if you define, if you're defining the word snack as a, like an adjective to define a kind of food, like a snack food, like a category of food, you are correct. 

Sarah: What? Are you conceding the argument?

Zach: I was defining it merely as a thing that you would eat as a snack. And a giant tub of popcorn, like, you know, three tons of popcorn, under my definition, would not be a snack. It's too much food to eat at three o'clock in the afternoon as a snack. But it is snack food. Popcorn is snack food. Pizza is not snack food. Pizza is not snack food. 

Sarah: What is happening? 

Katie Nolan:  Look at her mind being blown. 

Dan Pashman: Sarah looks very taken aback. 

Zach: But a small slice of pizza can be eaten as a snack. We did it, guys. We did it. We're both right. We're both right. This is, I'm trying to save my marriage, guys. Can we both be right, please?

[LAUGHTER]

Dan Pashman: Zach, you're saying that you, you want this to end where you're both right. To me, it feels like you're both wrong. 

Katie Nolan: Woo!

Dan Pashman: Because you coined the right term, Zach, snack food. You're taking one word that really has two different definitions, okay? The word snack can refer to a type of food, a category of food. Snack foods, like popcorn, chips, et cetera, what you were saying, Sarah. But then there's also snack, which is like a type of eating occasion, different from a meal.

Dan Pashman: A meal is a full portion. A snack is something smaller to tide you over between meals. When you think of a snack as an eating occasion, to me it should be defined by the quantity. What separates a snack from a meal is that it's smaller, and typically eaten at a time of day that's not a mealtime.

Dan Pashman: You're right, Sarah, that we think of certain foods as being snack foods, but, like, I'll eat chicken for breakfast, if that's what's in the fridge, and I'm in the mood for it. You know, I'll eat cereal for dinner. A lot of these distinctions are arbitrary, uh, or, or cultural. So, yeah, I love tortilla chips, but, like, you know, sometimes if I'm not that hungry, but it's lunchtime, I'll have tortilla chips, or pita, and hummus, and that'll be my lunch. Was that a snack? No, it was my lunch, So, I think that a slice of pizza is absolutely a snack if you're only eating one slice because a snack is based on quantity. And one slice of pizza to me is not a meal.

Katie Nolan: It's not enough food to be a meal.

Dan Pashman: That said, you're right, Sarah, that a slice of pizza does not fit into our cultural definition of what is a snack food. 

Sarah: Okay. I mean, going back to his original hypothesis, It's the – his hypothesis is the price of the thing makes it a snack or not, which is… 

Zach: Something that can be eaten at snack time.

Sarah: I just want to hear the words, Zach is wrong and then I can move on. 

Dan Pashman: Forget the price. The price doesn't dictate if it's a snack. If it's 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and you're between meals, and you're hungry, and you're not having dinner until 7:30, and you get a single cheeseburger from McDonald's.

Katie Nolan: That’s a snack. A single McDonald's cheeseburger is a snack. I'm so sorry, it is. It is because it's so small. 

Sarah: Is it really?

Katie Nolan: So small. 

Dan Pashman: A snack is defined by quantity. Not price and not type of food is defined by quantity.

Katie Nolan: I know, I feel like I've lost you. I feel like you're... 

Dan Pashman: That's why I'm saying they're both wrong.

Katie Nolan: Yeah, you guys both might be wrong. But at least you're together. 

Zach: I'm fine with that. I'm fine with…

Katie Nolan: You're sharing a drink called wrongness.

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Dan Pashman: Zach and Sarah in LA, uh, I hope that you enjoy your next dollar slice of pizza, whether it's for a snack or a meal.

Sarah: Okay. Thank you. 

Zach: Thank you, Dan.

Katie Nolan: Bye, guys.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So Katie, what do you think? Do you think that they're gonna let this argument go?

Katie Nolan: No. I don't. But, also, did you see how sad they seemed when it felt like we might have solved it? 

[LAUGHTER]

Katie Nolan: Where they both were like, well then now what are we? So I almost feel like this argument existing and continuing to exist is good for them.

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

Katie Nolan: And I feel like all it really was, you're just looking for permission to eat a tiny slice of pizza before you're done. That's all it is. 

Dan Pashman: And doesn't every successful couple need a 17 year long argument over something totally stupid? 

Katie Nolan: Yes! About something stupid that doesn't matter at all. That like, even when asked to define what your side of the argument is, you're kind of like, I don't really know. I don't know, but I believe it has to be! But I will not back down, so I thought it was great. It was a perfect glimpse into, into a relationship dynamic.

Dan Pashman: That's right. Alright, so hey, can we hear from a couple more listeners?

Katie Nolan: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Alright, let's go to another voice memo.

Gina: My name is Gina. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio, and I am one of those people who is cursed to dislike cilantro because it tastes like soap.

Gina: And my hot take is, just as there are gluten free menus or other allergy menus, I feel there should be a cilantro-free menu. I feel that this is not only something that will improve my enjoyment, but help reduce food waste, because it has happened many times that I have even mentioned to a server that I'm trying to avoid things with cilantro, and it still ends up in my food.

Dan Pashman: So, I mean, are you familiar with this issue, Katie? 

Katie Nolan: Yes, I am. I'm deeply familiar.

Dan Pashman: Do you have it?

Katie Nolan: Yes.

Dan Pashman: Wow! for the listeners who don't know, uh, it's just a, it's a genetic thing. Some people are born with a gene that cilantro just tastes like soap, uh, and it makes anything with cilantro unpalatable. Is that right? 

Katie Nolan: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: And so tell me about it, tell me.

Katie Nolan: So I have this. I, um, I feel like cilantro, and this is just my personal experience. I feel like it started popping up like, in all of the stuff, not that long ago, maybe like 15, 10 years ago, it started like being in when you got guacamole, it was obviously with cilantro, the rice at Chipotle has cilantro, like it just… is now everywhere.

Katie Nolan: And I at first was like, I don't know what it is about this green stuff. I don't like it. Then I come to find out there's a genetic thing, and some people don't like it, and some people… Now we've reached the stage, there's backlash. Now I've started to notice the world is like, Shut up about your gene that makes it taste like soap.

Dan Pashman: Really?

Katie Nolan: Get over it! You're just being a baby. So, I've tried to embrace cilantro more, um, it's not going well. I also have this problem with spicy food. I would love to love spicy food. I would love to want to eat it.

Katie Nolan: I'd love to go on Hot Ones and eat as many spicy wings, increasing in spiciness, as I can. It hurts. It physically hurts my mouth. And so I would say, with cilantro, I'm like It's easier to power through it. If somebody makes me something and it has cilantro in it, I don't have to go like, oh, this is awkward, I can't eat this.

Katie Nolan: I'll eat it, and I'll just be like, Mmmh, and it tastes like soap, but I'll, once you get through it, I can sort of push that to the back of my mind, my taste mind, if that makes sense, and I can keep going.

Dan Pashman: In terms of spicy food, I can tell you, look, I didn't grow up eating a lot of spicy food and, I too used to not be able to handle any spice. And I know that with spice, it's just a matter of exposure.

Katie Nolan: Really?

Dan Pashman: You just have to start with a very small amount. Get yourself a bottle of Sriracha or Cholula or whatever. 

Katie Nolan: Cholula, I like Cholula.

Dan Pashman: Start off with just a drop.

Katie Nolan: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Just a drop on anything and then get to two drops and three drops and eventually you will acquire a taste for it.

Katie Nolan: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: Um, it just, it'll just take you a few years. You know, that's why I ask you if you can handle even a small amount of cilantro because I feel like, you know, um, sensory scientists would call it exposure therapy. And so, I wonder, I wonder if exposure therapy would work with cilantro.

Katie Nolan: I think it probably has. I think the thing that I'm saying I do, which is like not send something back about cilantro, I think has probably raised my tolerance for it, or it's at least made me go like, Maybe soap can taste good sometimes Maybe a little soap isn't the worst thing in the world to taste. 

Dan Pashman: Right. So just to conclude this topic, Katie, Gina in Cleveland, she is arguing for a cilantro free menu. She believes just as there's gluten free options, there's vegetarian options, that this should be clearly labeled. It should be something restaurants make available. What do you say?

Katie Nolan: I think you're going to, it's going to be an uphill battle because of the backlash that we're currently experiencing as a community.

[LAUGHTER]

Katie Nolan: But I think, I think if you stay strong, I think, look, if you can make a menu that's gluten free, make a menu that's cilantro free, I think you can find one place that will do it. I think it's not a terrible idea. And I wish her the best in her endeavor. I hope that somebody does that for her. It's not a terrible idea.

Dan Pashman: All right, Katie, this hot take comes in the form of an email from Taylor in Columbus, Nebraska, and he says, you only need to wash vegetables when they have visible dirt on them.

Katie Nolan: Mh.

Dan Pashman: The rest is all make believe. He says. Examples of what to wash. Mushrooms. You gotta wipe off with a damp cloth. Celery. Leeks. Some potatoes. Herbs from your garden. He says that psychopaths wash everything else. Perfectly clean bell peppers. Pristine broccoli. Herbs. Already wet cilantro from that misty section in the supermarket. Wash away food dirt that you see or feel. The rest is a waste of time.

Katie Nolan: Huh. I don't know if I agree. I've seen this debate about washing. Chicken, and I've never, I grew up in a house where you took it right out of that slimy package and you used it because you're going to cook it, so you'll cook off whatever's on it, but I've seen lately a lot of people wash their… And then with washing their chicken, there's also on TikTok, a whole, people make whole swaths of content about washing and preparing and storing their vegetables, so I already feel a little behind the eight ball and like, am I supposed to be washing everything?

Katie Nolan: So this kind of makes me, Taylor makes me feel a little bit relieved? But broccoli, I feel like you have to wash. I feel like lettuce, aren't you supposed to wash and then you spin it in your salad spinner?

Dan Pashman: You can't, I mean, so, first off, quick note, as far as chicken goes, you really shouldn't wash chicken.

Katie Nolan: Good. Because it splashes, right? 

Dan Pashman: It splashes. If there's bacteria on the chicken, you wash it, it's splashing little droplets of bacteria everywhere. You're not cleaning at all. 

Katie Nolan: That’s what I thought. You just won an argument for me that I will be loving this. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, take that. There you go.

Katie Nolan: Thank you.

Dan Pashman: I'm gonna say I'm with Taylor.

Katie Nolan: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: I think that, uh, if you can see or taste or feel in your fingers or mouth dirt, then wash it off.

Dan Pashman: Look, all I can tell you is that I had to take my younger daughter to the doctor a few months back. She had like an ear infection or something. And the doctor literally was like, Wow, I never see the Pashman girls in here except for your annual physicals. You guys are never sick.

Katie Nolan: Yeah, so you're doing it right.

Dan Pashman: So look, with the caveat that I'm not a doctor or, or, Public health professional at all. 

Katie Nolan: But you have a podcast, so it's kind of the same thing now.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, nobody has those. It's really hard to get them, Katie.

[LAUGHTER]

Dan Pashman: And so, uh, so that's how I do it. And my kids have good immune systems.

Katie Nolan: Yeah, ok. I think Taylor's got a good point. You don't have to wash it all.

Dan Pashman: And anyone who, uh, if you end up in the emergency room because you've got some sort of bacteria, you can reach out to Katie.

Katie Nolan: No. No, not liable. Wash everything. Especially your hands.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Well, Katie Nolan, this was a pleasure.

Katie Nolan: The pleasure was all mine.

Dan Pashman: I hope the folks will check out your new podcast, Casuals, which I really enjoy. It's a great hang. It's sports. It's culture. You have comedians. You have athletes. It's for people who are interested in sports but also like to have fun and interested in all different things which I think describes a lot of us.

Katie Nolan: What a perfect pitch. Yeah, it's for it's like if you think sports aren't for you, but you wanted to get into them, we're here to help. We just want everybody to be able to know about sports and have it feel accessible. 

Dan Pashman: I also love that it's a safe space to talk about sports and Taylor Swift.

Katie Nolan: Yes, it's anything… We talk about all of it! 

Dan Pashman: Which is like, that defines my household. 

Katie Nolan: Yes, it's just – it's sports are for everybody. And I think we do a pretty bad job of that in sports media. So the goal of casuals is like if you think you might like it, come here with we don't care what you know, or what you don't know. We're just here to have fun about all of it.

Dan Pashman: Well, it's a great show. People check it out wherever you get your podcast. It's called Casuals. Thanks again, Katie Nolan.

Katie Nolan: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This was awesome.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show my guest is Michele Zauner, the singer and songwriter behind the band Japanese Breakfast, and author of the bestselling memoir, Crying in H Mart. While you wait for that one check out last week’s show with Laurie Woolever. She was an assistant to Anthony Bourdain and Mario Batali. In a new book she talks in depth about those experiences, and shares her own story for the first time, that one’s up now.

Dan Pashman: Finally remember that if you want to come eat pasta with me in Italy this fall, the spots are filling up! Book yours now at culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful.