Laura: We also didn't have cereal with milk, so I think ... 

Dan Pashman: Your whole growing up, you never ate cereal with milk?

Laura: I still never have.

Beth: No. 

Dan Pashman: You've never in your life — how old are you?

Laura: We’re 27. 

Dan Pashman: This is Laura and Beth. They’re twin sisters — and they’re very picky eaters.

Dan Pashman: What’s another food that most people would consider commonplace that you’ve never tried?

Laura: How much time do you have? That's a big question. 

Dan Pashman: All the time in the world, Beth.

[LAUGHING] 

Laura: Cauliflower … 

Beth: No.

Laura: Broccoli … 

Beth: No.

Laura: Peppers … 

Beth: No.

Laura: Squash … 

Beth: No.

Laura: Pumpkins … 

Beth: No.

Dan Pashman: What about mac and cheese?

Beth: Mmm, not really.

Dan Pashman: Plain pasta with butter?

Beth: Not with butter, but I like it with whatever red sauce that is.

Dan Pashman: Have you ever had soup?

Beth: Ehh, it’s just like water with flavor. It doesn’t seem that appetizing. No. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Beth and Laura grew up as picky eaters and that was just fine with their parents.

Laura: My parents met at a talent show for accountants.

Dan Pashman: This is already the best beginning [Laura: Right] of a story that’s ever been told in my life. 

[LAUGHING] 

Laura: I know! They’re so excellent. My dad was the writer of the show. My mom had tried to come in to play the bassoon, but they forced her to be a dancer because she was just tall. And he asked her out on a date. And they went on their first date to McDonald’s. And apparently, back at the time at Mcdonald's, like, you couldn’t be like, I want pickles and this and this. They just gave you a hamburger.

Dan Pashman: You couldn’t have it your way.

Laura: Right, right.

Dan Pashman: Have it your way might actually be the Burger King slogan but let’s not split hairs.

Laura: Oh no. Uh-oh.

Beth: Oh. 

Dan Pashman: You get the idea. 

Beth: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Anyway, they get their burgers ... 

Laura: So they get their burgers, they both sit down from across each other. They unwrap and they both pulled open the burgers and wiped off — as my dad would still call it this to this day, green stuff —  all of the pickles, all of the relish, like anything on there because they don’t eat it at all. They both wiped it off at the same time. 

MUSIC 

Laura: And were like, this is it. That’s how they knew. 

Dan Pashman: They gazed into each other’s eyes.

Beth: That’s what our father says, yeah. 

Laura: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And in that moment … 

Laura: Yeah, they knew.

Dan Pashman: That was love.

Laura: That was love. 

Beth: Yes. 

Laura: My parents found in each other that they were picky eaters. Which is, I think, more intense of a kindred spiritedness than people might realize. If you’re not a picky eater, you don’t realize how important it would be to be with a fellow picky eater. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies, it’s for eaters. I’m Dan Pashman… Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. I’ve already kicked off my Sporkful Live: Anything’s Pastable tour! Thank you so much to everyone who has come out! It's been great to meet so many of you in person. Next up, we got D.C. tomorrow night, April 2nd with Pati Jinich — can't wait for that. Then Philly at WHYY with Kae Lani Palmisano — and I was gonna say Boston, but the Boston show is already sold out! And these tickets for these other shows are going fast — San Francisco, Seattle, L.A — get your tickets now at sporkful.com/tour.

Dan Pashman: And of course, you can still order my cookbook, Anything’s Pastable! It’s out now wherever books are sold. I did especially love the review from Library Journal. They said, " If Will Wonka and Alton Brown collaborated on a pasta cookbook, the end result might be something like this — revolutionary in all the right way." So that was very nice. Thank you Library Journal. And of course, if you want to know more about the making of this book, go back and check out out special series about the making of Anything’s Pastable, right here on The Sporkful. It's up now. 

Dan Pashman: All right, let’s get to today’s show. Laura and Beth are the twin sisters you heard at the beginning. As you listening to them, and the story of their parents, what did you think of them? Was there some part of you that judged them, maybe just a little? Did you feel sorry for them? Or were you like, YES! Finally, The Sporkful is featuring people just like me!

Dan Pashman: Well get ready, cause today we’re exploring what it’s like to go through life as a picky eater. And we'll ask: Why do picky eaters face so much judgment?

Dan Pashman: Laura and Beth are fraternal twins, not identical, which is important to note here as we tell their story. The truth is that research on picky eating is still pretty limited, and the area that’s especially unknown is the role of D.N.A. in determining our eating preferences. It's safe to say it’s some combination of nature and nurture — but how much is each, and how do the two interact? We really don’t know.

Dan Pashman: These days Laura and Beth live in different cities. When they were kids, the dinner menu at home in the Chicago suburbs was pretty limited.

Beth: We would have a rotation of chicken, turkey, every now and again ham ... 

Laura: Wild night. 

Beth: I’m missing pork chops. 

Laura: Hm. 

Beth: Oh, pizza once a week ... and then a red meat.

Laura: A lot of the times in high school, Beth and I were in a lot of extracurriculars and we would stay until 9 p.m. And my mom would drop off dinner for us which was often a — like a carnival pretzel.

Beth: [LAUGHS] 

Laura: Like, that would be our dinner.

Dan Pashman: Like a big fresh baked soft pretzel.

Beth: Yes ... 

Laura: But frozen and then heated up.

Dan Pashman: Got it. 

Beth: Defrosted ... yeah, from a Sam’s Club. We would buy giant boxes of these pretzels and those would be our dinner.

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Beth: A pretzel and some grapes and some cheez-its.

Dan Pashman: So, like, what’d you eat at Thanksgiving?

Beth: Turkey.

Laura: Turkey but oftentimes bought from — what’s that place? 

Beth: Boston Market.

Laura: Boston Market. So Thanksgiving, imagine a lot of plastic containers where you’re opening and reheating things. You’re like thank god Boston Market [Dan Pashman: Right.] is around because no one wanted to cook this.

Dan Pashman: This approach to eating that you grew up with, like was this discussed? Was it something you were all aware of growing up?

Beth: I don't think we really realized that we were picky eaters because you’d go over to a friend’s house and it was a special thing if you stayed for dinner. So most of the time it was like pizza or you know, you stayed because you knew what they were having and you liked what they were having. 

Laura: Right, I think you can just go so long as a kid going from. like, pizza party to pizza party that you think a larger percentage of people are just eating pizza all the time. 

[LAUGHING] 

Laura: You're like, well, that's what I have, like, every other weekend at these birthday parties. Right, so I would definitely say around 16, 17, when people would be like, in our suburban town, they’d be like, let’s drive to the Panera. And you realize they’re just ordering anything — soups. I'd never had a soup — you know, I'm like, how do you know you soup? 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Laura: Like, really realizing ... 

Dan Pashman: I get the impression that it’s was almost like a point of pride for your parents.

Laura: It is for my dad. 

Beth: Yes. 

Laura: My dad is definitely equating pickiness with simplicity, which, he’s a great guy, but I just — I don’t think that’s necessarily accurate. You can have a really simple salad with three ingredients and it can still be delicious and simple. 

Dan Pashman: Right. So Laura, just to sort of illustrate what life was like growing up and your dad, in particular, his approach to the picky eaters lifestyle …

Laura: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: You have brought in a cookbook. 

Laura: I have. 

Beth: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: A family heirloom, looks like. 

Laura: A treasure. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Beth: Only 10 were made. 

Dan Pashman: It's called Dad's Personal Favorites: The Clean Oven Cookbook.

Dan Pashman: This cookbook Beth and Laura’s dad made, it looks like it was printed at Kinko’s. He made it as a joke, it was a gift for family members. But it also sort of plays as a picky eater’s manifesto. 

Dan Pashman: The dedication is, "Dedicated to those who have enjoyed my cooking all of these years and others who may appreciate a unique epicurean approach that embraces the concepts of simplicity, simplicity, simplicity, and no sauces."

[LAUGHING] 

Beth: Yeah, I mean, it's the best — it's one of the best presents I've ever gotten for sure.

Dan Pashman: So the section of — so there's a first chapter: Appetizers. Dad's appetizer advice, "Don't waste stomach space on appetizers with all the good stuff to come."

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So there are no appetizers. 

Laura: Just no appetizers.

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Laura: I mean, unless you're gonna get like a pretzel roll? No point.

Dan Pashman: Walk me through the next section here, Laura.

Laura: Sure. The first entree is the cheese sandwich. So we have my dad holding a loaf of rye bread and Kraft American Singles in his photo. Step one: make sure rye bread is fresh and has plenty of seeds.

Dan Pashman: I'm surprised he goes for the seeds. 

Laura: What — I know! The one thing my dad likes these days are radishes? Doesn't that seem strange?

Dan Pashman: It is, because they're spicy when you just bite into them like that. 

Laura: Yeah! 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, it's surprising. 

Beth: Are they? I've never had one. I'll take your word for it. 

[LAUGHING] 

Laura: Beth doesn't know. Okay, second page ... 

Dan Pashman: I love that the final recipe in quotes is Oreos. And it says, "Enjoy the perfect cookie as Nabisco and God intended. Yield: 30 Oreos = 2 servings."

[LAUGHING] 

Beth: Yeah.

Laura: Like, oh God, it's terrible. 

Beth: Way too many. 

Laura: Way too many for a serving.

Dan Pashman: So you get the idea. Laura and Beth not only grew up as picky eaters with picky eater parents, but picky eating was part of their family identity. When it came time to go to college, Beth and Laura chose different paths. Beth decided to commute to school, and continue living at home with their parents. Laura went away to college and lived on campus. That’s where she first encountered a strange new work: the dining hall.

Laura: And so there were all of these other women my age who just like knew how to make these glorious salads. And I —  again, it was like the same with soup, I just didn't even know how you knew what to put in a salad. Like salads are very mysterious to me. So I would just sit at these meals with these people who had all these options, and not only were just like — because you could order something from a grill, but they could go beyond that. They could like ask for what they wanted. [LAUGHS] They were like, I like this meat and this cheese and this vegetable together. And I had no idea, like what combinations the general public agrees are good combinations of like a food. Like a Reuben, I wouldn't have been able to put that together myself. So it's clear to me like they knew what they were hungry for and could listen to their body in a way that I had not yet developed,

Dan Pashman: Right. And they had been exposed to enough different foods [Laura: Right.] and eat enough different foods that they had some sort of like wealth of experience to draw from.

Laura: Exactly.

Dan Pashman: But then came the night of the quesadilla.

Laura: My turning point was a night where I didn't have anything to eat, and I'd gone out with some people from my acapella group, and we'd gone to Whole Foods, and I'd bought a quesadilla. And in my mind, a quesadilla, I could handle that. It was just like a chicken one, so chicken and cheese. And then it came with all of this stuff I was not expecting on the inside. I was sort of ... 

Dan Pashman: Green stuff, as your dad might call it?

Laura: Green stuff. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Laura: Green stuff, as my dad might call it. And I was picking through it, single handedly pulling out like a mushroom or a pepper, whatever was in there. And my friends were just like looking at me with such pity. And I was like, I just don't want to live my life like this. I want to be able to eat this quesadilla.

Dan Pashman: But so it sounds to me what you're saying, Laura ... 

Laura: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Is that it was more social pressure than some sort of desire to be like a culinary explorer.

Laura: Yeah. No, I think that's true. Yeah. 

Dan:  You weren't like, I want to taste all there is the world has to offer. It was more like, I want to hang out with these people.

Laura: [LAUGHS] Yeah, I want to hang out with these people. And I think I wanted to be less afraid. So then from then I started just trying things if people would like — at my sorority house, if people would order Chinese food, I might like try a piece of chicken or something like that. And then someone invited me out to sushi, which was — to me, sushi was like my white whale. And I only had one or two cause I was, like, very nervous. [LAUGHS] I was very nervous, but I — and I had the very like western-y one, you know, the ones with, like cream cheese ... 

Dan Pashman: Right, right. 

Laura: And like I had one of those to start. I remember being a little uncomfortable with the texture and being like, oh, it's so like kind of mushy. And I tried sushi intermittently over the few years, until recently, within the last year, my boyfriend, we went back to his college and he was like, let's just try some sushi again. And I did. And this time I was like, oh, I get it. Now I'm having the crab roll, eel ... 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: In the fifteen years since Laura first walked into that campus dining hall, she’s gotten more and more adventurous. She later moved to New York City and then L.A., trying new foods in both places. But what about Beth? As I said, she commuted to college, and continued to live with her picky eating parents. She didn’t have a meal plan at an all-you-can-eat dining hall. She had to buy her lunch a la carte. 

Beth: You know, I don't want to get something and then not like it. So I normally just stuck with my turkey sandwich with a warm bacon every day. And the people actually knew, my order. I'd come up in line. They'd go, "The usual?" and I'd said, "Yep."

Dan Pashman: And so what do you have for lunch now?

Beth: I have a mixture of Cheerios, carrots, strawberries, or grapes, and some pretzels.

Dan Pashman: Beth, when you hear Laura talking about the sushi that she's eating, how do you feel about that?

Beth: I'm happy that she's happy. I mean, as she said earlier, the whole food thing was never a big deal because it brought everyone together. So you know, she's eating sushi, great. If she enjoys it, it doesn't matter to me. I'm just happy that she found more food she likes. I mean, that's something as someone who's a picky eater, I don't care if you like the food. If it makes you happy, great. It just doesn't make me happy. Other things make me happy.

Laura: Like puzzles.

Beth: Yes, jigsaw puzzles. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: So is there any food, Beth, that makes you really happy?

Beth: Oh, I love a good chips and salsa, but only the Tostitos Chunky Mediums salsa. Ooh, nothing but cake bundt cakes. Have you ever had one of those? Those are amazing. Oh, what's the bagel place near you that we always go to ... 

Laura: Oh, I brought, I brought Beth to Absolute Bagels on like 107th.

Dan Pashman: Okay.

Beth: Yum.

Laura: She had …

Beth: I mean ... 

Laura: A bagel.

Beth: With turkey and bacon, and it was really great.

Dan Pashman: And so, Beth, do you look forward to meals?

Beth: I mean, it depends on who's at said meal. When everyone is home, when we were all home a couple weeks ago for the holidays, meals were great, and they were super fun. So, my brother and his wife would cook, and my sister would eat it, and then I'd have something else. You know, it was great.

Dan Pashman: But Beth says, most of the time, she doesn't look forward to going out to eat.

Beth: We went to a restaurant a couple weeks ago for our birthday, and I always get — we go to the Cheesecake Factory and I always get two grilled chicken breasts plain with a side of french fries. That's my favorite. And the waitress was like, "Is this all you're gonna eat? Like, don't you want more food? This won't fill you up," and she was just like, very aggressive, because my mom and I both ordered the same thing. And we were kind of like, "No, we're good. We're good," and it's really uncomfortable when stuff like that happens. Or, I mean, people I know pointed out to other people. So like, I went to a lunch — I went to a lunch with some coworkers and another person and somebody completely pointed it out to everybody what I had chosen to eat, which was, I thought, uncalled for, but I was like, "Oh yeah, you know, this is what I like," and I just wish people wouldn't do that because it makes me kind of anxious to go out with anybody. Cause it's like, oh, if I don't know the person, if I don't know some of their friends, are they going to point it out to more people?

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Beth says she has no interest in trying new foods, in following her sister Laura’s path. She’s happy eating what she eats. She just wishes people would leave her alone about it. 

Beth: I just avoid the topic of food because sometimes you get alienated when you are a picky eater. And so my defense has always been to avoid and to change the subject. If I could, I would just take a pill where I didn't have to eat anything. So it'd be like, take a pill and then I'd be full all day, and I would be like a comfortable full, and then I wouldn't have to worry about it.

Dan Pashman: Why would that be preferable?

Beth: Because then no one would judge me.

Dan Pashman: What do you think they think of you?

Beth: That I don't have great taste in food, would be my thought. I mean, I don't think it changes their opinion of me. I just think it's another facet to my personality. 

Laura: I think people ... I think people think it's childish, as well. 

Beth: Oh?

Laura: I ... 

Beth: No, that makes ... 

Laura: The truth comes out. I think people think it's childish, yeah. Because it's taken — I think it's taken me a long time to not see it as childishness. My growth in enjoying food so perfectly, like, aligned with me getting older. But it still, when I look back, like, it happened so much later. It happened later in my life than a lot of people. Like, most people don't wait until they're 21. 

Dan Pashman: Well, yeah, but people always ask me, like, oh, you must have grown up and, like, been obsessed with food. But, like ... 

Laura: Right. 

Dan Pashman: Well, yes, I always, even as a kid, I always loved to eat. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: I got a lot of pleasure from eating. But I was not an especially adventurous eater. I was well into my thirties before I liked plain tomatoes, anything like mustard, olives, pickles, those kind of like — or spicy foods? 

Laura: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Any kind of like those strong, sharp, acidic, or bitter, or hot flavors I didn't like until at least my mid thirties.

Laura: Interesting. 

Dan Pashman: And it was only when I made a concerted effort, I would kind of — I got to a point in my life where I was like, you know, like you get burnt out on your music? You're like, I need a new playlist or something?

Laura: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: I got like that with food. 

Laura: Oh my gosh. Yes. 

Dan Pashman: And so I made a concerted effort to start to get used to eating more different things. But I wasn't like that when I was young, you know?

Laura: Hm. Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: I could have eaten egg and cheese sandwiches for weeks. 

Laura: Right.

Dan Pashman: What I'm really curious about to explore in this, in our conversation here in this — and in this series that we're doing is why though? Like, why does it matter? Like, if you're healthy, if you're going to the doctor and the doctor says you're fine, then why does it matter? I'm curious to try to understand where that judgment comes from. Do you have a theory, Laura?

Laura: Well, I think people always just want to share something that they love with you. Like I'm enjoying this avocado toast with my pickled onion so much, like I just want Beth to have a bite so we can experience this together. And that is, I've learned, is sort of a selfish way of like Beth will definitely not get the same pleasure out of this thing that I'm eating.

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: As Laura continues to try more new foods, her eating habits move further away from Beth’s, and their parents. That family identity of picky eating — that’s not Laura’s identity anymore. Over Christmas, she was really craving Magnolia Bakery’s banana pudding. She decided to make it for everyone. But she knew Beth and their parents wouldn’t like it. The picky side of the family doesn’t eat bananas. So for them, Laura made a separate batch of "banana pudding", except it had no bananas. And instead of the traditional Nilla wafers she used Oreos, cause as you’ll recall, her dad considers Oreos to be the perfect food, so he promised to try it. 

Laura: So he did try it. He just didn't think it was as good as a regular Oreo.

Dan Pashman: And how did that make you feel?

Laura: Like I had it coming because if you are a member of a family, where people don't like to try new foods, like you're never going to make something that changes that.

Dan Pashman: So why, Laura? Why'd you make this banana pudding dish knowing on some level that your family wasn't going to like it?

Laura: Well, I thought if I could change every single ingredient to be not what Magnolia Bakery makes actually, that they might enjoy it. And it just felt like if I could be sitting there eating my banana pudding and you could be sitting there eating your chocolate pudding, but I'd made them both and they're both in the same idea, then we're almost eating the same thing ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Laura: And we can like look at each other and be like, this is good. We're having the same meal, and agree on something that's good. 

Dan Pashman: You thought that you guys would connect over it.

Laura: Yeah, I did. 

Dan Pashman: That's what you were hoping for.

Laura: I thought that we would connect over it, because the more that I eat and get connection with other people the more I've started to like crave it with my family. We have many other things but, you know, it feels like such a big, giant thing in my life that I no longer — like, it feels like an absence in my family that could be filled if I make the right pudding.

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: One note to add, as I said, we still don’t know how much of our eating habits are nature and how much are nurture. Maybe Beth was just born a culinary homebody. She could be the type who prefers to stay in her comfort zone. Or maybe a change of environment would make a difference. Laura and Beth do have a brother, Michael, and his story is similar to Laura’s. He grew up picky, went away to college, got into food. When he got married recently, Laura gave a toast at the wedding. She said, “According to my parents, the first thing Michael ever did wrong was to try sushi. The second thing he ever did wrong was to like it.”

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, we’ll turn our attention to the most common group of picky eaters: Kids. I’ll talk with an expert who treats picky eaters, and yeah, we’ll talk about some of his techniques. But the big question I have is: Is picky eating actually even a problem? Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++BREAK+++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. If you haven’t heard our podcast series Anything’s Pastable, you’ve gotta check it out. It’s the behind the scenes story of the making of my cookbook, also called Anything’s Pastable. From the highs and lows of recipe testing to my research trip across Italy to some brutally honest feedback from my wife and kids to the agonizing decisions over the design of the cover — by the end of this series, I don't think you're ever gonna look at a cookbook the same way again. It's quite a ride and I hope you'll join me on it. All four episodes are up right now in your feed. Check it out. 

Dan Pashman: Now, back to the show …

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So Laura and Beth helped us understand what it’s like to be a picky eater as an adult. Now we'll turn our attention to kids, and the people who feed them. Cause I can tell you, as a parent myself, it’s stressful when a kid refuses to eat anything half healthy. It’s hard when you go to a restaurant or someone else’s house for dinner and your kid won’t eat anything there. Picky eating is a big source of stress for parents. 

Dan Pashman: Now I want to be clear here at the top: For the purposes of this conversation, we aren’t talking about the most acute cases, where a kid may be losing weight or malnourished, or where there’s a more serious underlying issue like OCD, autism, or pica, which is a disorder where people eat things like dirt or paint. We’re talking here about kids who are otherwise healthy, but they’re just really picky eaters.

Dan Pashman: Chris Rutt knows the type. He holds a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and works  at the Boston Child Study Center. When he was a postdoc, parents would bring him kids with all kinds of psychological and behavioral issues. One of the big ones he saw and treated a lot was picky eating. It’s an issue he knows well.

Chris Rutt: I was a pretty picky eater when I was a kid, and now I listen to your podcast every week and love bragging about my kids eating fancy foods over other people's kids. I'm just kidding.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] It sounds like you're definitely a great parent, Chris.

[LAUGHING] 

Chris Rutt: Well, I have a lot of pressure based on what my profession is.

Dan Pashman: Right. Yeah, that's true. Totally.

Chris Rutt: Yeah, it's like, man, I got to be careful about what parties I go to because if my kids aren't acting the way they need to, people are going to start eyeballing me.

Dan Pashman: Right. Yeah. And because you're a general specialist in all kinds of childhood behavior, there's really no escape for you.

Chris Rutt: Right. There's none. There's none at all.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Chris, how has having kids yourself changed the way you talk to parents who are dealing with picky eaters.

Chris Rutt: I think that when I walk in and I sit down with a family and I talk about, you know, having to put my daughter in timeout because of the craziness she was doing, there's a little bit of like yeah, you've been there man. Like we know what it's like. 

Dan Pashman: Right, right. 

Chris Rutt: I get a lot of buy in from that.

Dan Pashman: Chris is quick to stress that there’s no single solution for picky eating. He would sit with families to understand what’s happening at meal time, then offer various strategies. What works for one kid may not work for another. Sometimes it’s a control issue. Sometimes it’s sensory, the child may struggle with certain textures. And studies suggest a kid may have to try a food 30 or 40 times before learning to like it.

Dan Pashman: Am I right, Chris, that picky eating, certainly among 3, 4, 5, 6-year-olds, is actually considered normal. Like it's so common that it's considered normal.

Chris Rutt: Yeah. I think that's — I think you could make that claim. I think, you know, when we look at the research out there, we don't have a perfect sense of what the true prevalence is, but it — you know, it could be as high as, you know, 50 percent or more of kids, especially in that age range. You hit it right on the dot where it's kids from three to six tends to be the highest risk. And so you could potentially make an argument, right? If it's 50 percent of kids, what is normal? And is it just makes sense that kids at that age level just go through this period of time where they have some difficulties or aversion to new foods and that's kind of how how it goes.

Dan Pashman: Well, it certainly makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint to me. 

Chris Rutt: For sure. 

Dan Pashman: Like, you know, the kids who are walking through the forest eating every berry and mushroom that they pass aren't going to last long.

Chris Rutt: Mm-hmm. 

Dan: So it makes sense that the ones who are more cautious would be the ones who would survive and thrive.

Chris Rutt: For sure, absolutely.

Dan Pashman: So, why is picky eating a problem?

Chris Rutt: Academics would argue that, you know, there's a potential for picky eating having some long term consequences, right? And especially, you know, growing up in an age where, you know, pediatric obesity is a significant problem, what role does picky eating playing in that? Because there's some arguments that picky eating is a pretty — it's a trait that can continue on into older ages and adolescence and maybe even adulthood. And does that play a role? And I don't think we can answer that yet, right? So from my end, when I work with families, I try to frame it more of like, how distressed does this make kids and parents and how much does it interfere in their daily life?

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So there are two main reasons to worry about picky eating in an otherwise healthy child. One, it could lead to unhealthy habits as an adult. And two, it creates stress for parents, and by association, kids. Let’s take these in order.

Dan Pashman:  And there’s a fair amount of research that one of the biggest factors that determines what you eat as an adult is what you see your parents eating when you’re a kid. In fact, Chris says if he had to choose between a child eating more vegetables at a young age or seeing the parents eating more vegetables, he’d take the parents. So even if your kids eat very few veggies now ... If you can get them to try even a bit of healthy food over time, help them work their way to those 30 or 40 tastes, while modeling healthy eating for them, the research says that in the long run, they should be fine.

Dan Pashman: Second issue: Picky eating creates stress for parents and kids. But as I told Chris, it seems to me that the only reason it creates stress is that parents are convinced it’s a problem. 

Dan Pashman: Chris, I want to read a quote to you from a paper in Current Opinion in Psychiatry. The paper's called "Picky Eating the Current State of Research". There is a line in here that says, "A recent study has confirmed previous findings of an association between child picky eating behavior and maternal mental health and self esteem."

Chris Rutt: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And it says this is based on the idea that seeing their child eat enough was central to being a successful parent for many of these parents. Unpack that for me a little bit.

Chris Rutt: I'll do my best. I wanna put the disclaimer that I don't have that paper in front of me, and I'm not sure if I read that one or not. But you know, if I had to kind of hypothesize as far as what I think's going on there, right, is as parents — right, And I have three kids — you know, a big part of our identity is our children. And we want them to be successful and we want them to do the right things and we want them to be happy and healthy. And so, if I had a child who wasn't eating up to the standards that I expected or was causing a lot of these behavior problems because of food, that's increased stress. And the things that we know of mental health, a precursor of mental health, is the amount of stress that we, as individuals, encounter on a daily basis. So I definitely could see that if you have a picky eater as a child and this is a consistent and persistent problem that that could really be Increase the amount of stress for a parent and potentially result in a parent having their own difficulties with some mental health problems.

Dan Pashman: So then how much of the treatment for picky eating is to find tips and tricks to get the kid to eat more and how much should be to explain to the parent that actually, maybe in some cases, it's not a big deal?

Chris Rutt: Oh, I think both. I think a big part of my role and my colleague's role is trying to provide that education piece because being a parent is hard and most of the ways that we learn how to be a parent is from trial and error or from conversations with other parents. People always say, you know, there's no book on, on raising a child, which ... 

Dan Pashman: Actually, I think there's like several hundred million books. [LAUGHS] 

Chris Rutt: There's so many of them.

Dan Pashman: It's a billion dollar industry. 

Chris Rutt: There's so many. There's so many of them.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: The problem is not, Chris, that there's no book on how to raise a child. The problem is there are too many. [LAUGHS] 

Chris Rutt: I would agree. That's a whole different problem, right?

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Chris Rutt: It was like, how do I pick the best one? So that's the part of my job that I really enjoy is how can I step into that role and help guide families in a direction, based on evidence and research, that that hopefully is helpful and can reduce some of those problems and stress at home. This could be a very normal process that your child's going through. A lot of kids experience it.

Dan Pashman: I guess part of what I'm stuck on here, Chris, is that I feel like there's an underlying assumption under the discussion around picky eating that if you're — even if your kid is otherwise healthy ... 

Dan Pashman: If they're just picky, even at an age when it's very common to be picky, that that is a problem. And the underlying assumption there is that somehow it's the parents fault that they have failed to unlock this puzzle. They have failed to use the right technique. There's a lot of judgment of parents that parents feel like somehow they have failed if their child is not eating a diverse diet.

Chris Rutt: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: And by the opposite token, I often see parents who have kids who are adventurous eaters bragging about how their kids eat so many different things. 

Chris Rutt: [LAUGHS] Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: As if that somehow makes their child more virtuous or makes them a better parent.

Chris Rutt: For sure. 

Dan Pashman: And I really want to push back against that underlying assumption. 

Chris Rutt: Fair. Yeah, I got your back on this one, Dan. 

Dan Pashman: Okay! All right. [LAUGHS] 

Chris Rutt: I mean, I think, as parents, right, there is, there is a little piece of like the keeping up with the Joneses where we don't want to look like the embarrassment or the failure that we can't get our kids to eat quinoa because they really just like eating hot dogs. But you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you guys as a family are fine and you don't have concerns from a nutritional standpoint and you feel like this isn't going to be a persistent problem over time, like, so be it, like enjoy it and have fun.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. And also like cut kids some slack. I mean, look, I — there's a lot of vegetables that I like now. And like, I love a good head of broccoli, like olive oil and salt roasted at a high heat so it gets charred around the florets. But then it's also still crunchy in the center and then I'll take it out of the oven and sprinkle a little sea salt and I'll squeeze some lemon juice on and give it some tang and mix it all around. And that is really delicious, but it still does not hold a candle to a hot dog.

Chris Rutt: Not at all.

Dan Pashman: I mean, come on. They're like parents, like your kids, cut them some slack, you know?

Chris Rutt: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: So Chris, it would be the obvious thing to do to end this interview by me asking you to give us some tips, Chris, give us some news you can use. But I'm really, really not wanting to do that. I don't want to ... Because then I will only be reinforcing the idea that picky eating is a problem that parents should address by employing some new technique. How old are your kids, Chris?

Chris Rutt: I have three. I have a 7-year-old, a 3-year-old, and a 3-month-old.

Dan Pashman: Well, we'll set the three month old aside because I assume that he or she is still on a pretty limited diet.

Chris Rutt: She's a super picky eater. She will only milk from her mom.

Dan Pashman: Ugh, they're so difficult. Am I right? 

Chris Rutt: Yeah, yeah. You're right. Totally. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So do you notice different eating habits between the 7-year-old and the 3-year-old?

Chris Rutt: Oh my God, absolutely. 

Dan Pashman: Like what? 

Chris Rutt: Dramatically different. I mean, my son who's seven is like the rule follower, you know, doesn't ever want to get in trouble, always wants to do things right. He's also super adventurous in his eating. Like he's the one that we don't really have to have problems with trying to get him to taste new foods.

Dan Pashman: Right. He's the better kid. I get it. Okay, go on. 

[LAUGHING] 

Chris Rutt: And my daughter who's three, she is — she's the firecracker. She's the one who will look you dead in the eye and pour her milk all over the table just to get a reaction out of you.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Chris Rutt: She keeps me on my toes and keeps me up to date with some of my strategies for helping parents. So it's been — it's been a fun challenge.

Dan Pashman: Tell me a specific story about a time that you tried one of your techniques and it failed and you threw it out the window.

Chris Rutt: The biggest failure that I do all the time is using dessert as a motivator for eating the foods that I want them to eat. And all the literature says, don't do that because all it's doing is making them really like the dessert and just knuckle through that terrible experience of whatever that vegetable is. But we still sometimes use that. Sometimes it's not true. We use that a lot.

[LAUGHING] 

Chris Rutt: Cause it's such a strong motivator, like, hey, we're going to have this nice sweet treat. I just want you to try this little tiny bite of food and just try to get them over that hump of that initial — just take that tiny little bite.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: That’s Chris Rutt, he’s a clinical psychologist in Boston. Next week on The Sporkful, ahead of Passover, I talk with Naama Shefi about documenting Jewish food from around the world.That work includes her new cookbook, The Jewish Holiday Table. That’s next week.

Dan Pashman: While you wait for that one, check out our series Anything’s Pastable, about the making of my cookbook. All four episodes are in your feed right now. Of course, you can also buy the cookbook right now, go to sporkful.com/book for more info. There's even signed copies there! Again, sporkful.com/book. 

Dan Pashman: And, if you want to eat your way across Italy, the way I do in Anything’s Pastable, I have teamed up with the folks at Culinary Backstreets to create a food tour of Italy hitting many of the spots we feature in the series, with many of the same people. Sign up for this tour and you’ll eat in Rome with Katie Perla, cook in Lecce with Silvestro Silvestori, and eat spaghetti all’assassina in Bari with me! Come eat pasta in Italy with me. How can you turn it down? It’s all happening in November, get the info at CulinaryBackstreets.com/sporkful.