Dan Pashman: All right, I'm going to say a food, you tell me a beer to go with it

Mandy Naglich: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: Ready?

Mandy Naglich: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: Pop quiz. 

Mandy Naglich: Okay? 

Dan Pashman: Grilled scallops.

Mandy Naglich: Grilled scallops. Oh, I think a really nice like light hefeweizen would be very nice of that because scallops are so sweet.

Dan Pashman: Mm-hmm. 

Mandy Naglich: So you get that little orange kind of playing off it, that little sweetness, but not too overwhelming. You don't want to think too intense of something as delicate as a scallop.

Dan Pashman: Caesar salad.

Mandy Naglich: Caesar salad. Okay, so that's to be like a lot of salt and cheese going on. I think, like a Czech amber lager would be really nice with that. 

Dan Pashman: Hmm. 

Mandy Naglich: That has a little bit of that like toastiness of dark malt. So kind of playing off your crouton. It also is a little butteriness that's really signature to Czech beers. So that could go really nicely together and also add kind of a new element, right? You're getting that like toasty liquid bread kind of going on.

Dan Pashman: Mm-hmm. Kimchi.

Mandy Naglich: Kimchi, that's a good one. So kimchi’s gonna be really refreshing, spicy. I could see that going well with a schwarzbier, kind of to balance it out. Schwarzbier is going to be bitter, but not too bitter. It's a dark beer, so it kind of will bring like an element of a little bit of like bitterness and roast to kind of cut through some of that, like, really sharp acid. Hopefully not clashing too much. I'd kind of have to try that together. I don't know if I've done a lot of kimchi pairing. Maybe saison too? Saisons are kind of funky, so like, bring the funk to the funk.

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Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies, it is for eaters. I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, you know what we do. We obsess about food to learn more about people. Happy holidays! Happy New Year. If you're in the New York area, like me, your holiday season was probably not what you originally planned. But wherever you are and whatever happened, I hope that you stayed safe and healthy and managed to spend some time with friends and or family and eat some delicious food.

Dan Pashman: All right, let's get into this show. Mandy Naglich, a beer writer and educator. And today, we're gonna share the story of her attempt to become a Master Cicerone. That’s the highest certification a beer expert can get. It’s like a master sommelier but for beer. There are only 19 Master Cicerones in the world. 

Dan Pashman: When I first met Mandy, we were both working at WNYC, the public radio station. She was in marketing and I was hosting this podcast there. I did an episode with her back in 2016, because by night, she had this whole other life as a home brewer, making beer in her small New York apartment. 

CLIP (MANDY NAGLICH): This is an old ice cream fridge that we hacked, and it’s now a 4-tap kegerator. 

Dan Pashman: For Mandy, this was more than a hobby. She had just won a gold medal at the National Homebrewing Competition. She and her boyfriend, Wes, entered separately, along with more than 3,000 other home brewers and Mandy won. She was a rising star home brewer, but the beer world is very male. As she told me in that previous episode, even with her big award, guys still loved to question her credentials.

CLIP (MANDY NAGLICH): I mean, I definitely got comments — like someone made a joke and they're like, "Oh, it must have been your boyfriend that wrote the recipe," which is like, okay, you know, just one, let me bask in this for a minute. Um ... but there was comments like that. I mean, there's also just jokes like, "Oh, you're the hottest person to win this year." I was also the only female who won gold. And I mean, we'd all been drinking the whole night of the award ceremony, right? They give you free beer at the awards ceremony. 

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): You're saying there's a lot of drinking at the home brewing championship?

CLIP (MANDY NAGLICH): There's a lot of drinking.

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): Okay. Did you feel like some of them resented you?

CLIP (MANDY NAGLICH): I did have one weird moment after the awards ceremony, after the afterparty, like, when you're all just hanging out and talking about our awards, where they were asking you what my recipe. And it wasn't like, "Oh, you know, why did you do this?" It was, "Tell me what temperature you did this. Tell me what ingredient? Why did you do that? Oh, you did?" It felt like a little, um,1 like they were trying to catch me off guard. Like bullet point ...

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): An interrogation. 

CLIP (MANDY NAGLICH): Yeah, a little bit. 

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): They wanted to see if you really knew your stuff.

CLIP (MANDY NAGLICH):: And that was after my boyfriend had gone home to the hotel, too. You know? It went from kind of being like we're all hanging out and doing our things to like a little bit of an intense moment that I definitely didn't appreciate.

Dan Pashman: Since that conversation in 2016, I’ve been following Mandy’s beer career. And she’s been busy. Last summer, we met up at Carmine Street Beers. It’s a bar and bottle shop in New York City that sells more than 500 different beers.

Dan Pashman: So Mandy, I want to hang out, I want to talk, I want to catch up. 

Mandy Naglich: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But while we're catching up, should we just start drinking now or should we wait to start drinking?

Mandy Naglich: I'm always ready to start drinking. Especially like you said, I purposely — you know, I got up early, got everything done. Because I was like at two o'clock, who knows how much I'll be drinking after that? So ...

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Why don’t you order us some beers? Whatever you're in the mood for. 

Mandy Naglich: What do you guys have on that's like refreshing, light ... 

[UNINTELLIGIBLE] 

Mandy Naglich: Oh, that’s a great one. Yeah, let's definitely do that. 

Dan Pashman: What is it? What did we just order? 

Dan Pashman: Mandy orders us a pilsner called Mary, from Hill Farmstead in Vermont.

Dan Pashman: All right. 

Mandy Naglich: Cool. 

Dan Pashman: Cheers.

[GLASSES CLINKING] 

Mandy Naglich: First taste. It's nice and cold. 

Dan Pashman: Oh, yeah. Am I supposed to smell it first?

Mandy Naglich: Mm-hmm. That’s like a natural … I can't even ...

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Mandy Naglich: Nice and refreshing. 

Dan Pashman: The big development in Mandy’s career since we last met up is that, as I said, she’s trying to become the 20th Master Cicerone in the world. To pass, Mandy has to not only know a ton about beer tasting and pairing, she also has to know about the science and mechanics of beer brewing and serving, running tap lines, all the machinery involved. 

Dan Pashman: The cicerone program was started in 2007 by a craft brewer named Ray Daniels, and it has four levels. The first is Certified Beer Server. Mandy got that one years ago …

Mandy Naglich: That’s just an online test, and I actually did it as a bet with a couple of guys, who were like, I think I know more about beer than you. And I was like, I have an easy way to test this. Let's take this online test. It was like — I think it's like fifty bucks or something. You take it right then and like, who got the best score. And of course, it was me who came out on top. So ... 

Dan Pashman: As Mandy became better known in home brewing circles, folks from the cicerones encouraged her to go for the next level — certified cicerone.

Mandy Naglich: And I went ahead and took that in 2016 and passed it on my first try ...

Dan Pashman: Those first two certifications are pretty common in the beer industry. Companies might want their brewers, distributors, or salespeople to get certified. Restaurants may have their bartenders get certified cicerone. But then comes advanced cicerone. That test involves coming up with beer pairings for different foods, like you heard Mandy doing at the top of the show. You also need to identify styles, and learn about keeping and serving beer. There are even essay questions. Things like …

Mandy Naglich: So what is the history of a weizenbock? And give me four commercial examples of a weizenbock from three different countries. Something like that, so you have to kind of write about where the style come from, compare that different commercial examples, and know off the top of your head all these different examples ...

Dan Pashman: When Mandy took that test, there were only about 100 advanced cicerones in the world. She passed on the first try. She’s basically like the Michael Jordan of beer tests … 

Mandy Naglich: It felt freaking great. I was so excited.

[LAUGHING] 

Mandy Naglich: I was, um — I was totally ready to be like, you know, I learned so much taking it. I'm ready to do it again or re-tackle the tasting. So I was really excited cause I, actually, also did really well on it. So that was — yeah — really exciting.

Dan Pashman: That was 2019. As Mandy worked her way up through the cicerones, she decided to quit her day job in marketing to focus on being a beer writer and educator. She started writing articles for websites and magazines, leading tastings and teaching classes. But she wasn’t done taking tests. She still wanted to get to the mountaintop: Master Cicerone. 

Neil Witte: When you start getting into advanced cicerone and Master Cicerone, it becomes more — I describe it as more kind of like vision quest kind of stuff. 

Dan Pashman: This is Neil Witte. He’s a Master Cicerone, and he’s also the associate director of exams for the Cicerone Certification Program. He says for him, getting to the highest level of the program didn’t have much of a practical purpose.

Neil Witte: I wasn’t going for Master Cicerone because it's like, "Boy, as soon as I get this I’m going to put Master Cicerone on my resume and, you know, I’m gonna get X,Y, Z job." It just — it doesn't work like that. There isn’t a job description out there that says, “Must be Master Cicerone.”

Dan Pashman: While that might be true, Mandy felt like for her career, becoming a Master Cicerone would have very tangible benefits.

Mandy Naglich: It's definitely something that I feel like a lot of women go up against is like meeting these certifications to prove that we're worthy. And I don't know that that's necessarily a good thing, but it is important to me. I think it's a nice thing to say, "Hi, I want to host your event and I am an expert and I'm one of only 20 in the world.", or, "Hi, you know, I want to host your TV show or do — ", or really speak on behalf of beer and that proves that I know my way around any question. I'm not going to get blindsided, even if it's walking into a cooler at a professional brewery and fixing their kegs, I will definitely know how to do that once I pass this test. So ...

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Out of the 19 Master Cicerones in the world, only 3 are women. I asked Neil how they'd benefit from having more women at that highest level.

Neil Witte: I think, you know, the beer business in general has not done itself many favors over the years in drawing in people other than white men. You know, it's it's well-documented that the beer business has a diversity issue. And insofar as we can help to make the industry more diverse, I think we're just helping the beer business in general. I think it helps everybody to bring everybody into this umbrella because beer is for everybody. 

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Dan Pashman: The Master Cicerone test is two full days and is only given once a year in person, in Chicago. Most of the people who take it work for a beer company, and they have the support of their company. Some of them are able to take time off to prep for the test. The company might even pay for the exam fees, prep classes, and materials. It costs a thousand dollars to take the test the first time, 800 for each subsequent try, and most people take it multiple times before passing. As we said, Mandy’s a freelance beer writer and educator. She doesn’t have that support. After acing all the other tests, she studied for six months before taking the Master Cicerone exam, in October 2019.

Mandy Naglich: Definitely a shock on the Master Cicerone exam.

Dan Pashman: What happened? 

Mandy Naglich: So what I was talking about with the advance, right, you're in the room with a proctor. But now, instead of sitting across the table and him handing you a beer and saying, "Taste this," you walk into a room at an active brewery and they say this draft line is messed up, troubleshoot it, and go fix it."

Dan Pashman: Whoa.

Mandy Naglich: I actually took a keg care course because I knew this was going to happen. But still, I still I kind of walked in and start seeing torn gaskets and like looking at screwdrivers and being like, whoa, I'm like — I kind of knew on the first day I was out of my depth. I was just not ready.

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Dan Pashman: For the first time in her life, Mandy failed a beer test. She got a 73 out of 100 — passing is 85. She planned to take the exam again the following year — but it was canceled because of covid. 

Dan Pashman: As she and I sit at the bar, it’s August 2021. Mandy’s going to take the Master Cicerone exam again in a few months, two years after her first attempt. She’s spent at least $10,000 of her own money prepping for and taking this test. She’s been able to parlay her beer and food writing into a deal for a book about flavor. And she’s continued doing freelance marketing work on the side to help pay the bills.

Dan Pashman: Mandy has a few reasons for really wanting to pass this test. To begin with, there are 19 Master Cicerones and she really wants to be in the first 20. But more than that …

Mandy Naglich: I think having a Master Cicerone who's a little outside the industry, who can speak to consumers a little more directly, and maybe speaking their language a little bit more is a really important move not just for Cicerone, but for the beer industry. Like having, especially women, I've got to say — 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Mandy Naglich: That's kind of more focused on, let's talk to people who are just getting into a hobby, or just getting into the industry, who feel uncomfortable in beer spaces right now. That's something that's really driving me. It's still that like original mission that I think this is a big step in the right direction of.

Dan Pashman: So like with so many things, it sounds like there's some element of sort of like you've got to be in the in-crowd to get in.

Mandy Naglich: Right, which is definitely a tough place for me coming from, you know … I'm not coming from a Miller Coors or Sam Adams or any of those. So I do have a little bit of worry about that, but I think it's kind of one of those things where it's like, if you're so good, they can't say you're bad. So I'm just, getting ready to be so good.

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Dan Pashman: So Mandy, I can't really help you with the beer, the tap lines, the draft lines, but I can help you with the tasting. 

Mandy Naglich: Yes.

Dan Pashman: You ready to do a little study session right here?

Mandy Naglich: Let’s do it. Yeah. 

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Dan Pashman: Carmine Street Beers, where we are right now, has over 500 beers to choose from. So it’s a perfect place for Mandy to prep for the Master Cicerone exam and I am happy to be her study buddy. This is just what friends do for friends.

Dan Pashman: The first skill she wants to practice? Tasting a beer and naming the specific style. So like an IPA, or a hefeweizen, or a stout. There are more than a hundred styles in all. I sneak off to the other side of the bar to confer with the bartenders.

Dan Pashman: Shane and Steve, right? 

Steve: Nice to meet you.

Shane: Yep, good to meet you. 

Dan Pashman: We're helping Mandy study for the Master Cicerone test. All right, so we got to pick three to five styles of beer to try to stump Mandy ...

Dan Pashman: Shane disappears for a few minutes and comes back with four bottles.

Dan Pashman: What do we got here, Shane?

Shane: All right, so first up, we have Fabulant from Schillings. It's a heller weizenbock, so it's got a little bit of a banana clove thing. That one's is a kind of an off kilter style. I'd be kind of curious to see if she can pick that up pretty immediately. Next, I have the Schlenkerla smoked marzen. It's a pretty classic, very well known kind of German one. Next up, we have a classic Triple American IPA from Sierra Nevada, The Hoptimum. And then to wrap it up, we have another classic beer, the La Trappe Quad, which is a very kind of heavy Belgian dark beer. 

Dan Pashman: Shane cracks open the beers and pours some of each into glasses. He pours the same flight for me, so I can taste along with Mandy. He also writes me a little cheat sheet and brings the four glasses over to our table.

Mandy Naglich: Thank you, guys.

Dan Pashman: Thank you. All right, Mandy.

Mandy Naglich: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: This is a study session. We're trying to replicate test conditions. What would be the first thing I would do?

Mandy Naglich: So the first thing I'm going to do for each one really quick is just go through the whole flight and give them each like a short sniff and then like a little bit of a longer sniff. So like [SNIFFS] and then you kind of take it away to just kind of let your brain think about what it smelled and then [SNIFFS] a little bit longer. I'm gonna let it warm up a little bit. I'm gonna — do you care if I pour it into a different glass?

Dan Pashman: No, go for it. 

Mandy Naglich: Okay. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Mandy explains that glasses can have off-flavors from dish detergent, or they could be hot after they come out of the dishwasher. In the exam, she’ll be tasting from plastic cups. So in order to ensure true test conditions, she brought her own plastic cups.

Mandy Naglich: I'm gonna trick  — 

Dan Pashman: I have to say it’s a little bit hilarious to me that the Master Cicerones are tasting beer in plastic cups. I mean, what is this? A frat party?

Mandy Naglich: I mean, frat boys had it right, I guess. They're not going to contaminate their beer at all. But the important thing about these plastic cups is you can create a seal at the top of your hand and like, swirl it. 

Dan Pashman: Oh.

Mandy Naglich: And that's just gathering all the aroma in there. 

Dan Pashman: So you like seal the top essentially. 

Mandy Naglich: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: You pour the beer into the plastic cup. Now you put your hand over the top and just swirling it around to get it all sudsy in there. And now she's got her nose in there ...

Mandy Naglich: So I got like a hint of banana on that one. So I'm just like, make a banana note and then you kind of go to the next one. 

Dan Pashman: Now on to number two. 

Mandy Naglich: Oh, that one's like huge, roasty. It's funny because you can kind of tell the head has a little bit of creaminess to it. It's almost like campfire to me, like definitely huge roast. It's definitely going to be in some kind of stout category. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. We're moving to number three.

Mandy Naglich: This is going to be some kind of American. It's got like that, um — really hop forward — you don't get anything from yeast on it. It's not quite tropical hops, though. They're a little like floraly, [SNIFFS] maybe a little forest flor going on. So I'm just going to write American and move on. Number four. [SIFFS] Whoa. That one's kind of crazy. I'm not sure if that one wants to be a little Belgian. It's like big banana candy flavor to me. And you can see when I'm swirling that you get like all of this head. Now we're going to go back and get each one a retro nasal sniff. I don't know if you're familiar with the retronasal sniff? 

Dan Pashman: I am from a retronasal olfaction, which is up the back of your throat. 

Mandy Naglich: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: So like if you hold a little bit of it in your mouth and kind of … oh, so she's holding her nose like she's about to jump in a pool. She took a sip of beer and she's swirling around her mouth. Interesting.

Mandy Naglich: And then you really blow out your nose. 

Dan Pashman: Oh, so you get the aroma up the back of your throat and blow it out your nose. It’s like a reverse sniff. 

Mandy Naglich: Yeah, and the thing is, your brain doesn't really understand what's going on, so it actually puts the flavor that you're smelling in your mouth like you're tasting it. So like, you can actually feel your mouth kind of fill with flavor sometimes. Like especially on Isoamyl acetate, which is that banana flavor.

Dan Pashman: I'm afraid I'm going to snarf this beer all over my microphone but I'm gonna give it a shot. 

Mandy Naglich: [LAUGHS] Yeah. So you hold your nose taking a breath.

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Mandy Naglich: Then you put it in your mouth, swirling around your mouth so all the surfaces are covered. Then you're going to exhale out your nose, but keep your lips shut and kind of see if you feel like a flavor is … 

Dan Pashman: Okay.

Mandy Naglich: Filling your mouth.

Dan Pashman: Okay. All right. Here I go. 

Mandy Naglich: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Oh yeah. When as you let go of your nose, it kind of like just fizzes up through your whole — 

Mandy Naglich: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Situation.

Mandy Naglich: Like when I'm teaching people that, I — like a cinnamon tea is a really good way to do it because all of a sudden, even though you just swallowed it, there's no tea left in your mouth. When you let go of your nose, it's like all of a sudden there's cinnamon filling your mouth, you know?

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Mandy Naglich: So, yeah, we're going to go down the line on that.

Dan Pashman: Mandy retronasally sniffs all four of her beers. Then she takes some sips, she looks at the beers closely, and she’s ready to make her guesses. She starts with the one that she thinks she can identify best, which is beer #2.

Mandy Naglich: Number two, I'm going with — so it's actually quite — like you can see those ruby highlights coming through. Most stouts will be almost black. So I usually don't let appearance affect me until like right at the end. That roast is so overwhelming though, but I can't imagine — oh. No, it's a smoked beer. It’s a rauchbier.

Dan Pashman: Oh, it's like it just clicked!

Mandy Naglich: Well, because I was like, what is going on with this color that's like, it's totally not — and it's right. It's not the flavor of roasted barley. It's the flavor of actual smoke. 

Dan Pashman: So what's rauchbier? What does that mean? 

Mandy Naglich: So it's — they smoke some of the malt way back in the day when they couldn't help but smoke malt when they were making beer. Basically, all malt was smoking because if you were going to get any dark color like they couldn't get rid of the smoke. So it's kind of a bit of an ode that. I mean, there's still beers that are made that way in Bamberg, in Germany, but it's some kind of rauchbier, I would say now. It's missing that bacony thing to me now, but I would say it's something with smoked malt in it. It's not roasted barley. 

Dan Pashman: You are correct. It is a rauchbier.

Mandy Naglich: Okay.

Dan Pashman: It is the Schenkerla Rauchbier Marzen.

Mandy Naglich: There you go. All right. So that's like the classic example of Rauchbier. I got to say it's something that I don't practice on because I'm always like, "Oh, if I smell rauchbier, I'll know." Or actually, I think it's rauchbier. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. Maybe. Rauchbier.

Mandy Naglich: It's not something I say out loud very often. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Mandy Naglich: But yeah, I've always kind of thought like, oh, the minute I smell that, I'll know and move on. But there you go.

Dan Pashman: Well, I'm glad we had a refresher here. 

Mandy Naglich: There you go. Now, when I get on the test, I'll be like, Thank you, Sporkful.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Mandy moves on to beer #3.

Mandy Naglich: I wanna be like, this American one, right? Like, I kind of picked it up and I was like, okay, I'm pretty sure it's American. I tasted it was like, I'm pretty sure it's American. And now I'm kind of like, Is it American pale ale? Is it — I don't think it's dark enough to be an amber ale. I think it's too much to be a blond. Pale ale and IPA kind of overlap. Okay, so I'm going to go with #3, I think is an American pale ale. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. That is the Sierra Nevada Hoptimum. So Sierra Nevada …

Mandy Naglich: Is that an IPA or is it a pale ale?

Dan Pashman: Is a pale ale. 

Shane: Is it a Triple IPA.

Mandy Naglich: Wow. 

Dan Pashman: Triple IPA. So does that mean you were correct or not correct?

Mandy Naglich: I would say not correct cause it's going to have higher alcohol. So now we're down to the…

Dan Pashman: Yeah, #1 and #4.

Mandy Naglich: But I wrote medium bitterness, some drying on this one. I'm starting to feel like that one's a little bit German, but I don't know why. But I'm just trying to trust my brain. The first one, I'm going to say is some kind of style of pilsner. Yeah, I feel like I get some roundness on it.

Dan Pashman: It's Schilling Fabulant. 

Mandy Naglich: Is that a pilsner?

Shane: So I threw a curveball. Heller weizenbock. 

Dan Pashman: It's a heller weizenbock. 

Mandy Naglich: So it's like a helles bock, but with some wheat.

Shane: Mm-hmm.

Mandy Naglich: It's also quite clear, though, but — okay, so ...  

Dan Pashman: That sounds like a tough one, though. 

Mandy Naglich: I would say that's not like a totally a real style, necessarily.

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Mandy Naglich: So a helles bock would be like the big brother of a pilsner, basically. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Mandy Naglich: So it's a little bit higher alcoholic. Would this be like six percent, maybe?

Shane: Yeah, I think around 6 or 7.

Mandy Naglich: Yeah ... 

Dan Pashman: So Mandy didn’t quite nail that one. She still has one more beer to call.

Mandy Naglich: It's definitely somewhere between Belgian and German style. It's like sweet. So now I'm kinda — hmm. I'm also am writing down, "English barley wine?" So this is what I was telling you that I don't want to happen at the test.

Dan Pashman: Okay.

[LAUGHING] 

Mandy Naglich: And it's got like a lot of this interesting candied character that I almost that was artificial fruit at first, which would make you think it's going to be Belgian. It's so sweet. It's like, right now I'm going through all the Belgian beers in my head, right? There's like Belgian double. I think it's a little too clear and a little too light to be a Belgian double. Triple? I don't think it's quite bitter enough. It's also a little bit dark in color. Dark strong, obviously not. There's not enough alcohol there, I don't think.

Dan Pashman: Mandy is holding it up to the light. Is there a time limit on this test? 

Mandy Naglich: It's normally — 

[LAUGHING] 

Mandy Naglich: Fifteen minutes for seven of them.

Dan Pashman: Okay.

Mandy Naglich: So I was going to say, what are we coming up on? Ten minutes?

Dan Pashman: All right. All right. So we need an answer here, Mandy.

Mandy Naglich: All right. I'm freaking out now. 

Dan Pashman: Well, look, this is pressure, but you know, we need it — 

Mandy Naglich: I was gonna say the microphone is throwing me off. That's what it is people.

Dan Pashman: No, that does add pressure, I'm sure. But you know, it's gonna be pressure on the day of the test, too. So ... 

Mandy Naglich: All right. Fourth one, I'm going to say … how about kristalweizen.

Dan Pashman: That's Belgian?

Mandy Naglich: No, that's German. [LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Okay.  

Mandy Naglich: No. I don't know. I can't think of a style though. Let's just call it a Belgian double.

Dan Pashman: Okay. It is a Belgian quad. 

Mandy Naglich: Wow. How is it so clear?

Dan Pashman: La Trappe Quadruple, but ... 

Mandy Naglich: That's a zero. Because that's like a perfect example of the style, La Trappe Quad. So when you look at this, right, I wrote high alcohol yeast character. 

Dan Pashman: Hmm. 

Mandy Naglich: So I should have narrowed it down to either being like weizenbock and Doppelbock, quad, golden strong, and just stuck with that. Like English barley wine throwing out there? That's just me doubting myself. I actually talked to a master sommelier. He had to take the tasting four times and I was like, “What, finally, was the thing for you?” And he was like, “It's just not trying to put something in the glass that's not in the glass.”

Dan Pashman: I like that advice, though.

Mandy Naglich: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: There's probably like a larger life lesson in that?

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Mandy Naglich: Yeah, exactly.

Dan Pashman: I'm kind of glad you didn't get all the answers right.

Mandy Naglich: Me too.

Dan Pashman: Because I think that's how you learn. 

Mandy Naglich: Definitely.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So Mandy only got one of the four beer styles totally correct. Coming up, I give Mandy a different test, where she has to identify off-flavors in beer. Then later, she takes the Master Cicerone exam, and gets her results. Stick around.

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Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. Hey, quick reminder, please make sure that you're connected to our podcast in your podcasting app that way you'll never miss an episode. In Spotify or Stitcher, just go to our show page and click Follow. In Apple Podcasts, you go to our show page and there’s a little plus sign in the upper right. Hit that plus sign. Whatever it is your app, just please do that thing. Go ahead, you can do it right now while you're listening. Thank you. Okay, back to the show.

Dan Pashman: I’m with Mandy Naglich at Carmine Street Beers, and there’s one more thing she wants to practice. Sometimes in the process of selecting ingredients for your beer, or brewing it, or running lines from kegs to taps, something goes wrong. And it makes the beer taste off. In the Master Cicerone test, Mandy will have to identify off flavors in beers, and diagnose the issue that caused the bad taste. For example …

Mandy Naglich: So yeast makes a ton of flavor during fermentation, and there's something like an ester that could be like ethyl acetate that — it smells like nail polish. So if you smell a bunch of nail polish or nail polish remover, you're going to know that you've fermented your beer too hot. If you have the sensory as a brewer and you smell that, you're like, okay, next fermentation, we're going to tamp down the fermentation temperature ...

Dan Pashman: Mandy has brought a set of additives that she can add to a beer to give it one of the off flavors. They’re like these little clear plastic pills, each with a different color powder inside. 

Dan Pashman: This is like Alice in Wonderland level right here.

Dan Pashman: Mandy leaves the table. I get three identical cups of beer from Shane, the bartender. I keep one unadulterated, as the control. Then I add a different powder to each of the other two. This is how it works in the actual test. They will tell Mandy which one is the control and she can use that as a baseline. When she comes back to the table, she starts going through the same process … swirling, sniffing. 

Mandy Naglich: I did the short sniff. 

Dan Pashman: She tastes number one, the control. Then sniffs number two, which has been altered or spiked.

Mandy Naglich: #2, before tasting it, I'm guessing it's 4-vinylguajacol. 

Dan Pashman: What makes you say that?

Mandy Naglich: It has that like clovey, baking spice thing to it that I don't feel like I recognize it in the control. So, yeah. I think on that — I think #2, I'm going to write for 4VG. 

Dan Pashman: 4-vinylguajacol.

Mandy Naglich: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Mandy moves on to the second spiked beer.

Mandy Naglich: It almost is like it's flattened the whole flavor of what the base is, which is what a flaw will do. It's determining what flaw that could be. I can't tell if it's like a little bit cheesy or a little bit eggy. Sulfur is super volatile. It's like the minute you pour it to put your nose in there or else it will be gone. 

Dan Pashman: Mandy has her entire nose inside a plastic cup.

Mandy Naglich: [LAUGHS] I’m taking little short sniffs. You don't want to dry out your mucus or else … 

Dan Pashman: Interesting. Short sniffs ... 

Mandy Naglich: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: To prevent mucus drying.

Mandy Naglich: Yeah, if you lose your mucus, you're done. You can't taste anything.

Dan Pashman: Oh man.

Mandy Naglich: I'm think I'm going H2S on that. Hydrogen sulfide?

Dan Pashman: You are correct. 

Mandy Naglich: Oh! Okay. [LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: And you got both of them!

Mandy Naglich: Really! 

Dan Pashman: Yes.

Mandy Naglich: Okay. Great. 

Dan Pashman: 4-vinylguajacol and H2S. 

Mandy Naglich: Oh. 

Dan Pashman: You actually got them both. You called them before you even tasted them.

Mandy Naglich: Yes. Yeah. Tasting just like a confirmation. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Mandy Naglich: It's all about aroma. Do you want to smell this? I didn't drink out of both of them.

Dan Pashman: Oh, okay. Sure, sure. 

Mandy Naglich: So this is the 4VG.

Dan Pashman: Okay. Yeah, I would not get cloves or Christmastime from this. 

Mandy Naglich: Right. 

Dan Pashman: You know? 

Mandy Naglich: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: It just smells like a different kind of beer. 

Mandy Naglich: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: That's all — that's the best I can do. Like —

Mandy Naglich: There you go. 

Dan Pashman: It's like beer, but different from the other beer. You said 4-vinylguajacol would be like this Christmasy time flavor or whatever. But like, why is that bad? Like, why would you not want that in your beer? 

Mandy Naglich: So if it is like a German wheat beer, you definitely want that. That's like signature to it. But anything else to say? You're trying to make an American pale ale and you want like this big citrus hop flavor. You want very little yeast flavor, but you're getting this like weird clove, like, random — it's a phenol, a random yeast flavor. It would mess up all of your beautiful orange character from the hops. You would just get this weird, spicy, clovey flavor. 

Dan Pashman: Got it. So it's not necessarily bad if it's what you want.

Mandy Naglich: Right. 

Dan Pashman: But if it's not the type of beer you're trying to make, then it would mean you screwed up something. 

Mandy Naglich: Right, exactly. 

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Dan Pashman: So Mandy after this test session ...

Mandy Naglich: Yeah? 

Dan Pashman: How are you feeling? 

Mandy Naglich: I'm feeling pretty good, especially this off-flavor, because there's like a huge — we have a list of like 28 it could have been. So getting both of them, I feel good about that.

Dan Pashman: What's your big takeaway from this study session? 

Mandy Naglich: I think the big takeaway is just go with your gut. 

Dan Pashman: On both of those, you pretty much knew right off the bat. 

Mandy Naglich: Right. And then you guess yourself. 

Dan Pashman: And then you kept second guessing and wondering and tormenting. And so trust your nose. Keep moving. 

Mandy Naglich: There you go. And it’s pretty cool. I mean, I still have a couple of months, so this is making me feel good. 

Dan Pashman: Good. I'm glad. You're in good shape. Will you call me after you take the test?

Mandy Naglich: Yeah, definitely.

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Dan Pashman: For the next three months, Mandy studies hard. Imagine a Rocky Balboa style montage, but instead of punching slabs of meat, she’s crushing empty beer cans on her forehead. In early November, she flies out to Chicago for the two-day exam. When the first day is complete, we connect by Zoom, Mandy in her AirBnb. 

Dan Pashman: I see some beer in the kitchen. 

Mandy Naglich: Yeah, that's from this morning. [LAUGHS] I tasted it and ran out the door. 

Dan Pashman: So just like first off, reactions. Like give me ... how are you feeling besides being tired?

Mandy Naglich: I actually feel incredibly — I feel like 180 compared to this time last time ...

Dan Pashman: Mandy tells me she feels great, much better than after day one last time. She thinks she’s just much more prepared this time around.

Mandy Naglich: You're still nervous that you don't know everything, but I really was — every question that I was asked, I felt like I had an immediate answer to. 

Dan Pashman: Did anything happen that had you nervous that you didn't feel good about?

Mandy Naglich: The last tasting panel where we have to kind of like technically describe four random samples I don't feel like I did great on. It was also the last thing of the day and I was so tired.

Dan Pashman: So for the part where you had to identify beers that they were going to put in front of you, like how did that part go?

Mandy Naglich: Yeah, I mean, so we don't know what they gave us. And there's been times where I'm like, "Oh, is this grapefruit? Is this blood orange?" Something like that, but I feel like I was like, nailing that kind of stuff. 

Dan Pashman: Mandy tells me there are four others taking the test with her. It’s three women, including Mandy, and two men. All of the others work in the beer industry. After the exam, they all gathered outside and compared notes.

Mandy Naglich: I think we all are feeling it seemed spot on, like there was nothing that felt super like they were trying to trick us. This is like we're everything still feeling good and hopefully it's like I come back out tomorrow and I feel the same. You know, it's like that moment where it's like, I'm thinking things could all work out, but you know, I also could totally blow it tomorrow, but we're not going to go down that path. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: After day two, I give Mandy another call …

[PHONE RINGING] 

Mandy Naglich: Hello. 

Dan Pashman: Hey. I hear partying noises in the background. Is there a party happening? 

Mandy Naglich: Well, light partying. We’re just at the brewery across the street. 

Dan Pashman: So, so I mean, I'm dying to hear what happened. How did it go? 

Mandy Naglich: I mean, I think it went well, not as well as yesterday. I was hoping for like a total repeat of yesterday, but we're still looking good. I mean, I'm out drinking beer, not home crying.

Dan Pashman: What specifically makes you feel less confident today? 

Mandy Naglich: There were just a few — so I feel like yesterday it was like through and through, like they just asked an essay question. And I already knew what I was going to write. And today was like, I definitely spent some time — I, actually, took a long walk to the bathroom in the middle of my essay writing to just try to jog my brain. It's like I was like, I know I've read these thing, I know I've studied these things, but exactly what I want to write is like not popping into my brain. 

Dan Pashman: I'm going to ask you to predict your score Mandy. 

Mandy Naglich: [GASPS] [LAUGHS] Okay.

Dan Pashman: 85 is passing. What's your prediction?

Mandy Naglich: Ugh. I mean, I feel like I’m either going to get an 86 or 84.

[LAUGHING] 

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Dan Pashman: Mandy finishes the test November 4th. Industry experts and other Master Cicerones spend the next few weeks grading the exams. Neil from the Cicerones tells us they use detailed rubrics, and multiple graders look at every question to ensure consistency.

Dan Pashman: Typically, the cicerones reach out the first week of December, a month after the test, to schedule a call and give you your results. But that time comes and goes, and Mandy doesn’t hear anything. 

Dan Pashman: Finally, on December 16th, six weeks after finishing the test, Mandy gets the call. As soon as it’s over …

Dan Pashman: Oh, wait, wait. Here, she's coming. Mandy's connecting to the Zoom.

Mandy Naglich: Hello. 

Dan Pashman: Hello? Just tell me, what happened? Did you pass?

Mandy Naglich: [SIGHS] I got an 83. Um, so no. It’s an 85 to pass, so ... [sighs] that’s the update. 

Dan Pashman: I’m really sorry.

Mandy Naglich: Yeah me too, man. So it’s still fresh.

Dan Pashman: Mandy says that of the other four people who took the test, one passed -- a guy who was trying for the third time, who works for AB InBev, the company that makes Budweiser, among many others. Mandy’s quick to add that he’s very deserving. They actually studied together. The others who took the test were trying for the first time and none of them passed. 

Mandy Naglich: And it’s crazy because I know other people who have gotten 83s and then they take it again and they pass. And it’s like how… yeah, but not doing it so. It’s over.

Dan Pashman: You mean you don’t want to take the test again?

Mandy Naglich: No, I just can’t — it’s just so much time and so much money. And I don’t have a company paying for me. And so it's like I have to do more freelance work to be able to pay for this stuff, more brand work, and things that’s not moving my career the way I need it to be going. I’m writing this book now and I like — and I mean, that’s what the proctor on the phone said. He’s like, "What do you mean you're not gonna take it again? You’re so close." and I'm like, I can't —  it’s just so much knowledge to keep in your head and I am always am thinking what else I could do with that brain space. I would have rather gotten a 75, honestly.

Dan Pashman: Right, right. 

Mandy Naglich: You know? Yeah. It’s crazy that I won’t be able to say I’m not a Master Cicerone. But yeah. It’s weird. I’m not used to not passing things, so ...

Dan Pashman: To Mandy, the result feels very arbitrary. She’s especially upset that she got low marks on food and beer pairings, which is usually her strength — she’s writing a book about flavor. Pairings seem so subjective. You know, if they give you an IPA and you say it’s a stout, that’s just wrong. But this is tough for her to accept.

Dan Pashman: Mandy also thinks the scoring rubrics in the pairings section weren’t clearly communicated. A lot of the things she was marked down for not including are things she knew. She just didn’t know she was supposed to include them. 

Mandy Naglich: Ugh. Yeah. It’s really tough to know that it’s not gonna be me in the club, but, uh ... you know?

Dan Pashman: Well, I gotta say, Mandy, I feel like this is a real loss for the cicerones.

Mandy Naglich: Me, too. I know! I had all this feedback that I wanted to give them, just about the test and I have a lot of ideas about how to make it easier on candidates and more welcoming so more people are taking the test. It would be cool for someone who doesn’t work at a big brewery to do it, someone like me. It’s definitely a bummer. I think if I could have taken it in 2020 I would have taken it again in 2021, but just waiting two years and thinking about waiting another year, it feels like I’m staying in the same phase of my life. And it’s like, it’s time to go do other stuff. I can’t just be memorizing BJCP stats for years and years.

Dan Pashman: Right. Well, Mandy, I’m really sorry. 

Mandy Naglich: Me too.

Dan Pashman: Look. It would have been cool to call yourself a Master Cicerone but I don’t think you need them.

Mandy Naglich: Aww. Yeah, me either. I don't either. 

Dan Pashman: I think you’re gonna write a great book and you're gonna do your pairings and events and you’re gonna be successful at it because you’re really good at what you do. And you know, you don't need some people to tell you that.

Mandy Naglich: Thank you. I agree. You know, it’s nice to have a platform now where I really am teaching people about beer everyday and people tell me how much they learn. So, I don’t need this title to keep doing it. For sure. You have to keep saying it until you believe it, right?

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Dan Pashman: How would you like to take one of Mandy Naglich’s beer workshops? Want to learn to taste beer like a pro, or pair beer with food? Mandy does virtual classes on these subjects and more — put a group together. This is the perfect wintertime pandemic activity for you and some friends! Get more info at beerswithmandy.com. You can also find her on Instagram @BeersWithMandy. 

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, we have our friends Eric Eddings and Brittany Luse from the podcast For Colored Nerds here in the studio to settle your food disputes. But before we even get to your calls, Eric and Brittany have their own dispute to hash out … with my help…

CLIP (ERIC EDDINGS): Dan, I’ve trusted your opinions for so long, and really never ever doubted you until this exact moment because you are wrong!

Dan Pashman: That’s next week. In the meantime, please make sure you follow our podcast and in Spotify or Stitcher or subscribe in Apple Podcast. Just connect with us in your podcasting app. Thank you. 

Dan Pashman: Special thanks to Shane and Steve and all the other folks at Carmine Street Beers, as well as to the Cicerone Certification Organization.