Dan Pashman: So, basically, first you make the apples have sex then you have to raise the kids. 

Kate Evans: Right. And then you've got to choose which kid you want to keep and all the rest of them you just get rid of. So that's when it becomes a little kind of — you know? You want to dissociate it from humans at that point. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful. It’s not for foodies, it’s for eaters. I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. You know, when you go to the grocery store, you see strawberries, blueberries, oranges. Most of the time, it’s one kind of each. Right? Yeah, maybe there are two types of oranges. They have red and green grapes. But apples? Apples are different. Red Delicious, Golden Delicious, Granny Smith, Gala, Fuji, Honeycrisp ... the list goes on and on. So many apples!

Dan Pashman: When I was a kid we didn’t have Honeycrisp. That’s how old I am. So where did that come from? How are new apples developed? And what’s wrong with the old ones? That’s what we’re gonna learn about today, because a few years back, a new apple hit the market — it was 20 years in the making, and its launch was hyped as the biggest in apple history. Yes, apple history is a thing. And I got to talk to some of the scientists involved just as it was about to launch. I even tried a special preview of the apple before it went to market. Now, here we are four years later, we also have an update from them on how it all went. Was it as successful as everyone had dreamed it would be? We'll find out. But before we get into that, let’s tell the story from the beginning with a co-host, for this week’s episode. My old friend Helen Zaltzman. Hey, Helen.

Helen Zaltzman: Hello. What a time for us to join together in this very significant moment in apple history.

Dan Pashman: It’s very exciting and longtime listeners will recall you from our discussion of the term brunch.

Helen Zaltzman: Yes, a controversial word.

Dan Pashman: Right. And because you're a language maven, you host the podcast The Allusionist, with an "A," and there's a lot to talk about with apple names. We'll get into that.

Helen Zaltzman: That's right.

Dan Pashman: So Helen, real quick before we get started, what is your relationship with apples?

Helen Zaltzman: It's, I'd say, cordial and platonic. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Helen Zaltzman: How's yours?

Dan Pashman: It happens to be hot and heavy right now, I can tell you. 

Helen Zaltzman: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: I was kind of meh on apples growing up. Then I developed an allergy to apples in my twenties.

Helen Zaltzman: Ooh.

Dan Pashman: I'm allergic to pollen, so the spring —  I always get — you know, when everything's blooming? But there's this mouth allergy that you can develop where I would eat an apple, and the half the time I would get stuffy runny nose, itchy roof of mouth. Then it would go away in 45 minutes. It wasn't that serious, but it made me not eat many apples. And at some point I overcame it. And then I, in recent years, have developed a real love for apples. A nice cold, crunchy, juicy apple is one of my favorite afternoon snacks.

Helen Zaltzman: I'm very impressed that you came back. I'm so happy for you.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]  Thank you. I appreciate it.

Helen Zaltzman: So Dan?

Dan Pashman: Yes.

Helen Zaltzman: Where shall we begin the story of this new apple?

Dan Charles: You know, maybe the first thing people should know is Washington State is like the superpower of apples. You know more than half of all the apples in the country come from Washington state. 

Dan Pashman: This is Dan Charles, he’s an independent writer and audio producer who focuses on food, farming, and climate change. He’s also, by the way, a former editor of The Sporkful. Dan followed this new apple for years.

Dan Charles: Historically, just this just kind of emerged in the apple industry, that there was one dominant apple variety. And everybody knows what it was. You know what it was, right? 

Dan Pashman: Red Delicious. 

Dan Charles: Red Delicious!

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Charles: You know, going back — what is this almost 40 years — 1986. Three-quarters of all the apple orchards in Washington state were planted with Red Delicious. 

Helen Zaltzman: How has the red delicious got away with it for so long? 

Dan Charles: [LAUGHS] You know the story people tell you is that the supermarkets had no interest in anything else that, you know, they want — they said we sell you know the green apple, the Granny Smith, we sell the yellow apple, the Golden Delicious, and we sell the red apple, the Red Delicious. Who needs anything else?

Dan Pashman: Am I right that one of the draws of Red Delicious, aside from the fact that it was red, was that it kept very well?

Dan Charles: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: That it was very durable? 

Helen Zaltzman: Well, it lasts forever because no one wants to eat them.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Charles: And you know, the Washington industry in particular is really dependent on apples that store well. They have these vast buildings. You know, climate controlled?  Because, they harvest, obviously, in the fall but they ship apples throughout the year. So that's really important for them.

Dan Pashman: And was there a time when people thought Red Delicious apples were delicious?

Dan Charles: Yeah, I think there was. But there is also a theory that Red Delicious actually deteriorated over time because sort of apple trees have this characteristic. Like a branch of the tree will start producing apples that are just slightly different. They're called a "sport" of the original variety. The theory is that you go through this process, they actually were just selecting for color. And so that the taste actually deteriorated over time in that variety. But sort of skipping forward, Red Delicious is falling out of favor and these new varieties are coming in. You know, over time there was Fuji, there was Gala, obviously, and then  Honeycrisp really kind of shook up the industry because here was an apple that people were — [LAUGHS] — consumers were willing to pay crazy amounts of money for because it was seen as a superior apple.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, like I'm not allowed to buy Honeycrisp in my house. I go, I come home with Honeycrisp, my wife we'll be inspecting the receipt. She'll be like, "If these were not on sale, you're going back to the store.", like we're not — we don't make honey crisp money.

Dan Charles: Right. Right. So you have these new varieties coming into the marketplace and they're selling and they're selling for better prices. And it's partly because there was this innovation. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: The innovation Dan’s talking about is something called “club apples”.

Helen Zaltzman: And we aren’t talking about apples that sit in the VIP lounge glugging Cristal to music that goes "untz, untz, untz, untz..."

[LAUGHING] 

Helen Zaltzman: “Club apples” are actually new types of apples developed and tightly controlled by cooperatives.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, so the cooperative owns the license to grow a new type of apple and only issues licenses to a few growers for a fee. If you aren’t in the club, you can’t grow the apple.

Helen Zaltzman: You’ve probably seen one of these club apples at the store or farmer’s market. Pink Lady was the first, but there’s also Kiku, Jazz, SnapDragon, Lady Alice.

Dan Pashman: The names of these club apples are not generic plant names. They’re trademarked brand names. So, you know, Helen, it’s kinda like the pharmaceuticals. You know, how the actual name of a medication is like 27 letters and it’s unpronounceable?

Helen Zaltzman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: But the brand name of the drug is like, "Shazam"? 

Helen Zaltzman: You know, I was shocked that apples are also like that. My big question for Dan was: Do these clubs actually produce better tasting apples? 

Dan Charles: I think there's a good argument that this has stimulated the proliferation of new apple varieties that come onto the market and some of ‘em are good.  There were breeding programs coming out with great apple varieties in years past, but there was kind of this chicken and egg problem. The growers didn't want to buy those trees and grow those varieties because they didn't think that consumers would demand them. And so consumers didn't have a chance to taste them. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: You know, you can understand why growers would be reluctant to plant new varieties. It takes a long time to grow an apple tree. They have to commit to planting years before the apple is going to hit the market, so they have no idea if anyone’s going to want to buy it when it’s grown.

Helen Zaltzman: That’s where the apple clubs really help. They control how many growers get licenses, so they control supply, which helps ensure the growers get good prices. And the clubs provide marketing. They make sure when the new apple is ready, there’s a well-funded push to get people to buy it. 

Dan Pashman: All that makes it a lot easier for growers to commit to new apples. Now the club concept isn’t exactly new. The Pink Lady was developed in the early '70s. But it’s only recently that club apples have reached the same level as the classics.

Helen Zaltzman: However, while this revolution has been happening, the growers in Washington State have been largely left out. As Dan Charles explains, they’re still stuck growing Red Delicious.

Dan Charles: So they're looking for a new variety to grow that all sort of get them into this game of, you know, sort of premium higher priced apples. And along comes Washington State University. Because they started up an apple breeding program and they come along with one that they think is really pretty good. And Washington State University says we're going to play this game too. We're gonna play the club apple game. So they hire a marketing company and they come up with a name and a trademark. And the name is ... Cosmic Crisp.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Cosmic Crisp!

Helen Zaltzman: Cosmic Crisp!

Dan Pashman: Cosmic Crisp!

Helen Zaltzman: Cosmic Crisp?

Dan Pashman:  [LAUGHS] We’ll get into that name later.

Helen Zaltzman: Oh, you better believe it.

Dan Charles: They said we're going to put a lot of money into marketing this variety. And at least for the first few years we’re only going to let growers in Washington State grow this thing. So it came along at the right time and under circumstances that made growers, you know, really go for it like gangbusters. 

Dan Pashman: Washington State University spent more than 20 years and a lot of money developing Cosmic Crisp, as a replacement for Red Delicious. They spent 10 million dollars on marketing alone. 

Helen Zaltzman: Having another big apple will really benefit the state’s growers. Meanwhile, the school has its own reasons for investing so much.

Dan Charles: They're gonna be making, I'm guessing, at least one hundred million dollars. They have put nowhere close to that into their breeding programs over the last 20 years. 

Dan Pashman: That's pretty good. Hundred million dollars on apples.

Dan Charles:  You know, and that's so quick. You know, these other varieties like Honey Crisp actually took 20 years to like build a following. 

Dan Pashman: So is there a risk here? 

Dan Charles: Yeah, there is a risk. [LAUGHS] And I think the growers in Washington know that it's a risk. I mean the risk is that they flood the market and consumers are just not overwhelmed and end up not buying the production.

MUSIC

Helen Zaltzman: Have any apples any flopped before?

Dan Charles: I don't think there was ever a launch like this before.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So the stakes are high. Growers in Washington have planted millions of Cosmic Crisp trees essentially on faith. In part they’re counting on the big marketing push the University will provide, but marketing only gets you so far. At the end of the day, this apple better be good.

Kate Evans: Well, it's certainly an exciting time. You know, I think that we saw we've seen for a long time the potential of this apple. And there’s certainly, I believe, space for it out there. So I hope that consumers enjoy it as much as we have.

Helen Zatlzman: This is Kate Evans, she oversees the breeding program that developed the Cosmic Crisp.

Kate Evans: I am the leader of the pome fruit breeding program at Washington State University. I’m a professor of horticulture.

Dan Pashman: Did you just say pomme frite?

Kate Evans: I said ... [LAUGHS] Good one! I said pome fruit, I said. So apple is a pome fruit as is pear and quince and other similarly related fruits. 

Dan Pashman: Got it. 

Kate Evans: I cover apples and pears. 

Dan Pashman: So what's that word? How do you spell it?

Kate Evans: Pome. P-O-M-E.

Dan Pashman: Helen have you heard this word "pome"?

Helen Zaltzman: I'm very excited to hear it. 

[LAUGHING] 

Helen Zaltzman: It sounds like it comes from French apple, pomme.

Kate Evans: It does sound like that. Yes. I presume that there's some relation between the two. But yeah, I'm not a words specialist, so ... 

Helen Zaltzman: That's why I'm here. 

Dan Pashman:  All right. Is it Is it connected to pomegranate?

Helen Zaltzman: Yeah. Pomegranate is — I don't know whether — well, Kate would know whether they are connected fruitwise, but etymologically, pomegranate meant apple with many seeds.

Dan Pashman: Ohh.

Kate Evans: Ah. 

Dan Pashman: Look at all that we’re learning here! So Kate, start at the very beginning here. When you are breeding an apple variety what are the basic qualities that you're judging the apple by. 

Kate Evans: Well, that's that's the fundamental question, right? What is it that you want in an apple? Or what is it that consumers want in an apple? Good textural traits? And that texture itself is complex. Its firmness, crispness, juiciness. All of those things combined. And then, of course, you have the effect of the skin because the skin to the flesh makes a difference in terms of how you perceive the texture. 

Dan Pashman: Yes.

Kate Evans: And then you got all those flavoral traits. You've got tightness, sweetness, aromatics. But also trying to combine that with those traits that would make it work for the grower and for the whole production line. So how well a piece of fruit will store in refrigerated storage makes a big impact to the eating quality of that piece of fruit in say May or June. And so that's an important trait. 

Dan Pashman: Right. I like though, Kate, that you you separate — there's the texture of the skin and then the texture of the interior. 

Kate Evans: Right. 

Dan Pashman: And for me, I think that I really want this skin to feel thin, but yet still firm so that there's like a snap when you bite through that skin. And then I want the apple inside to be very firm and crunchy. 

Kate Evans: Right.

Dan Pashman: But I don't like a thick skin. 

Kate Evans: Right. And nobody does. You know, it's not something that that we'd be selecting for.

Dan Pashman: Is there such a thing as too firm or crunchy of an apple interior?

Kate Evans: Oh, yes. [LAUGHS] This is kind of funny. Yesterday, I was out walking my orchard rows with a student intern that we've got at the moment. And I was explaining about evaluation of seedlings and there are certain — when you you pick an apple off the tree, you've never tasted that fruit before. It looks nice. You think, oh, I'll give it a bite, see what it does, and you can't actually get your teeth in. That's too firm. [LAUGHS]   

Dan Pashman: Right. Right. Is there such thing as an apple that's too juicy?

Kate Evans: Oh, too juicy. I would say, probably not. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, Kate breaks down the science of how the cosmic crisp was born.

Helen Zaltzman: Then later, we will taste the cosmic crisp. 

Dan Pashman: Dun dun dun ... 

Helen Zaltzman: Crunch, crunch, crunch ... 

Dan Pashman: Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, things got a little bit rowdy. I enlisted the writers Jiayang Fan and Samantha Irby to help me take your calls! The listeners shared their hottest takes and most pressing food debates.

CLIP (JIAYANG FAN): I mean, I’m with your dad all the way on this. I mean, my kitchen has always looked like World War III. 

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): [LAUGHS] 

CLIP (JIAYANG FAN): And I think props to you for getting that thing clean in the first place. You get to choose when and how you put it away. I don’t think that she has the right to micromanage.

Dan Pashman: We also hear from a listener in Sweden who’s in a years long battle with her mother and mother’s partner about garlic. It’s up now, it’s a lot of fun, check it out.

Dan Pashman: Now, back to apples, and I’m joined once again by my friend Helen Zaltzman, host of The Allusionist podcast. Hey, Helen. 

Helen Zaltzman: Hello, Dan! So the Cosmic Crisp was first developed by an apple breeder at Washington State University named Bruce Barritt. He’s since retired. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, that’s how long this apple has been in development. The guy who came up with it retired before the apple could come out!

Helen Zaltzman: [LAUGHS] It is really a job for the incredibly patient. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Helen Zaltzman: So Bruce Barritt retired and in comes Kate Evans, who is now professor of horticulture and head of apple breeding at Washington State. She has continued to oversee the program, she’s the one we were speaking with before the break. We heard about the traits they want in an apple. But how do they actually make that happen? 

Kate Evans: The technology has been used for hundreds of years.

Dan Pashman:  So walk us through the basic steps of it. 

Kate Evans: Right. So once you have chosen the trait that you're looking for, the characteristics you're looking for in a new apple, you've got to choose which two parents you think might combine to produce offspring that would have the quality characteristics that you're looking for. 

Dan Pashman:  So in the case of a Cosmic Crisp, who are the parents?

Kate Evans: Honey Crisp, which most people are aware of now, that was its pollen parent or male parent, and then it's female parent was Enterprise.

Dan Pashman: And so Honey Crisp we know is sweet juicy crunchy, like it's a very popular, prized apple in the U.S. What does Enterprise bring to the table?

Kate Evans: So Enterprise was chosen really because of its appearance. It looks really nice. A very pretty apple.

Dan Pashman: And am I right? One of the shortcomings of Honey Crisp has also been that it's not so easy to grow. 

Kate Evans: Correct. Yes. Yes, Honey Crisp — well, certainly in Washington, is challenging to growers.

Dan Pashman: Right. So would Enterprise help to address that?

Kate Evans: Well, that was the hope at the time and certainly it seems as if we've achieved that with this particular cross. 

MUSIC

Helen Zaltzman: So how do they actually do that? Well, like all fruit, apples start out as apple flowers. When pollen fertilizes the flower, the flower makes apple seeds, which grow into apples. Do we have to put an explicit rating on this episode, Dan?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I think we’re okay. But to do a cross, scientists like Kate take the pollen from one apple flower — in this case, on a Honeycrisp tree — and they brush it onto another apple flower — in this case, on an Enterprise tree. 

Helen Zaltzman: That fertilized flower then makes hybrid seeds that will grow to become Cosmic Crisp apples. But in the early going, each one of those apples has 4 to 6 seeds inside it, and each of those seeds is different. Some of them might not make such great apples.

Kate Evans: And so in the same way that you and your siblings are offspring of your two parents, but you’re all different. You’ve all inherited a slightly different combination of genes from your mother and your father, that’s how it is with seeds that in an apple. And so you get differences in those seeds. 

Dan Pashman: And the only way to know for sure which seeds are best is to actually grow them into apple trees. And trees don’t grow overnight. In the end, it took the team at Washington State twenty years. Twenty years to grow the trees, select the best seeds, grow more trees, select the best seeds, and so on until you have seeds that consistently produce the apple you’ve been chasing. But the work isn’t over then.

Helen Zaltzman: That’s right, because as Dan Charles said earlier, a big problem in the past has been that growers didn’t want to plant the trees for a new apple, because they were afraid it wouldn’t sell. 

Dan Pashman: Kate and Washington State University had to convince growers that this apple would sell. And that’s especially hard with an apple, because we all know about so many different varieties already.

Kate Evans: You've got a lot more diversity in the marketplace. You have consumers that know that diversity. They've got their own favorites. You've got consumers that love Granny Smith. You've got consumers that love Golden Delicious.

Dan Pashman: Kate, do not say that you've got consumers that love Red Delicious. 

Kate Evans: [LAUGHS] You have. Absolutely.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Your credibility is going out the window here, Kate. Come on. 

Kate Evans: Well, you know, people buy them. 

Helen Zaltzman: They are people who hate themselves.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHING]  

Kate Evans: So because of that, you know, you have to market an apple in a different way. It has to come out with a name. It has to have some kind of market recognition, right, as the individual variety.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So a new apple needs to stand out from the others, it needs to be memorable. And for that, it needs a great name.

Kathryn Grandy: The naming took somewhere about a year. Six months to really do sensory testing and come up with the name, and then consumer testing probably another six months.

Dan Pashman: This is ...

Kathryn Grandy: Kathryn Grandy. I am chief marketing officer for Proprietary Variety Management and we have been contracted by Washington State University to commercialize the WA-38 which is now called Cosmic Crisp.  

Helen Zaltzman: It’s a catchier name.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Right. Kathryn has been naming and marketing fruit for more than a decade. Her company is one of the big guns in this industry. They’ve worked on apples like Pink Lady, Snap Dragon, Lucy Rose, and more. 

Helen Zaltzman: So could you take us through the kind of process it usually takes to come up with an apple name?

Kathryn Grandy: Sure. You know, as a marketing group, we look at what's the parentage. What does it look like? And then we taste it and you know what's the flavor profile? Is sweet? Is it crunchy? Is it juicy? And then we do sensory testing with consumers.

Dan Pashman: Kathryn’s company brings consumers in for blind testing. Each person get's the apple and they feel and smell and bite into the apple, and they share their impressions. And the company uses those impressions to brainstorm names.

Helen Zaltzman: Kathryn says there are some name suggestions that always come up, but that aren’t as good as people think. 

Kathryn Grandy: you know people love to name fresh fruit after candy and we've had candy cane, candy apple, candy crunch, and it's just like you know taking a fresh piece of fruit that's very nutritious and calling it candy, just — or sugar this? You know, just didn't feel right.

Dan Pashman: Another challenge with apple naming: uniqueness.

Helen Zaltzman: To qualify for a trademark, your name has to be unique. So common names like “Red Beauty” wouldn’t work. 

Dan Pashman: Protecting their trademark is key to Washington State’s success. That’s a big part of how they make sure that anyone who wants to grow Cosmic Crisp has to pay royalties to do it. 

Helen Zaltzman: The last “big apple” was Honeycrisp, but the program at the University of Minnesota that developed Honeycrisp didn’t invest in trademark protection for it and it so lost out on a lot of potential revenue. 

Dan Pashman: With Cosmic Crisp, Washington State is trying to learn from Minnesota’s mistake. They say most of the revenue will be reinvested into the apple breeding program. But all that doesn’t explain the name itself. 

Helen Zaltzman: What was the inspiration for Cosmic?

Kathryn Grandy: So at the focus groups somebody said, "You know, this apple, the lenticels, the little dots in the apple? It makes it look like the night sky.", and so they kind of start brainstorming off that and said, "Yeah. you mean like the Cosmos?". And then somebody else said, "Well, there's Honeycrisp — is one of the parents, so how about Cosmic Crisp?". 

Dan Pashman: I wonder if the sort of evolution from a name like Red Delicious to a name like Cosmic Crisp is also reflective of just a larger change in language and marketing in that I feel like nowadays marketing is more evocative [Kathryn Grandy: Mm-hmm.] and less literal.

Kathryn Grandy: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: The way that you have like Gatorade flavors that are like not flavors. Like Arctic Blast or whatever, like that's not — nothing tastes like arctic blast but it just evokes a feeling. 

Kathryn Grandy: That's right. 

Dan Pashman:  So I wonder if that's a larger trend. 

Kathryn Grandy: Oh, definitely. In naming that apple, we're looking at, you know, what is our story and how can we make this really intriguing to the consumer. 

Helen Zaltzman: There's an apple called Strawberry. How is that allowed?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Helen Zaltzman: That's just confusing. 

[LAUGHING] 

Kathryn Grandy: Well, maybe it looks like a strawberry?

Dan Pashman: Maybe it has hints of strawberry in its flavor. 

Helen Zaltzman: Not good enough.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Helen Zaltzman: I like that there's one called Jonathan as well. That's the normcore apple.  

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Kathryn Grandy: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: I think though my favorite might be Laxton's Epicure apple

Helen Zaltzman: Ooh, classy. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, it's very fancy sounding. 

Helen Zaltzman: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: But the internet says it bruises easily, Helen. 

Helen Zaltzman: Oh, no. No one wants that. 

Dan Pashman: All right, Catherine, before we let you go we're gonna play a special game.

Helen Zaltzman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: You and Helen are both contestants. This game is called Apple Cariety or New England town. 

Kathryn Grandy: [LAUGHS] Hey. 

Dan Pashman: You ready to play?

Kathryn Grandy: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: Ash Meads Colonel. 

Helen Zaltzman: Oh, town. 

Kathryn Grandy: I was going to say town.

Dan Pashman: Ash meets Colonel is an apple 

Kathryn Grandy: Ohhh. 

Helen Zaltzman: Ohh.

Dan Pashman: Cumberland. 

Kathryn Grandy: Apple. 

Dan Pashman: What do you think, Helen?

Helen Zaltzman: I'm going to go apple. 

Dan Pashman: Cumberland is a town. 

Helen Zaltzman: Oh, come on.

Dan Pashman: Man, you guys are struggling. I thought I was gonna have to make this game harder. I mean, this is a game that I have played many times before because I'm very cool. Next one, Leominster. 

Helen Zaltzman: I mean that's an England England town, called Leominster. Would therefore that exporting that as a town to New England? Hmm. I don't think you'd call an apple that.

Dan Pashman: So you're saying town?

Helen Zaltzman: I'm gonna go town. 

Dan Pashman: Catherine?

Helen Zaltzman: I feel very insecure. 

Kathryn Grandy: I have no idea, but I'd say town. 

Dan Pashman: You are both correct. Leominster [Helen Zaltzman: Oh, thank goodness.] is a town. [LAUGHS] 

Kathryn Grandy: We've saved face, Helen. 

Dan Pashman: Yes, it's spelled L-E-O-M but it's pronounced like the fruit lemon, that's what I thought was tricky. Next one: Adams Pearman. 

Helen Zaltzman: Oh, I'm going to go apple for that even though this is pear in the name. 

Kathryn Grandy: Yeah, apple. 

Dan Pashman: You are correct. Apple.

Helen Zaltzman: See we’re warmed up now. 

Dan Pashman: All right. Now you're getting good. Now that narrow coming down the homestretch. Here we go. Baldwin. 

Helen Zaltzman: Apple. 

Kathryn Grandy: Apple. 

Dan Pashman: That one is both. It was a trick question. 

Helen Zaltzman: Oh, come on. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Helen Zaltzman: Curse you, Dan Pashman. 

Dan Pashman: Next one: Strong. 

Helen Zaltzman: Apple?

Kathryn Grandy: Town.

Dan Pashman: It is a town. Point for Catherine. 

Helen Zaltzman: Ugh. 

Kathryn Grandy: Ohh, I'm feeling quite cocky over here. 

[LAUGHING] 

Helen Zaltzman: You've earned it. 

Dan Pashman: You sound like you've got more swagger right now, Catherine. 

Kathryn Grandy: Yeah, yeah. Completely. 

Dan Pashman: One more for you. Apple variety or New England town? Cumberbatch. 

[LAUGHING] 

Kathryn Grandy: Oh boy.

Helen Zaltzman: Hmm. Town. 

Kathryn Grandy: I would say it's a town.

Dan Pashman: The correct answer is neither. 

Kathryn Grandy: Ohh.

Helen Zaltzman: Ugh, that's not fair. 

Dan Pashman: Come on, Cumberbatch?

Kathryn Grandy: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: It's not a town or an apple variety. It's a heartthrob 

Helen Zaltzman: Then it doesn't belong in this quiz, Dan. 

[LAUGHING] 

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Dan Pashman: All right. Well, that was a very fun game, Helen. 

Helen Zaltzman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: But as I think we’ve made clear, the folks at Washington State aren’t playing. 

Helen Zaltzman: Yeah, this is the biggest launch in apple history.

Dan Pashman: In the first year, 12 million trees were ordered and 5 million boxes of Cosmic Crisp apples were delivered to grocery stores. And that was considered “limited availability.” But luckily, even before it launched, we managed to get our hands on some Cosmic Crisps. I chilled mine because I think that colder apples are crunchier. And now, Helen?

Helen Zaltzman: It's time time. 

Dan Pashman: It's time for the moment of truth. I understand you already ate yours?

Helen Zaltzman: Well, I couldn't wait any longer to understand what all the fuss is about.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Helen Zaltzman: Also, I had to fly to Canada and I couldn't take it over the border. 

Dan Pashman: Oh. Come on, Helen. Really? Is that really what the TSA is most concerned with?

Helen Zaltzman: I got fined four hundred New Zealand dollars for accidentally bringing an apple into New Zealand earlier this year, so I'm not taking the risk.

Dan Pashman: So you're already a renowned international apple smuggler.

Helen Zaltzman: Yeah. 

[LAUGHING] 

Helen Zaltzman: Well, failed Apple smuggler. 

Dan Pashman: Right. Right. Okay. So, I want to hear what you thought but I don't wanna be biased by your opinions.

Helen Zaltzman: Yeah, no. 

Dan Pashman: So let me take a bite and then we'll discuss. All right, they sent me four. I'm checking each one to see which one seems most perfect. 

Helen Zaltzman: They're very perfect looking apples. Like you'd cast one of those apples in a production of Snow White. 

Dan Pashman: Yes. They're round. But there's some variation from each one some. Some are more uniformly dark red. Others have more of a light red area. But then I do see the cosmic — I don't know that I would have equated them to stars, but I understand what they're saying. 

Helen Zaltzman: Hm. 

Dan Pashman: These little — I think freckles is a better analogy is a little ...

Helen Zaltzman: Yeah, they're reminding me a bit of a dappled horse. 

Dan Pashman: Yes. It is a nice deep dark shade of red which I find very satisfying. 

Helen Zaltzman: Eat it. Eat it. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] All right I'm going in. 

[DAN PASHMAN BITES INTO A COSMIC CRISP APPLE]

Dan Pashman: Mmm. That is very juicy, very juicy. The juice is running down the side of the apple. 

Helen Zaltzman: And how do you feel about that? Do you feel like it adding a level of stress? 

Dan Pashman: I would never say an apple was too juicy. I'll get my hands messy. It does feel like — you know how like the screens on devices keep getting brighter and brighter and brighter? 

Helen Zaltzman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: The entire sensory experience of this apple is just amped up and elevated. You know? 

Helen Zaltzman: That's a very good way of putting it. 

Dan Pashman: It's extremely crunchy, extremely juicy, extremely sweet, and also, acidic. Like it's just — it's, like, a technicolor apple. 

Helen Zaltzman: I did think, before tasting it, "Oh, will any apple live up to 20 years of development?". And then having eaten it, I thought, " Yeah, maybe." What I admired about it is that it's sweet but it's not too sweet, which I think is a hard balance. And also it is very crisp. So maybe if it was not as sweet as it is then it would [DAN PASHMAN COUGHS] be a little sharp in one's mouth. 

Dan Pashman: Wait, hold on one second. [COUGHS]  

Helen Zaltzman: This is how he dies. Oh no.

Dan Pashman: No. Yeah, right. [LAUGHING] No, I wasn't choking on apple. The juice — the apple is so juicy that I had apple juice go down the wrong pipe. That's what just happened to me. 

Helen Zaltzman: Jeepers. 

Dan Pashman: This might be the juiciest apple I've ever eaten.

Helen Zaltzman: At what price? 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Helen Zaltzman: It's not worth dying over. You said it couldn't be too juicy, but ... 

Dan Pashman: Maybe that's the marketing ploy Cosmic Crisp is going after. The apple is so juicy, it killed Dan Pashman.

Helen Zaltzman: [LAUGHING] 

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Dan Pashman: All of those conversations happened back in 2019. Recently, we caught up with Kate Evans, the scientist you heard from earlier to get an update on the Cosmic Crisp. Now, she’s no longer working on the apple because, as a breeder, her work stops when the apple launches. But she told us that the apple’s expansion has been both exponential and unprecedented. There are now 21 million Cosmic Crisp trees planted in Washington State, and it was in the top 10 apple varieties sold by volume in the U.S. last year.

Dan Pashman: And Kate says, even though she's not really involved in Cosmic Crisp anymore, whenever she goes into her local Safeway, she makes sure the sign for the apple is facing outwards, prominently on display. And she loves it when she sees a shopper making a beeline for the Cosmic Crisp bin. A repeat customer is highest praise.

Dan Pashman: Special thanks to my old friend, Helen Zaltzman of The Allusionist podcast. It is a great show all about language, including a recent two-parter about the word “fat.” They have a lot of other thought-provoking episodes, so I hope you'll check it out. Listen to The Allusionist, with an "A", wherever you get your podcasts.

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, I talk with my friend, James Park, who has written an entire cookbook all about chili crisp. While you’re waiting for that one, check out last week’s call-in show with Samantha Irby and Jiayang Fan. They settle your food disputes, including one from my mom and things overall get a little raucous and rowdy. That’s one's up now, check it out. 

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