Dan Pashman: This episode contains explicit language.

Jiayang Fan: I've had like, um, guys tell me like on a first date, "Oh, there's like spinach, like right, like in your between your teeth.", and it was so mortifying for me. You know?

Dan Pashman: Oh, see that — I am a big proponent — I will tell a total stranger that they have something stuck in their teeth.

Jiayang Fan: No, I think ...

Dan Pashman: I feel like you always want to tell people. It's just — 

Jiayang Fan: You totally ...

Dan Pashman: It's a nice thing to do to tell someone.

Samantha Irby: Mm-hmm.

Jiayang Fan: No, I never feel any, like — I'm grateful to the other person. I'm just so deeply ashamed of myself.

Dan Pashman: Right, right.

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. This week we are taking your calls, we're going to take on some food related disputes, we're going to listen to your hot takes, we're going to solve your problems, or try at least. But I can't do that on my own, okay? I need help. So I've enlisted two opinionated, food obsessed folks to help. They're also two past Sporkful guests, and I'm just going to say it, two leading women of letters, two of our country's best writers. I'll say it. You don't have to. we have Samantha Irby. Her most recent book is Quietly Hostile. She's also a writer and producer on the sex and the city reboot, And Just Like That. Coming to us from Kalamazoo, Michigan. Hey, Sam.

Samantha Irby: Hey, Dan. And I do agree that we are both the most talented writers.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: And right here alongside me here in the studio in New York is New Yorker staff writer, Jiayang Fan. Hey, Jiayang.

Jiayang Fan: Hi, Dan, and I'm going to have to second that.

[LAUGHING]

Jiayang Fan: Well, mostly for Sam. Mostly for Sam. Can I half second that?

Dan Pashman: You can each say it for the other. How's that? 

Samantha Irby: Yes. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Now, before we get to our calls, I want to catch up with both of you because it's been a while since we've had you on the show. Sam, food's a big part of your work.

Samantha Irby: Yes.

Dan Pashman: In your new book, Quietly Hostile, you have a whole essay about how you're an amazing guest at a party.

Samantha Irby: Oh, yes. I am the perfect party guest. 

Dan Pashman: Why? 

Samantha Irby: I will behave, which is like number one, right?

Dan Pashman: Right.

Samantha Irby: I'm not gonna tear up your house. I'm not gonna fight.

Dan Pashman: That seems like a low bar, but okay.

Samantha Irby: [LAUGHS] But also, like, I will sample your food. And not everybody does that, right? Like some people go to parties and they're like, "Oh, you made this? I won't eat it.", but I will try it. I will not dress up too nice, so you can be the star.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: And I will — I'll stay late to help clean up and also eat all the leftover shards of chips and crackers that people left behind.

Dan Pashman: So you sort of clean up by vacuuming by eating.

Samantha Irby: [LAUGH] Well, okay, that makes me sound like — I don't know what.

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: But I will —  yeah. That's sort of my reward for helping to clean up. 

Dan Pashman: But now Sam, you've talked and written a lot about the fact that you have a stomach that doesn't always cooperate.

Samantha Irby: Uh-huh.

Dan Pashman: As a person who lives with digestive issues and Crohn's disease, as you've talked about, when you go to someone else's house and you're saying you're going to be polite, you're going to eat something, but what if it's something that you know is going to be trouble?

Samantha Irby: Then I will steer clear. But the worst is like people don't always know exactly what's in things.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Samantha Irby: [LAUGHS] So I have had to leave parties early.

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: Like, hey girl, congratulations on the baby or whatever. Goodbye.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: So Jiayang, the last time that I saw you, the last time we were together, we were fighting our way through a Chinese market in Chinatown on the eve of Lunar New Year.

Jiayang Fan: Oh, I recall that.

Dan Pashman: It was crowded and there were a lot of aunties throwing elbows at us.

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: You have some of your bruises from that?

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: That was fun.

Jiayang Fan: I've returned many times.

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

Jiayang Fan: So the bruises have, you know, come and gone and come and gone again.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] So a lot of your writing focuses on China and the Chinese American experience, but you've also, in the last year or two, written a couple of restaurant reviews. So, as a person who isn't, like, a restaurant critic by trade, how do you approach that?

Jiayang Fan: I mean, really, I don't know how else to put this, except that I really think of myself as a food trash can, rather than a connoisseur.

[LAUGHING]

Jiayang Fan: Which I think offers a unique perspective in the world of food writing, where you have a lot of very educated, very refined tastemakers.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: So, Jiayang, a little while back you posted on Instagram. I love this post that you wrote, “If love is an imperceptible kind of surrender, helpless and fierce, rooted in loyalty, as unswerving as it is illogical, [Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS] Oh, God.] please meet the first loves of my Sichuanese youth."

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Can you tell us? Remind us what was in that photo?

Jiayang Fan: Yes. It's a series of photos of about 15 different kinds of snacks that were really popular. The snacks of my childhood from the '80s and '90s. And there were these strange flavored peanuts. That's literally the name of the snack. White rabbit candy, which I think those who frequent Chinatown are familiar with. My favorite food in the worlds is Chinese beef jerky, which you literally can't get in this country. It's priceless.

Dan Pashman: What makes it special?

Jiayang Fan: The jerky that you get in this country usually don't include the gristle. And the Sichuanese ones, they include the fat, the gristle, a little bit of the cartilage. And also, [Samantha Irby: Mm-hmm.] they are spiced with Sichuanese peppercorns that give that mala flavor, that numbing flavor, and they're drenched in Sichuanese peppercorn oil. And I'm salivating as I'm describing it to you. 

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: It sounds really good. Beef jerky in the U.S. is often kind of like portrayed as traveling snack.

Jiayang Fan: Yes.

Dan Pashman: You know, like these seem like they might not be quite as good to like shove in the bottom of your purse.

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS] the Chinese have gotten very good. I mean, when I was young, they were in these big packages that you couldn't really take with you on the go. But now they've made them into these micro packages that you could shove in the bottom of your purse because they're like one bite. I think I was really overcome with the richness of the flavors. I mean, how aggressive the flavors are and how different they are from American snacks. I think because I hadn't had them in decades, there is something about [LAUGHS] your GI tract that is the pathway to your past, which seems so obvious but when you experience it and you have not in, for me, in two decades or more, I felt I was returned to a seven-year-old, a five-year-old to those moments of first having those snacks.

Dan Pashman: Sam, Jiayang said that the GI tract is a pathway to your past. As someone who has written frequently about your own GI tract ...

Samantha Irby: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Do you have anything to add to that idea? 

Samantha Irby: Mine is a — first of all, that was so beautiful when she said that. I was like, yeah. But my GI tract is a pathway to hell.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Samantha Irby: And on the road we have scar tissue and fissures and hemorrhoids.

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: So, [LAUGHS] those are the hitchhikers going on this journey with the food. But I do understand that having something — I don't cook soul food, but when I have some, that like a real old black lady made, [JIANYANG FAN LAUGHS] it does transport me back to being a kid.

Dan Pashman: Now Jiayang, I believe that you're the only one of us who's not in a a longterm relationship. And so you're out on the dating scene. What's going on in the world of food and dating. What do you want to share with us?

Jiayang Fan: I've just been going on these terrible dates where, like, they fall — it's fallen apart because of food.

Samantha Irby: [GASPS]

Jiayang Fan: And there was just literally, there was one guy, I mean, like, two weeks ago, who said, “I'm very white and you are very not.” I was like, “Do you mean racially or like aesthetically?” And he was like, "In every sense, I think I'm just very white and you are very, very not." You know, he was like, I just want egg whites and avocado toast.

Samantha Irby: [GROANS]

[LAUGHING]

Jiayang Fan: He was like, "I don't eat breakfast. I don't eat lunch. I have like egg white and toast for dinner every day."

Dan Pashman: What a sad state of affairs.

Samantha Irby: Were you in a restaurant when he said this?

Jiayang Fan: Yes. He was uncomfortable slurping his oysters.

Samantha Irby: Oh my God.

Jiayang Fan: He had no idea. He ordered bone marrow, but had no idea how to eat it. And I think he was horrified by the quantity of the food I was eating because he said, "Oh, [Samantha Irby: Oh...] like, usually the girls I, like, go on dates with are, like, very light eaters.", and I was not one of them.

Samantha Irby: Oh, fuck him. Get outta here.

[LAUGHING]

Jiayang Fan: But it was so — it was like sociologically interesting for me, and I honestly think I lost him. Like, I think he was so appalled.

Dan Pashman: Uh, Jiayang, he lost you. 

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: He lost you. Like, come on. Come on. Don't play like that. He — no. You win.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Keep moving, keep moving. Nothing to see here. Nothing to see here. Uh uh.

Samantha Irby: Nuh-uh.

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: On our first date, my wife picked up her plate and licked it.

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: She has super spicy chilaquiles, and I was like ... this is my girl! Right?

Dan Pashman: It sounds like I hear wedding bells!

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: And I was like, pack up the U-Haul. This is the one.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: There you go, Jiayang.

Samantha Irby: No, if a person can't, like, let you eat — like if anyone has anything to say about your food, you just — nuh-uh. Bye. Goodbye.

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All right, Sam and Jiayang, I think we've established that you both love food in your own ways. You both have a lot of opinions about food and life, so I think you're well-equipped to help me help some Sporkful listeners. You ready? 

Samantha Irby: Yes.

Jiayang Fan: Yes, as ready as I'll ever be.

Dan Pashman: All right, let's go to the phones. Hi, who's this?

Malin: Hi, my name is Malin and I'm calling from Lund in Sweden.

Dan Pashman: Hi Malin! Say hi to my friends Jiayang and Sam.

Malin: Hi.

Jiayang Fan: Hello, there.

Samantha Irby: Hi.

Dan Pashman: So what can we do for you?

Malin: Well, We've had this disagreement in my family about garlic because my mother's partner, for years, he has refused to eat anything with even a smidge of garlic in it, even when it doesn't taste like garlic. Like when he and my mom first got together, my sister cooked your standard pasta sauce, you know, two cloves of garlic, onion, tomato sauce. He sort of covered his face and ran out of the apartment because he couldn't stand the smell of garlic. And this has sort of continued on for years. He's refused things like taco seasoning because it says garlic on the package. And then after almost two decades of this, I recently found out that it's not because he doesn't like the taste, it's not because he has any sort of allergies or anything. It's because when he was younger and was a man about town, they avoided garlic in case you hooked up. 

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS] 

Malin: And we didn't know this. My mom only found this out, like, a few months ago. and I think she was shocked as well because she sort of started avoiding garlic in all foods, and she's a woman who sort of like, eats like kimchi because she's had to take a lot of medicine and she eats kimchi because it helps her digestive system. So this woman who was always like up for trying foods started to veer away from this, like, oh, maybe we shouldn't. Garlic was banned. And since that was the only issue, I sort of started, whenever I made meals for them, just including garlic and not saying anything.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So, just to clarify, your mothing and this guy have been together for 20 plus years? 

Malin: Almost 20 plus years. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. Up until recently, what did you think was the reason? Like what, what did your mother think? What did you all think was the reason that he didn't eat garlic?

Malin: I don't know. Cause the thing is we have a lot of allergies and like intolerances in the family, so I'm quite used to substituting, 

Samantha Irby: Do you think he — because you said he doesn't eat garlic, or he started not eating garlic [Malin: Mm-hmm.] when he was dating, do you think he's faithful to your mom? 

Malin: He hasn't always been in the past. 

Samantha Irby: Mm. 

Malin: Mm-hmm. 

Samantha Irby: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Sam, getting right to the heart of the matter here.

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS] And so far, has he expressed any suspicion [Malin: No.] about the presence of garlic? 

Malin: None.

Samantha Irby: Does he have any other problems, like physically?

[LAUGHING]

Malin: No. No ... 

Samantha Irby: Cause you know, sometimes people like who don't have anything going on [Malin: Mm-hmm.] have to like invent a problem so they can fit in. 

Malin: No. No, that's the thing. He has a medical condition. That means he should sort of tweak his diet a little bit to eat a bit more healthier, which is ironically how my mom's been eating since the '80s when I was born. But he doesn't — classical man, like meat and potatoes and a sauce. It doesn't matter if it came out of a container as long as it's a sauce. [SAMANTHA IRBY LAUGHS] And ice cream, that kind of — anything that's a vegetable is suspicious. And my partner is vegan, so we cook a lot of vegan meals, and anything that's vegan he doesn't touch. Except my mom makes a cake with marzipan and dark chocolate that is vegan and that mysteriously disappears from the freezer and he claims it's the dog.

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: I do that too, I can't get mad at him.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: From the time that he came into the picture to today, has his position on garlic been consistent? Or were there times where he seemed more or less concerned about eating garlic?

Malin: I'd say he's been pretty consistent.

Dan Pashman: The theory I was testing is if we could detect a pattern. And if there were times when he was avoiding garlic, would that be an indication that he was stepping out? And then when he was not so concerned about eating garlic, maybe that's a time when he's staying closer to home. 

Malin: I don't think he's that subtle. 

[LAUGHING] 

Malin: I'm sorry. I know.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I was giving him too much credit is what you're saying. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: And so when you first learned this information after nearly 20 years, that this sort of constant issue of the garlic was for the reason that he said, what about your mom? How did she feel hearing this information for the first time?

Malin: I don't know exactly how she felt, but I've noticed in her behavior, like when she gets food, she's like, "I'm going to get salad. I want salad for lunch." And if he doesn't want salad, she's like, "Too bad. Go to the grocery store, get soup. I don't care." And I brought her — as I said, my mom eats kimchi for her stomach. So whenever I'm at the Asian grocery store, I pick up a little bit of that for her. And I got a new kind and I came home and opened the container and she was like, Oh, great. They'll have some. And he's — he was like, "Oh, it stinks!" And my mom was like, "You don't like it? Leave the house." Like they live separately. 

Samantha Irby: Can we find your mom a new boyfriend? 

[LAUGHING] 

Malin: We're working on it.

Samantha Irby: Okay, good. Okay. [LAUGHS] Okay, good.

Dan Pashman: So this garlic discovery really seems like a catalyzing event. It seems like really it's changed the way your mom approaches her whole relationship with her partner.

Malin: Well, at least her relationship with food around him. Because before, like, I think a lot of women, we sort of accommodate. We're sort of raised to sort of be inviting, make it — you know, be a good hostess. Like, cook your guests or the people in your life what they want to eat. And as I said, we have a lot of allergies and tolerance in the family and so I sort of naturally have that setting, oh, this person cannot eat this. How can I tweak what I'm making ...

Dan Pashman: Sam, what's your take?

Samantha Irby: This behavior is very much like, you know, when your kid decides to be vegetarian for a week, you have to change everything you do to satisfy this one person who doesn't even really care that much. They're kind of like getting off on the fact that you have to now shop at a whole different store to get their tofu or whatever, their seitan.

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Samantha Irby: My take is that he's desperate for some kind of attention or recognition or, you know, he wants everyone to worry about him or do things — like go out of their way for him. And for a 70-year-old man, I would never indulge that. I wouldn't do it for a 10-year-old boy. I would just make what I'm gonna make, make stuff for my mom, and not worry about him.

Dan Pashman: Jiayang? 

Jiayang Fan: Yeah, I mean, I think my position on this has evolved through our conversation, [SAMANTHA IRBY LAUGHS] [Dan Pashman: Okay.] and as I've learned more. I was that difficult teenager who wanted to be vegetarian for a year. And I remember a very specific experience of, you know, going with my mother to a friend's house. And that woman just took it upon herself. She was like, I do not care like what this bratty 16-year-old wants. I'm just going to put minced meat in there. She won't be able to detect it. And I did find it absolutely delicious. 

[LAUGHING] 

Jiayang Fan: But I found out afterwards that there was meat in there and I felt deeply betrayed, even though I very much enjoyed the meal. On the one hand, there is a real childish quality to a 70-year-old man who does not contribute much in the way of cooking or assembling a meal and is making this rather unreasonable demand. On the other hand, I do wonder about how — I mean, usually it's an immature person that reacts most violently to even the most trivial kinds of betrayal. If for whatever reason he finds out, it won't be about the garlic. It'll be about like the sense of emotional betrayal and how that might make him suspect how he's being deceived in other parts of his life. 

Dan Pashman: The question to sort of wrap it up on is like, I think our general feelings about this guy are all aligned. [SAMANTHA IRBY LAUGHS] Is it okay for Malin to continue to sneak small amounts of garlic into the food that she cooks? What's your take, Jiayang?

Jiayang Fan: I think it's ethical to continue using the garlic. As long as you're mentally prepared that, you know, by whatever means one day he might find out and to have in your head, you know, kind of a script prepared. What I imagine saying is like, listen, I understand that you might feel kind of betrayed, but I have taken on the responsibility of cooking for you or my mother has for, you know, for the last 20 years. And given the irrationality of, you know, the reason behind it, it seems like a really big ask that you have made. I respect that you feel that you've been betrayed, but let's look at the bigger context here.

Dan Pashman: Sam? Ethical to continue sneaking garlic in or not?

Samantha Irby: I'm such a, like, punitive, petty asshole.

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: I — like, I don't know about the ethics of sneaking, but it feels like a little unethical, you know? But my approach would be like, hey, I made this. It has garlic in it. You eat it or you don't. If this was a little kid, I mean, I would still try to punish him in some way because I'm terrible, [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] but that would be one thing. But like, this is a grown man. He can order a pizza. He can heat up a frozen dinner. Do they have those in Sweden? [LAUGHING] He can go to IKEA and eat meatballs. Like, whatever.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, in Sweden, the dinners stay frozen even after you take them out of the freezer.

[LAUGHING] 

Malin: Depends on where you're on the country.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So Malin, how does all this sound to you? 

Malin: Well, I'm leaning towards a sort of don't ask, don't tell kind of policy.

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS]

Samantha Irby: Mm-hmm. 

Malin: Like if I make something and I go, here, this is pasta sauce. And if he doesn't ask …

Dan Pashman: Malin, if you were to give him that speech that Jiayang just prepared for you, how do you think he would respond?

Malin: I think he might just sort of storm out and slam the door and ... Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: And would that be ... 

Malin: But I mean, if ... 

Dan Pashman: A good outcome or a bad outcome? 

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS] 

Malin: I mean, I don't know. We already know what he does when, you know, I bring kimchi over. So if we want him to leave the house, we'll just go open a jar of kimchi and problem solved. 

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All right, well, Malin in Sweden, thank you so much. Good luck with sneaking some more garlic into your next big family feast. 

Samantha Irby: Good luck. 

Malin: Thank you.

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: All right, coming up, we're going to help solve more of your food disputes, and we'll hear your piping hot food takes. Sam and Jiayang, stick around?

Samantha Irby: Yes. 

Jiayang Fan: I wouldn't miss it.

Dan Pashman: All right. I'll be right back.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. Hey, you're looking for some reading recommendations? Some watching and listening recommendations? How about some recipe or eating recommendations? Well, guess what? The Sporkful has a newsletter and we provide that service to you free of charge every week. It's just one email a week. We'll tell you what the whole Sporkful team is eating and reading and we'll update you on that week's episode. Plus, if you're on our mailing list, you're automatically entered into just about every contest and give away that we do. So get on the list! Sign up at sporkful.com/newsletter. Go ahead, you can do it right now. Sporkful.com/newsletter.

Dan Pashman: Before you get back to the show, one more quick important piece of information, which is that the Stitcher app is going away on August 29th. Don’t worry, that doesn’t mean The Sporkful is going anywhere. It just means you won’t be able to listen to our show on the Stitcher app. So if you were a Stitcher user, head on over to the SiriusXM app or Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or one of the many other listening apps out there. The Sporkful remains on all of them. And when you do that, please make sure to subscribe or follow us on those apps. Go to our show page and click the heart or the plus or the follow or whatever it is. That way you'll never miss an episode. We’re still making a plan for what will happen to our archive of hundreds of episodes, so stay tuned for more of that down the road. And thank you, as always, for listening. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All right. Back to the show. And I'm joined once again by writers Sam Irby, whose new book is Quietly Hostile, and New Yorker writer Jiayang Fan. Hello again to both of you. 

Samantha Irby: Hello. 

Jiayang Fan: Great to still be here. 

Dan Pashman: So we put the call out to Sporkful listeners asking for hot takes, rapid fire food disputes. We're going to get to all those, but I understand that each of you also brought in a food hot take for us to discuss and debate. Sam, you want to go first? What do you got? 

Samantha Irby: Yes. Mine is kind of a two in one. My hot take is that almost everything is better when you get it from the store.

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: Like, I'm not on Top Chef. I'm not making my own aioli. I'm not making my own salad dressing. I'm not eating anyone's home canned tomatoes. I love convenience things, like garlic that's already minced, onions that are already chopped. [LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Right, you want food that's already cooked.

Samantha Irby: I mean — no, I like to cook it. I like to put it all together.

Dan Pashman: Look, like sliced mushrooms? You know, slicing mushrooms to me is an especially tedious task. 

Samantha Irby: Correct. 

Dan Pashman: I will always buy pre-sliced mushrooms. 

Samantha Irby: Yeah. My wife is a — like, you know, she just got a bushel of apricots from her farmer. Like, I mean, come on?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Samantha Irby: And she made apricot jam. And I'm sure it's delicious, but I'll never know, because I like my jam from the store. [LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Wait, wait. Even if someone — like, you won't even try her apricot jam? 

Samantha Irby: No. 

Dan Pashman: Why not?

Samantha Irby: Because I — this is my version of that 70-year-old Swedish man. 

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: Because I'm just like, you know, how do I know there's no botulism in it? You know what I mean? 

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: How do I know? [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Jiayang, what about you?

Jiayang Fan: I mean, I think I'm gonna get hate mail for this, quite frankly, but I feel very strongly about this. I think mayonnaise is just trash, and I've felt this way, [SAMANTHA IRBY GASPS] for — I know! I know! People, I mean — 

Samantha Irby: It's okay. 

Jiayang Fan: People’s jaws drop.

Samantha Irby: I'm from the Midwest. It's like half of my blood is mayonnaise, so ... 

[LAUGHING]

Jiayang Fan: I think what bothers me is that it is in so much ready-made food. I literally cannot scrape it off. You know, it's in egg salad, tuna salad. And I have such a strong aversion to it that it just, for me, ruins whatever it is architecturally a part of. And I would just like it to be on the side, for it to be always on the side, so that you can choose the quantity and the location.

Dan Pashman: I mean, I like mayo a lot. But I agree. I think this — you know, there is this sort of strong anti-mayo contingent. I think part of the problem is that a lot of times there's just way too much mayo. I love mayo, but I think it's something that should be used in moderation. In moderation, I think it's phenomenal. But the problem is that if you have a couple of unpleasant experiences with something that's just absolutely slathered in mayo, it will really kind of scar you. It's like the time that I accidentally drank, you know, warm tequila out of the trunk of a car in high school ... 

Jianyang Fan: [LAUGHS] 

Samantha Irby: Ohhh. Ohh. 

Dan Pashman: And I couldn’t drink tequila for 10 years. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: That, I just wish that people would dial back the mayo a little bit. And I think that you wouldn't be leaving some people having the strong aversion.

Jiayang Fan: I mean, that, that could could be right.

Dan Pashman: That's a strong take, Jiayang. And I expect nothing less from you because the last time you were on the show, you said you didn't like dumplings.

Jiayang Fan: Yes. I mean, I thought you were going to ask me that.

Dan Pashman: Sam’s face!

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: I just had dumplings yesterday! 

Dan Pashman: I just had them two hours ago. 

Samantha Irby: What is going on? Man, I thought you were going to be my new best friend, but now, I don't know.

[LAUGHING] 

Jiayang Fan: I also hate hamburgers. 

Samantha Irby: [LAUGHS] 

Jianyang Fan: I sourced it to a hatred of ground meat in any form and ...

Dan Pashman: Ohh.

Samantha Irby: Oh, That lady who snuck that meat in on you [JIAYANG FAN LAUGHS] when you were 16, ruined it forever.

Dan Pashman: That's right! That's what it was! Yes. Wow. We're making a lot of progress here today.

Jiayang Fan: I know. [LAUGHS] 

Samantha Irby: Mm-hmm. 

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: Yeah. You don't need therapy this week. We got it.

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All right. Well, it's time now to hear some hot takes and food debates from Sporkful listeners. We're going to do this kind of rapid-fire style. We're going to listen to what they have to say. We're all going to weigh in. You ready? 

Samantha Irby: Yes.

Dan Pashman: All right, here we go.

Kristen: Hi, my name's Kristen. I live in Seattle and I want to share a hot take with you. I think that peanut butter toast can only be called toast if it had regular butter on top of the toasted bread before you put on the peanut butter. So peanut butter toast needs to be bread, butter, peanut butter.

Samantha Irby: Does she work for the butter lobby? Like, come on. 

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: The toast is the bread is toasted. It has nothing to do with the butter.

Dan Pashman: So that's the key question though, Sam. And I wanted to bring this to the two of you because you're both women of letters. You're both writers. You think about words. And really that's what this question is. What Kristen seems to be saying here is that it's only toast if it's buttered. 

Samantha Irby: No.

Jiayang Fan: I literally — I mean, I couldn't even fully wrap my mind around what she was saying because to me, like, peanut butter, butter, and bread are like close second to mayonnaise for me. 

[LAUGHING] 

Jiayang Fan: So I couldn't even fully visualize because I — what she was talking about because I have such an aversion to all three of those ingredients and it was making my stomach turn. Just ... 

Dan Pashman: Jiayang, you started off by joking about how you're basically like a human garbage disposal [JIAYANG FAN LAUGHS] and then you proceeded to tell us that you don't like bread, ground meat ...

Samantha Irby: Or peanut butter or butter.

Dan Pashman: Peanut butter, butter, mayonnaise, or dumplings.

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHING] I mean, those things taken together is — like, billions of people are eating those things right now. One of those things.

Samantha Irby: Yes.

Dan Pashman: But, I'll play devil's advocate here for a second, Sam.

Samantha Irby: Oh, here we go.

Dan Pashman: I think that maybe what she's maybe arguing is that there is toasted bread, which is bread that has been placed in a toaster. And then there is a dish called toast, which is toasted bread with butter on it. What do you say? 

Samantha Irby: I say no.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: All right, next caller.

Aaron: Hey Dan, this is Aaron calling from Brooklyn. Long time listener, second time caller. I love your show, but I'm calling in about a food related beef that I have with you and your reprehensible smear campaign against spaghetti. Don't get me wrong, I've had cascatelli and it's amazing, but an exquisitely crafted spaghetti marinara is one of the most magical plates of food a person can consume. In fact, I think spaghetti marinara with or without meatballs is a great barometer of the quality of an Italian restaurant. So Dan, really, it is deeply unfair of you to trivialize spaghetti, a staple of the global food scene for nearly a millennium, as saying it simply sucks. Although I am totally with you about angel hair. I mean, why would anyone eat that garbage?

Dan Pashman: All right, so when I invented my pasta shaped cascatelli, I said that spaghetti sucks. I can respond, but like, do either of you have an opinion on spaghetti you'd like to share? 

Samantha Irby: I love spaghetti. It's so good. I would choose spaghetti or like thick spaghetti over like a shaped pasta. Shaped pastas, to me, feel like that's for a child to eat. Although, I did eat cascatelli and it was delicious but I was like, “Am I seven?”.

Dan Pashman: What? [LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: No, I’m just kidding. So Dan, I think you're in the wrong here.

Dan Pashman: All right, Jiayang?

Jiayang Fan: I mean, again, another — I mean, unpopular hot take. I don't like noodles that much in general.

Samantha Irby: [LAUGHS] What you ... What is happening today?

[LAUGHING] 

Jiayang Fan: Um ... 

Dan Pashman: I thin ... 

Jiayang Fan: You have to see Dan's face right now. He's just so overwhelmed with emotion.

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: No dumplings? No noodles?

Dan Pashman: I mean, yeah. Jiayang’s just gonna be over here in the corner with her Sichuan beef jerky and nothing else ever.

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: Yeah, you serve her some noodles and she's like, nah, I'm gonna eat this little beef bite right at the bottom of my purse.

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS] Oh, man. 

Dan Pashman: Look, my point, I love all pasta. And I was in Italy last summer, ate some great spaghetti. And sure, spaghetti's fine. There's no — there's very few pasta shapes that I flat out don't like, but I — my point was that I think spaghetti is overrated and overutilized considering that there are other shapes that I think do all the things that you want pasta to do much better. So I stand by my statement. Sorry, Aaron. 

Samantha Irby: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: All right. Who's next?

Denali: Hello, Dan. This is Denali in Aspen, Colorado. My husband, Adam, and I have a dispute about the correct way to eat a pint of ice cream. He likes to obsessively keep the top of the pint flat as he eats it, so he scrapes little shavings of ice cream off the top with his spoon and always keeps it level. But I like to dig around the edges for where the ice cream is a little bit warmer and it gets softer and creamier, that perfect temperature. And so when I eat it, I eat around the edge and I leave sort of a mound in the middle. This is something that we need help settling, Dan. We are both firmly convinced that we have the right way to eat ice cream. So please help us.

Dan Pashman: Sam, I saw you gesticulating passionately during that message. What's your take?

Samantha Irby: Her husband is correct. 

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: If I ever get a divorce, one of the irreconcilable differences will be that whenever we share a pint of ice cream, I keep a neat level thing at the top. And then when my wife hands it back to me, there's always like a big chunk dug out. And I — it's obnoxious. it's the worst way to eat ice cream. Husband wins.

Dan Pashman: Well, I just want to clarify, I think there's a difference between tunneling [JIANYANG FAN LAUGHS] through the ice cream to specifically target large chunks of candy and other fillings versus simply going around the perimeter to get the slightly meltier ice cream, which is what I think Denali is describing in this message. 

Samantha Irby: She's still wrong. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS] Jiayang?

Jiayang Fan: Um, I — complete opposite of Sam on this. [SAMANTHA IRBY LAUGHS] I do not, even with a loved one, I do not want your spoon going back, flattening. To me that is gross, like it just contributes to additional saliva. Like because think about all the spooning that's required to like flatten the top.

Samantha Irby: Yeah. 

Jiayang Fan: I really need you to take the ice cream into your bowl. Saliva sharing, I mean, outside of physical intimacy, just no.

Dan Pashman: Well, look, I disagree with both of you.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: This is an issue in my household because, to me, ice cream just doesn't taste the same out of a bowl. 

Samantha Irby: Correct. 

Dan Pashman: Ice cream tastes better out of the pine container, I will die on that hill.

Samantha Irby: Yes. Agreed. 

Dan Pashman: My wife doesn't like me sticking my spoon in the pint container and eating straight out of it. And she's brainwashed our kids against me on this front. [JIAYANG FAN LAUGHS] They're like — you know, even though the two of them are like wild animals in every other food related respect, suddenly they get proper when it's time to eat ice cream.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: But I absolutely will go around the perimeter, because meltier ice cream has more flavor and aroma. And so you go around the perimeter, you get the meltier ice cream, then you use the back of the spoon to smush the little peak. You get that peak in the center, you then smush it and smear it down to mix it a little bit with the perimeter meltier ice cream to get an entire flat surface of melty ice cream. Remove that surface of meltier ice cream, then go back around the perimeter. So you're always eating the partially melted ice cream. 

Samantha Irby: Okay, I get that. 

Jiayang Fan: Ugh, no.

[LAUGHING] 

Jianyang: No, never. We're never going out for ice cream together.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: All right, we got time for one more.

Linda: Hi, this is Linda calling from Martha's Vineyard. My husband and I have a great division of labor in the kitchen. I cook and he cleans up. He likes to use the cooktop to let pots and pans dry and sometimes he uses the counter to spread out containers that need to dry. I, of course, would like to have everything put away. He doesn't want to have to dry some of these things and he doesn't see any reason why they can't just stay out there until they dry naturally. So, we would love to have your input on this issue. Thank you. Bye.

Dan Pashman: All right, full disclosure, that was my mom.

[LAUGHING]

Samantha Irby: Oh, so don't say anything messed up about your mom. Got it.

Dan Pashman: Say whatever you want, but I'm just letting you know. 

Jiayang Fan: I mean, I'm with your dad all the way on this. I mean, my kitchen has always looked like, you know, World War III. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jiayang Fan: And I think props to you for getting that thing clean in the first place. You get to choose when and how you put it away. I don't think that she has the right to micromanage the clean up process. Especially, if he's not micromanaging the cooking process.

Dan Pashman: Okay, Sam?

Samantha Irby: Correct. That is exactly what I was gonna say. He's doing his job. You don't get to tell him how to do it as long as the job is done. If dishes sit out overnight, nobody's seeing them. Like, the ghosts in the house might see them. But who are you worried about putting them away for? 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Samantha Irby: But yeah, it sounds like she's doing her job and trying to boss him on his job. And that is not a fair division of labor. You don't get to be the supervisor and an employee, so go dad 

[LAUGHS] 

Jiayang Fan: Wow, I don't think we've aligned so like, you know, so forcefully. I mean, I feel sorry for your mom. 

Samantha Irby: I glad we came together at the end. 

Dan Pashman: Look, we're throwing my dad a bone today. All right. There you go, Dad. You should retire. Go out on top. 

[LAUGHING] 

Samantha Irby: Dry the dishes however you want, dad. 

Jiayang Fan: I know.

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Jiayang Fan is a writer at The New Yorker. Thank you so much, Jiayang. 

Jiayang Fan: Thank you so much for having me. 

Dan Pashman: And Samantha Irby is an author of multiple books and TV shows, most notably her new book, Quietly Hostile. Thanks so much, Sam.

Samantha Irby: Thank you for having me. This was a dream. 

Dan Pashman: And Sam, I'll send you some more pasta. Jiayang, none for you.

Jiayang Fan: [LAUGHS] 

Samantha Irby: Please, do!

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, what happens when a whole new apple comes to market? The University of Washington invested decades and millions of dollars into creating the Cosmic Crisp, but does it live up to the hype? How's it selling these days? We'll find out next week.

Dan Pashman: While you’re waiting for that one, don’t miss our recent episodes about the Pickle King of Greenlawn, and the forager Jay Marion in Virginia.