Dan Pashman: Hey there, Dan here, with another Reheat for you. The election is coming up in just a few days. If you haven’t voted already, make sure that you do. And this week we’re bringing you a very special presidential Reheat on The Sporkful. I think you’re gonna really like this conversation. This is from 2018 with Sam Kass, who, for years, was the family chef for the Obamas. And he worked for the family before their time in the White House, went with them to the White House, and as you're gonna hear in this episode, Sam is more than just a great chef — he also cares deeply about nutrition and food policy and was really involved in those issues in the Obama White House. And as you can imagine, he's got some stories to tell. Now, if you have an older episode of The Sporkful that you’d like us to pull out of the deep freezer and reheat, submit your request! You can send us an email or voice memo at hello@sporkful.com. Make sure you include your first name, location, and the episode you want us to reheat and why. All right, here you go.

Dan Pashman: I think one thing that I would do if I were president — first day in office, first executive order, I would want a jar of kimchi buried in the White House lawn to ferment the old fashion way. 

Sam Kass: That would be the first thing you would do?

Dan Pashman: This is Sam Kass. He was the Obama family’s chef during their first six years in the White House. 

Sam Kass: Well, you could also just, like, walk out there and bury it — you know, like dig a hole or you have somebody else do it. You don't need an executive order to do that.

Dan Pashman: Okay, all right. I won't ... It won't be my ...

Sam Kass: Executive order is a little bit of an overkill for just a jar of kimchi ...

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: I got to tell you ... [LAUGHS] You want a signing ceremony for that, too?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]

Sam Kass: Okay .... You know, in fact, I could probably make that happen for you still.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHING] 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Today on The Sporkful, Sam Kass shares stories of his time as the Obama family’s chef. He tells us about cooking on Air Force One, smuggling special ingredients into the White House, and the pasta he made that might have won President Obama re-election. 

Sam Kass: I see how this podcast's gonna go. We're getting in the detail weeds of everything. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. [LAUGHS] That's right. 

Sam Kass: This could get me in trouble. Keep going. 

Dan Pashman: Why? What details could I ask about that would get you in trouble?

Sam Kass: You'll have to figure that out for yourself.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Stick around. 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people.

Dan Pashman: In 2007, when Barack Obama was running for president as a senator from Illinois, Sam Kass auditioned for a job as the Obamas’ personal chef. At that point, Sam had cooked in restaurants in the U.S., Europe, and New Zealand. He had come back to his native Chicago and opened a personal chef business.  

Dan Pashman: The day of his audition, Barack was on the road, so Sam cooked for Michelle, Sasha, and Malia. He figured all kids love pasta, right? So he made fresh fettuccine with peas, basil, lemon, and parmesan. It was a hit. But in his book, Sam says Barack was still uncomfortable with the idea of having a private chef, even if it was only for a few days a week. “It just wasn't who he was,” Sam writes. In the end, though, Sam got the job.  

Dan Pashman: When he was cooking, Sasha Obama, who was six or seven, would sometimes help him in the kitchen. Over time, Sam got close with the whole family. When the Obamas moved to Washington, Sam went with them, and he soon became a lot more than a personal chef. He was Michelle Obama’s right hand person on food policy issues. Sam was instrumental in the creation of the White House garden, and eventually became a Senior White House Advisor on nutrition.  

Dan Pashman: But he still had to get the first family’s dinner on the table every night at 6:30. That was an appointment that President Obama was famous for keeping, no matter what else he had going on. On the rare occasions the president couldn’t make it, Sam had to cook on the go. One time that meant making dinner in the kitchen on Air Force One.  

Sam Kass: It's very small. I mean, it's — you could fit maybe three people in it.

Dan Pashman: That sounds big for an airplane kitchen.

Sam Kass: Yeah. I mean, fit. I mean, like, literally fit.

Dan Pashman: Right, okay.

Sam Kass: Right?

Dan Pashman: Like physically fit.

Sam Kass: Physically fit.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Sam Kass: And it's got, like, kind of a very regular electric stove that has these, like, metal ... kind of a metal thing on top where the pots can fit in, so they don't slide off.

Dan Pashman: Oh, smart.

Sam Kass: So it's, like, a metal kind of covering with holes in it, and you sort of put the pot in and it keeps them in place.

Dan Pashman: Almost like a divot or a well?

Sam Kass: Yeah, it makes it kind of like a well. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And I guess it makes sense electric not— you're not gonna have open flame gas fires in the middle of an airplane.

Sam Kass: Yes.

Dan Pashman: Got it.

Sam Kass: Yes, especially with the president.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: And it has a couple ovens, a little sink, a fridge, I guess ... I only cooked once, so ...

Dan Pashman: And what did you cook?

Sam Kass: It's like what came to be known as "lucky pasta", which is a pesto pasta with mini penne, chicken, spinach, and some parmesan cheese.

Dan Pashman: And now, so ... This is one of the things that I think must be such a unique challenge of that job, which is that you left the White House, your guys are getting on an airplane to come to a debate, presidential debate in New York ...

Sam Kass: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And you don't — the President hasn't said anything to you about whether he wants to eat, what he wants to eat — you don't know.

Sam Kass: Yeah. You just try to have a few options and take your best guess. And this one was particularly unique in that sense because it was kind of early. He'd eaten a late breakfast. It was kind of early, he didn't even really know if he wanted to eat. So it was, like ... it was a little ...

Dan Pashman: And this is — that night was gonna be his second debate with Mitt Romney. The first debate was a disaster, he performed poorly by all accounts. He fell in the polls ...

Sam Kass: That's what the pundit says, but yes.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: He did fall in the polls …

Dan Pashman: Right, and so there was a pressure that, like, the whole staff was, like, trying to put on a happy face but, like, this is an important debate — we got to turn this ship around.

Sam Kass: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And your meal, this was gonna be the last thing he was gonna eat before taking the stage for this pivotal debate.

Sam Kass: I think that's right.

Dan Pashman: And he especially liked the "lucky pasta".

Sam Kass: He did react to this pasta in a way that he had never reacted to anything that I had prepared for him before since. He always liked the food, it was always, like, yeah, it's salad, like, you know, that's as much, kind of, enthusiasm that you were gonna get for something like this, like, you know, he had a lot of stuff he was dealing with ...

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: I mean, he was always like all love and positive and great, [Dan Pashman: Yeah, yeah.] but it was never effusive. Then I came back in to check on him and he just like, "You know when you get something to eat and you didn't know what you wanted and you get it and realize it's exactly what you wanted? That's this pasta! Like, this is perfect!" And I think it was really interesting. I mean, I think it was a tool to deflect a bunch of stress in the air. He... In these moments, what was interesting is like, he was always the guy that had to make everyone else, like, calm down. [LAUGHS] Even though he was the one who was about to go on stage, or what .... Whenever we were under pressure or something was going, he was the guy making everyone else feel good, as opposed to everybody trying to make him feel good, right? And so I think that's part of what it was, but Pete, the photographer, like, emailed me later, was like, "I don't know what you put in that pasta but [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] he's still talking about that pasta."

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] And how'd that make you feel?

Sam Kass: Uh, it was great. But the best part was he — so we did the debate, he had a great performance. He just sort of mopped the floor with Romney that night. And then I emailed him afterwards, like, you know, "That was great. You only got one left ...", and you know, he was not a big fan of debates, so and he just wrote back, "It was the pasta." So with that, "lucky pasta" became kind of legend, so I had to cook it for him the next debate and then I had to cook it for him on election day, so it became a thing.

Dan Pashman: It's often said that there's a big difference between campaigning and governing.

Sam Kass: Correct.

Dan Pashman: What's the difference between cooking for a candidate versus cooking for a person in office?

Sam Kass: I mean, on some level, you're cooking for a human being, so that part felt kind of the same, although, you're in the White House. It's harder to get ingredients in the White House than it is outside.

Dan Pashman: Why?

Sam Kass: Well, because I can't just go shopping because if you're recognized, somebody can tamper with the food and then you got a problem on your hands. So you're not in control of your ingredients as much. So it's actually harder to get that best quality stuff in the White House.

Dan Pashman: And how do you smuggle something in? You, like, just put it in David Axelrod’s briefcase, drop some truffles in there?

Sam Kass: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Sam Kass: Yeah, you know, they ... They're looking for things like guns. They're not looking for, like, olive oil.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: So, you know ... you know, that kind of stuff, I could get in.

Dan Pashman: Right. I remember ... I was thinking as we were getting ready to talk about an article written years ago when George W. Bush was president, that he had a guy, who was his assistant, who would follow him around on the campaign trail with a backpack full of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

Sam Kass: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: And I was like, "I gotta say, that sounds pretty awesome." Like I would love to [SAM KASS LAUGHS] just have a guy behind — like anytime, I could just be like, "Sandwich me!" [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: Yeah. Yeah, that was his body guy. There was a guy carrying around everything he needed.

Dan Pashman: But one of the things that I — so I reread that Times article about George W. Bush's assistant, the backpack peanut butter and jelly guy ...

Sam Kass: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And the other thing he always carried with him was Purrell. 

Sam Kass: Yes, a lot of Purell.

Dan Pashman: And President Obama said in his book that it was George W. Bush who introduced him to Purell ...

Sam Kass: Oh, interesting.

Dan Pashman: And this is a big thing among politicians is that a lot of them, because they shake so many hands [Sam Kass: Yeah.] and they're worried about germs and getting sick [Sam Kass: Yeah.] but they're also worried about appearances, because it doesn't look like you're a person of the people to go shake hands and then immediately run to your hand sanitizer.

Sam Kass: Right.

Dan Pashman: How do you feel about hand sanitizer being used just one before one of your meals is served?

Sam Kass: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Are you worried about that affecting the aromas of the food? Cause I don't like strongly scented hand sanitizer on my hands before I eat.

Sam Kass: [LAUGHS] Uhh, it's definitely a question I've never been asked before.

Dan Pashman: All right, good. [LAUGHS] That's one of the things we aspire to.

Sam Kass: Yes. So far, you're doing pretty well.

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: Uh, well, it doesn't have a super strong scent once it — you know, after 30 seconds, right?

Dan Pashman: Mm-hmm.

Sam Kass: As long as it's not scented. And you know, I would much prefer him not get sick than have a slight scent in the air. So yes, I'm all for Purell. I mean, you got to imagine, they're shaking, like, thousands of hands. 

Dan Pashman: Right.

Sam Kass: You know, after that many hands, you need to clean your hands.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: You're like, please god, clean your hands.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] Once in a while, I’ve daydreamed, Sam, about, like, if I was the president, how would my eating change? Like If I had [SAM KASS LAUGHS] Sam Kass living in the White House with me, like how would my eating change?

Sam Kass: And so what did you come up with?

Dan Pashman: Well, one of the first questions I wonder about is: Would I eat more or less? Because on one hand, I would be very busy. When I get very busy with work, I do sometimes — I will eat less when I'm working versus when I'm, like, bumming around the house, you know? But I've never been one of those people who's like, "I'm so busy, I forgot to eat lunch."

Sam Kass: Right.

Dan Pashman: I've never said those words.

Sam Kass: Right.

Dan Pashman: So I'm inclined to say that I would probably eat less. I bet I would lose weight if I became president cause I would eat less. But I would also ... I think I might feel awkward about — maybe I would learn to overcome it, but I think I would feel awkward about asking — about, like, having a chef, being like, "This is what I would want you to cook for tonight." You know, I would just feel like an odd feeling, but ...

Sam Kass: Well, that never happened. We cooked whatever we wanted. 

Dan Pashman: Right.

Sam Kass: I cooked whatever I wanted. And you lose weight because you'd be super stressed all the time. 

Dan Pashman: Right.

Sam Kass: I mean, you seem like a pretty, you know, solid guy but [Dan Pashman: Thanks.] probably not quite as solid as President Obama, so you know, the stress weighs on people in there. It may have weighed on him, but he was able to manage it pretty well.

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

Sam Kass: He also, like, worked out a couple times a day. So yeah, the stress is what I think would take the pounds off [Dan Pashman: Okay.] more than anything else. And I think you'd get over really fast having a chef cook you things, whatever you wanted.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Right. 

Sam Kass: You'd get used to that real quick.

Dan Pashman: How did cooking in the White House affect the way that you cook at home now that you're not here anymore?

Sam Kass: Huh? So I would say that my cooking — over time, it became less talented ... 

[LAUGHING]

Sam Kass: But much faster.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: I became very, very fast. Because I'd be in these — you know, our days were crazy and I'd be in these really intense meetings trying to figure out a really big problem, but then I'd realize it's, like, 5:30 ... 5:35 ... 5:40 ... and I'd have, like, 20 minutes to get dinner ready and upstairs. Getting dinner on the table fast is gonna serve me well the rest of my life.

Dan Pashman: Are you familiar with the term "impostor syndrome"

Sam Kass: No.

Dan Pashman: It's basically this idea that a lot of people experience, especially when starting a new job.

Sam Kass: Okay.

Dan Pashman: That they tend to feel like, I don't deserve this job.

Sam Kass: Oh.

Dan Pashman: I'm an imposter ...

Sam Kass: Totally.

Dan Pashman: Did you ever have that moment in the White House?

Sam Kass: This may make me seem like a jerk, but honestly, I had the opposite because I was the chef doing policy and nobody thought I should be there, but actually, I knew I should be there.

Dan Pashman: Why?

Sam Kass: Because one, I'd done my homework and done my work, and just on a, like, knowledge basis, but I also knew food. Like, most policymakers don't know anything, like, in real life about whatever it is they're regulating. [LAUGHS] You know? So I had just as much of a legitimate seat at that table as I thought anybody else did. But because of who they perceived me to be, just some guy who knew how to cut carrots, they thought I was some imposter. So a lot of my fight internally was to sort of shed the moniker of chef and try to pretend like I wasn't one really. There were times where I had imposter syndrome on the chef's side though. Where, like, I would, you know, be cooking at some fancy thing with a bunch of, like really great — like, I'm a good cook. I'm a very good cook, but I'm not, like, one of the greats. I'm not like Dan Barber or Daniel Boulud or any of these guys, right? There are times where people would assume that I was like on a chef level, and I'd know, like, I'm not — I can't throw down like that. That's where I felt the imposter a little bit.

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Coming up, ahead of Election Day next week, we’ll talk more about the part of Sam’s work where he didn't feel like an impostor. When he traded his chef’s coat for a suit and tie, left the kitchen for Capitol Hill, and fought to improve nutrition standards for kids. This will include the saga of … 

Sam Kass: The potatoes ... 

Dan Pashman: Stick around. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: I'm Dan Pashman and I'm just a regular authentic American, like you. I eat my cheeseburgers with the cheese on the bottom, my pizza slices folded inside out, and my Oreos in a way that's so convoluted I can't explain it without pictures. I believe sparkling water isn't water. I believe a hotdog is a sandwich. And when I drop a porkchop on the ground, I pick it up and eat it ... or serve it to you, so the gravel in every bite can show you just how authentic I am. This November, when you go to the polls, vote for me ... cause I'm just like you. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Paid for by the picked a peck of pickled peppers pack. 

MUSIC

 

+++BREAK+++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: And now a moment from our partner, American Express. 

Dan Pashman: I don't have enough time to go into full detail on all the things I love about my AmEx Gold Cards. And yes, it is cards, plural. I have a personal AmEx Gold Card and a Business AmEx Gold Card. But today, I'm gonna talk to you about my personal AmEx Gold Card. What I love about my personal Gold Card is that I get 4 times points at restaurants globally on up to $50,000 annually. When I travel, I rack up more membership rewards points that I can then use to take my family on a trip. Also, I love AmEx customer service. When I need support with my card, they're there to help. And look, if you're an eater like me, the AmEx Gold Card is the way to go. Card holders can enroll and earn up to $120 back in statement credits after paying at participating partners up to 10 bucks each month. And you can get up to $100 back annually after you pay with the American Express Gold Card to dine at U.S. Resy restaurants, or make other Resy purchases. Honestly, with my AmEx Gold card, I just feel like a V.I.P. and I always feel like I'm racking up points. AmEx Gold can help elevate your dining experiences, allowing you to check out new restaurants, connect with your family and friends, and explore exciting flavors all while earning rewards points. That is the powerful backing of American Express. For terms and to learn more, visit AmericanExpress.com/withAmEx. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat, I’m Dan Pashman. Do you ever, like, go to our show page in your podcasting app, and you're scrolling back and you're, "Oh, that seems like a good episode. Why ... How did I miss that?" Well, you missed it because you're probably not following our show in your podcasting app and it's really important that you do. So please, you can do this right now, go to our showpage in your podcasting app of choice, if it's Apple Podcast or Spotify, you click "follow", other apps, maybe it's a plus sign, or a heart, or a favorite, or the word "subscribe", whatever it is in your app, it's really important that you click it, that way you won't miss great episodes. It's super quick and easy, you can do it right now. Thank you so much. Now back to this week's Reheat. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I'm Dan Pashman. Hope you enjoyed that ad for my still nascent presidential campaign that we played going to break. That actually was in an episode we did a couple years all about eating on the campaign trail. I thought we'd bring it back for this episode. You know, we like to keep you on your toes. Hey, are you signed up to receive our email mailing list, cause if not, you probably should be. Here's how it works. We drop you a line once a week to say hello, and to tell you what we’re eating, and reading. In fact, my anecdotal research suggests that reading our newsletter each week will make you 4% smarter and 7.2% hungrier. Sign up now at sporkful.com/newsletter. Thanks. 

Dan Pashman: Now, let’s get back to my conversation with Sam Kass. As I said, over his time working with the Obamas, he went from being the family’s chef to a Senior White House Advisor on nutrition. He was one of Michelle Obama’s top lieutenants on food policy, and in particular on one of her biggest priorities — school lunches.

Dan Pashman: But improving the nutrition standards for the food kids get in school was a huge battle. Because there are big companies and powerful lobbies that make a lot of money off the status quo. For example: 

Sam Kass: The number one vegetable we eat are potatoes. We grow them in many states, so that means that the potato lobby — yes, it is a very powerful, loud lobby, aggressive lobby — so they worked to force french fries into school lunch as a vegetable, five days a week. We were trying to put some restriction on how often you could serve the kids french fries, but they got Congress to change that. We were able to counter and increase the amount of vegetables that had to be served. So in the end, kids are still doing okay. 

 Dan Pashman: So you weren’t able to reduce the number of french fries but you were able to increase the number of other vegetables?

Sam Kass: Correct. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: What did you learn from the experience of going up against the potato lobby?

Sam Kass: Uh, you win some, you lose some.

[LAUGHING]

Sam Kass: You know, and overall we mostly won but you know, there was — the pizza guys were able to get — they lobbied for the tomato sauce in the pizza to count as a vegetable. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Right.

Sam Kass: So ...

Dan Pashman: That's like the most famous example of ridiculous sort of …

Sam Kass: Well, the most famous was ketchup.

Dan Pashman: Oh, right, right.

Sam Kass: That was in Reagan, but they did it again — the frozen food institute, who represents, basically, the pizza makers, they — yeah, so pizza counted as a vegetable too, which is just, like, a joke. It's a laughing stock.

Dan Pashman: We have this idea that the word lobbyist, as, like, these are "bad people".

Sam Kass: Uh-huh.

Dan Pashman: Were there lobbyists you worked with who were representing big money interests who you felt were also helping to do good for the country?

Sam Kass: Oh, absolutely.

Dan Pashman: Is there one or two examples you could give me of a company or a lobby that you felt like ...

Sam Kass: Sure, like Mars. Nobody would — people would be surprised by this, but Mars the candy company was always an incredibly progressive company on policy. They pushed things that were not in their obvious best interest. PepsiCo was also, in policy, very good. Walmart was, I got to say, almost to a T, like, argued for and pushed for, supported really policy positions.

Dan Pashman: So why would a company — like, if they want to do the right thing, what is clearly in the benefit of the country, why do they need regulations to do that? Why don't they — why can't they just do it?

Sam Kass: Well, they can do it and a lot of them did do it. But if your competitors — so let's say, you want to take out sodium out of, like, some of your products? And you reduce the sodium — in fact, this happened to Campbell's — like you reduce the sodium too much and your competitor keeps their sodium the same, you're at a competitive disadvantage because it's perceived to taste less good than the one, you know, people's palates are trained. So you want to set up these sorts of standards that allow people to do it collectively.

Dan Pashman: You did an event with Mrs. Obama a little over a year ago. It was a public health summit in D.C.

Sam Kass: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: And she made some comments that really stuck with me. And I just want to play one clip for you and get your take on it.

CLIP (MICHELLE OBAMA): And this is where you really have to look at motives. [LAUGHS] You know? I mean, you have to stop and think why don't you want our kids to have good food at school? What is wrong with you?

Sam Kass: [LAUGHS]

[AUDIENCE APPLAUDS]

CLIP (MICHELLE OBAMA): And why is that a partisan issue? Why would that be political? You know? Now, that's up to moms. I want to talk to — moms, think about this. I don't care what state you live in. Take me out of the equation. Like me. Don't me. But think about why someone is okay with your kids eating crap? Why would you celebrate that? Why would you sit idly and be okay with that? Cause here's the secret, if somebody is doing that, they don't care about your kid.

Dan Pashman: And those comments were soon after the Trump administration had rolled back some of the changes that you guys had instituted. You chuckled in the middle of that clip. What made you chuckle?

Sam Kass: [LAUGHS] Cause she was on fire that day.

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

[LAUGHING]

Sam Kass: And when she's on fire, look out. You don't want to — I wouldn't want to be on the other side of her. Thank god, I've never been. But she's also right. Like what is wrong with you people? Like, you know, I think so much of our politics has just become so tribal that facts and reason are being overcome by tribe, and that's a scary thing. It's not how the democracy was intended to function and you can get some really skewed outcomes. There's some basic things, like general health for young people that is something we should all be working toward.

Dan Pashman: And what especially struck me about that clip is she says, "We have to look at their motives." So when politicians are okay with our kids eating crap ...

Sam Kass: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: What are their motives? Like you've been in some of these rooms. You have raised your voice and gotten frustrated with some of these people. Like, help me understand, cause look, I'm not totally naive to the world of politics. I understand that every politician wants to get re-elected and they have constituents and they have lobbyists and they need to raise money for their campaigns and their balancing these concerns ...

Sam Kass: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: But at a certain point, it's hard for me to understand what's going through some of their heads.

Sam Kass: Well, I mean, that's a part of it. I mean, the fact that some people who are pushing that kind of stuff come from districts that have, say, a giant company that's producing some of the food that now no longer can be served in schools. And they don't have a lot of money and they're under a lot of pressure, so that's a big part of it.

Dan Pashman: But when you're in that situation, talking to a politician in that position, do you think that there is some part of them that they just can't acknowledge to you that knows that you're right, but they just have to do this to [Sam Kass: Of course.] protect themselves?

Sam Kass: Oh yeah, totally. I think that to a certain extent, but I think also, there's just a difference of opinion. There's a big part of Washington that believes, and a country that believes that the government shouldn't be doing any of this stuff, like leave it to the states or let the school decide what they want to serve. Like who are you to tell the school that they should be serving this food and not that food? Or have this amount of salt and not that amount of salt? But like, people don't — aren't engaged. If you want a senator or congressman to take action on these issues, you need to ask them what they think, what their policies are. You need to call them, you need to meet with them, and you need to vote based on whatever it is they say they support and whether they follow through on that. And until we start voting on health, you're only gonna get so much action and results from Washington. And that's how the system was set up. It should be that way and you're gonna have to get politically engaged if you want your politicians to reflect your will.

Dan Pashman: So Sam, we touched on some politics. I want to get very deeply political now.

Sam Kass: Okay.

Dan Pashman: This is really the third rail. [SAM KASS LAUGHS] All right? You're a Chicago native ...

Sam Kass: White Sox — keep going.

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS] It's rare that people on opposite ends of our political spectrum come together these days, as you well know.

Sam Kass: Yes.

Dan Pashman: But the now departed Justice Scalia and John Stewart, formerly of The Daily Show, [Sam Kass: Yes.] agree on something. Quote, Justice Scalia, on Chicago deep dish pizza: "It's very tasty but it's not pizza ..."

Sam Kass: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: "It shouldn't be called pizza. It should be called a tomato pie." John Stewart: "Deep dish pizza is not only not better than New York pizza, it's not pizza. It's a bleeping casserole. It's tomato soup in a bread bowl ..."

Sam Kass: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: "It's an above ground marinara swimming pool for rats."

Sam Kass: [LAUGHS] So ...

Dan Pashman: Now, I will add I lived in Chicago for three years ...

Sam Kass: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: I love Chicago and I love Chicago deep dish pizza, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but you know, when you see two people on opposite ends of the political spectrum agreeing that Chicago pizza is [Sam Kass: Well ...] not pizza, how do you respond?

Sam Kass: Justice Scalia was wrong about just about everything he ever said.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: I would be worried if Justice Scalia liked deep dish pizza — like, it would make me question everything. [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHING] Cause that dude, you know, may he rest in peace, you know, was just a really devastating impact on this country, in my opinion. Everybody knows my politics. Now John Stewart, on the other hand, it's a little harder one to deal with. You know, maybe he just hasn't had a good one? I don't know. We'll have to see. It's a very New York pride thing. I think maybe New Yorkers are maybe insecure about this because they get very aggressive around Chicago deep dish pizza. They, like, are super offended by it. But it's really like, well, if you're so confident in your pizza, like why are you worrying about all that? But the reality is, like, pizza's been updated but the classic New York slice, like they're talking about, is not that good at all. It's just, like, oily, kind of soggy — it's just not that good. You know, maybe that's where the insecurity comes from? I actually think, not only is Chicago deep dish better, but like Chicago regular thin crust is better than New York.

Dan Pashman: Even cutting that weird like ...

Sam Kass: In the triangles.

Dan Pashman: Checkerboard way?

Sam Kass: Yeah, triangle is great! It's, like, easy to eat. You don't have to, like, fold it half, let the grease running all over yourself, your hands are covered in grease. It's disgusting.

Dan Pashman: I feel like after this we should go out for a slice of pizza.

Sam Kass: Let's do it. I'm fine.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Sam Kass: Let's fly to Chicago.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. [LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: That’s Sam Kass. After leaving the White House Sam founded an organization called Trove. It works with companies that want to transform health and the planet through food. And he founded American Chef Corps, which works to promote diplomacy through culinary initiatives. Sam’s new cookbook is Eat a Little Better: Great Flavor, Good Health, Better World. It’s available wherever books are sold.

Dan Pashman: One more note on that conversation with Sam Kass, we relayed his comment about the potato lobby to the National Potato Council and their C.E.O. John Keeling responded with this comment: USDA meal requirements set nutritional standards that allow school food service professionals to develop menus that include all vegetables, including potatoes, in a wide variety of forms. By meeting these USDA standards, the school food service professionals are providing children with nutritious and delicious meals. 

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Dan Pashman: And hey, did you know that you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? Then there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXM.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. 

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Dan Pashman: Thank you to our presenting sponsor American Express. AmEx Gold makes your dining experiences more rewarding so you can discover more, connect more, and experience more dining moments. Elevate every meal with the benefits that come with American Express Gold. For terms and to learn more, visit AmericanExpress.com/withamex.