Dan Pashman: Hey everyone, Dan here with another Sporkful Reheat for you. This one needs just a little bit of setup because this coming Monday, January 13th, for our regular release, we are dropping The Sporkful 15th Anniversary Spectacular Episode. I can't wait for you to hear it. We will be celebrating 15 years as a podcast.

For that episode, I'll talk with my wife Janie and reminisce about the early days of the show. I'll tell you the whole story of the creation and the evolution of the show, and I will share clips of some of my very favorite moments in Sporkful history. In addition to that, in honor of our 15th anniversary for our Friday Reheats this month, we are pulling especially old episodes out of the darkest recesses of the deep freezer.

So today we are playing our very first Sporkful episode ever. Yes, this is episode number one from back in 2010. And then because these episodes back, they were very short, we're going to give you a second one right here in this release. That will be our 19th ever episode, also from 2010. That one's a debate about sandwich science with former radio lab co-host Robert Krulwich.

Now, way back in the early days of this pork full, I had a co-host, my friend, Mark Garrison, who I had worked with at NPR. He did the show with me, so you'll hear him in these episodes. And I think as you'll hear, this show is very different in the very early days. So I hope you'll enjoy seeing how the show has changed over time.

Now, as always, if there's an episode of The Sporkful you'd like us to pull out of the deep freezer, let me know. Send us an email or voice memo to hello@sporkful.com. Don't forget to include your first name, location, which episode you'd like us to reheat, and why. Thanks so much. Stay tuned for the 15th anniversary spectacular this Monday. And in the meantime, enjoy this trip down memory lane.

Announcer: This is the Sporkful.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is the Sporkful where sacred cows get grilled. I'm Dan Pashman, along with my friend Mark Garrison.

Mark Garrison: Hello, Dan.

Dan Pashman: We're about to challenge your assumptions about consumption and drop a Sporkful of knowledge on you because we're obsessively compulsive about eating more awesomely, and because if history has taught us anything, it's that the hosts of food shows need a lot of catchphrases.

Mark Garrison, how are you, sir?

Mark Garrison: I'm doing good. I had some leftover pumpkin lasagna before I came here. It was good and delicious, which is awesome. The sad part is it was the last of the tray that my girlfriend made, and so there will be no more of it anytime soon, so.

Dan Pashman: R. I. P. pumpkin lasagna.

Mark Garrison: Goodbye. Thank you.

Dan Pashman: Before we get started, we want to remind everyone out there that the conversation we're about to have continues online all week long. Check out thesporkful. com to find our blog, Twitter stream, Facebook fan page, email address, the whole nine yards. You can basically tap directly into our brains and stomachs, if you dare, by going to thesporkful.com.

Mark Garrison: That's right. Now, I want to bring up something before we get into our discussion of the topic of the day. Just something, I was at a concert recently. Free food was on offer. And, uh, you know, again, when there's free food, you want to maximize your eating because you may eat enough of it to fill one meal or even two meals, maximizing the money you save.

And so in this case we had, we had hot dogs and tofu dogs. The buns were not toasted. They were not tasty. So the key here was to double or even triple stack the hot dogs if you could. So the bun becomes strictly a, you know, portability device. We, you know, minimize the mediocre bread exposure, maximize dog high protein consumption.

First round, I get the hot dogs. They are, texture's good. They had a nice snap to them, but the flavor was pretty bland. Second round, I go veggie. Good flavor, but dry, bad texture, what you would expect out of a veggie dog. So in round three I asked for a bun stuffed with a meat and veggie dog together. Now I was actually, I was afraid there would be some hostility.

Uh, you know, vegetarians, they don't like meat to be mixed with their, their vegetarian, vegan in this case, creations. But I actually got this kind of like look of awe and respect from the two dog servers. No one had done this all day.

Dan Pashman: Well, Mark, you should not be shy about those kinds of things because this is the show where sacred cows get grilled.

Mark Garrison: Definitely.

Dan Pashman: So, I mean, if we're going to live that way, let's live that way. And I think what you've done here is really, makes a statement about what this podcast is all about, because we're always looking for new and better ways to eat. And you found one, it sounds like.

Mark Garrison: No, it worked, because you got the, uh, because the, the veggie, veggie dog had really this good, earthy flavor, but the texture was all wrong, but then when you bit into the, you know, your, your, your teeth are slicing through the veggie part, you're getting that flavor, but then you actually hit the meat dog and you get this nice snap and the good texture and the fattiness. It was perfect. I highly recommend it.

Dan Pashman: I just want the audience to know that just at that moment where you were talking about your teeth slicing through the meat, your eyes were closed as if they were, like, rolling back in your head. You were definitely reliving a bite just there as you were saying that.

Mark Garrison: And the mic was in my mouth. We have to call an engineer to get this thing repaired.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, we'll clean that off before the next show comes in here. Okay. Well, let's move it right along. Let's jump into it. Today's topic for rumination and mastication is Grilled cheese. And I want to begin this conversation where any conversation about a sandwich should begin, which is with the bread.

Now, a couple of things I want to start off saying, Mark. First of all, I mean, there's a lot of different kinds of bread you can use in a grilled cheese, and still have a great grilled cheese.

Mark Garrison: Sure.

Dan Pashman: There's more than one kind. Obviously, it has to be a slice from a loaf. You can't take, uh, you can't take, let's say, a baguette and slice it the long way, or even a ciabatta roll and slice it the long way.

Then you have a different kind of sandwich. Now, I would say that the normal slice thickness on a typical loaf of white bread or rye bread or whatever is adequate. It can be okay. But if you want an ideal grilled cheese, you want your bread a little thicker. I would say about a half an inch thick per slice.

Mark Garrison: I, I think that's fine if you want to go a little bit thicker, but the problem is you, you, part of the joy in the grilled cheese is kind of the, the, the sponge factor of the, uh, of the bread. And if it gets too thick, you're going to lose the ability to have kind of that butter like coursing through the whole thing.

I think if it gets too thick, you're, you're, you're getting away from the essence of the grilled cheese, which is a, a cheese and grease delivery device.

Dan Pashman: I think, I think that's right. There is such thing as too thick, but I think if you're at about a half an inch of thickness, I actually got out a ruler before we started taping this and looked at how big is a half an inch, if that looks right to me.

And I said, half an inch, that looks right. Because here's what I want to say is that when a grilled cheese gets really, really amazing to me is when you have a nice, fresh, pretty dense bread, you've buttered the outside. So the outside gets very crispy. The inside, obviously, is cheesy, melty, gooey goodness.

Mark Garrison: Yes.

Dan Pashman: But, if you can have a very ever so slight and thin but perceptible layer in the bread, that is, fluffy bread. That separates the buttery, crispy butteriness and the cheesy goodness, that little, tiny, tiny bit of bread fluff is magic.

Mark Garrison: Okay. All right. I, I got, I haven't, I haven't given a lot of thought to that.

The, the, the non outside. The non middle. But that, uh, that, that one strata, uh, and, and you've, you've, this is actually expanding my mind because that, that is, that's an important place to go.

MUSIC

Mark Garrison: Now let's talk cheese. Like, what's going, what's going between the slices in your world?

Dan Pashman: Well, again, personal taste is a big factor here, um, but I think, first of all, you need a cheese that's high in fat, so that it's gonna melt, and get melty and gooey. I go with a high quality American cheese, like, not Kraft Singles, I like a Land O'Lakes American slice at the deli counter.

That stuff is money and it goes with everything. What about you?

Mark Garrison: I mean, the, uh, the, the American cheese can be good, the cheddar cheese can be good, um, I do, I actually, I like some of the Swiss cheese and or Gruyere or something like that, but I like to have something that's going to bring, uh, I like to mix, first of all, but I want to have one of the, the, you know, traditional melting cheeses.

And then add something else to bring a little bit of funkiness. So, so that might be something blue, not a lot of it because blue cheese is not like a really good melting cheese. But if I can put something in there that will make it smell funky and more flavorful. This, by the way, actually reminds me of just how veganism this is this total bankrupt ideology because there is no meltable cheese.

You know one has ever had cause there's some really great vegan junk food and like that, but they're, the vegan science has not created. Anything that substitutes for a multiple cheese because it's soy cheese like mac and cheese like that. It's not cheese. It's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible

Dan Pashman: It's the worst and I mean any life philosophy that involves not eating real grilled cheese sandwiches

Mark Garrison: Problematic.

Okay, so we've talked about what can go into the grilled cheese But let's talk about how we're gonna actually do it and for me For me, I know there's all, you know, all these different other technologies you can use like that, but for me, I really just want to have a pan and some butter, and just make it in the pan and flip it and grill it and then serve it.

Dan Pashman: I think that's absolutely right. And you know, Mark, I am a lover of words, like yourself.

Mark Garrison: Okay.

Dan Pashman: And the food we're discussing here is grilled cheese. If you don't grill it, it's not a grilled cheese. We're talking grill, not like a barbecue grill. In a pan or in a diner style grill.

Mark Garrison: In a skillet, yeah.

Dan Pashman: If you put it in a toaster, bread and cheese melted in a toaster, that's not a bad food. But that is a toasted cheese sandwich.

Mark Garrison: Yes. Agreed.

Dan Pashman: Don't press the sandwich, because you want those layers, as I discussed earlier. You press the sandwich, it's gonna get flat and hard. You want a little bit of fluff.

Now what are your thoughts, Mark, on spreadable butter, margarine versus regular butter? I mean, I mean Is there any leeway there for you?

Mark Garrison: It's butter.It's butter. I mean, cause again, like I, butter is meant to be delicious and, and not healthy. So, so like the idea of like introducing margarine or something else like that, I want just like a, a stick of butter that ideally I've had, I've had a little bit of time that I could, could have left it out and let it get to room temperature from the fridge where it's nice and soft and spreadable.

And it just, butter from a stick and unsalted ideally because I want to, you know, I want to control the salt that I'm putting in there like that on each side of the bread, put on onto the skillet and and grill the cheese.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So what about fillings? At what point does it stop becoming a grilled cheese and start becoming a panini? Where's the dividing line? I'm going to go ahead and say that you can put bacon, inside your grilled cheese, and it's still a grilled cheese, because bacon, to me, is an accoutrement. You can add it in, that, yes, that was a real French accent.

Mark Garrison: Wait, I want that in English, actually.

Dan Pashman: It's an accoutrement. Okay. That's English. Um, so, you put the bacon in there, bacon can be added to a million things, and should be, uh, and it can be added to grilled cheese to add flavor, but any other meat, any other meat that can be an entree meat on its own, Which to me, bacon is not, makes it a panini sandwich.

You can add in tomatoes as well, one vegetable is okay. As soon as you add in a second vegetable, it's a panini sandwich at that point, and you've lost the grilled cheese.

Mark Garrison: Okay, I'm following all of your complicated logic. You have gone beyond what is a real grilled cheese. Because the grilled cheese, the, the essence and the beauty of it is its simplicity.

We're taking bread, butter, cheese and grilling it, but adding these other ingredients, it's, it's no longer a grilled cheese. Once you've done this, you've gone away, you've gone to a panini or a melt or a press sandwich or whatever, but it's still going to be good. It's going to taste good, but you, you, you've left the category behind.

Dan Pashman: I don't think that's fair.

Mark Garrison: That, that, that can't even be mentioned on this program. This is a grilled cheese program. And you have, you have broken up, you could broken away

Dan Pashman: No, no, Mark, you can add things to a food and it's still the essential food. The question is, when does it become a different food?

Mark Garrison: Grilled cheese. The name itself, it points you in the direction of what you should do. It's saying, cheese is the star. And how you, cause again, within cheese, there's lots of different types of cheeses, there are different types of breads. You have, you have a lot of options here, and I think like, think of it as kind of like creative restraint. If you add all this stuff to the, to the grilled cheese, that's not cheese, bread, and butter.

Dan Pashman: I'm not talking about adding all this stuff. I'm talking about, I agree that if you add quote unquote all this stuff, you’re crossing a line. But I think a slight addition, for instance, I would say if you put eggs in there, you've crossed the line.

Mark Garrison: But how is eggs is more crossing the line?

Dan Pashman: Because eggs is an entree on its own. Turkey is an entree on its own. You put turkey in there, you've crossed the line. But bacon is an accompaniment.

Mark Garrison: I, I don't, I don't agree, because I think bacon can, can be categorized as a meal and eaten as such. And, and some of these other things you're talking about are not.

Dan Pashman: You would like sit down for lunch and just have a plate of bacon and nothing else. Well, all right, that's it. I've done that. You haven't done that.

Mark Garrison: What are you talking about? I'm sorry.

Dan Pashman: That was halfway out of my mouth and I was like, this is a bad point. I'm losing this argument.

Mark Garrison: You're already there. Um, okay. So on that again, so I will give you that, that deliciousness can happen by doing the things you've done, but, but I think you have walked up to the challenge of, of making grilled cheese great and better and just kind of given up and saying, I'm going to add some bacon or veggies.

Dan Pashman: You think it's cheating.

Mark Garrison: I think you've gone beyond the true essence of grilled cheese. And I think you've, you've, uh, you're letting yourself down. You're not living up, not only you're not living up to grilled cheese, you're not living up to Dan. Like, you know, your abilities to, and your passion about making something better. It’s an easier road.

Dan Pashman: Well, I appreciate you holding me to such a high standard. One more question on that point. I'll let you address this, Mark. We got a comment on the Facebook fan page, which, by the way, you can find by going to thesporkful.com. Uh, one of our fans, Mike, saw what we were going to be discussing, and he asked, What if the meat is embedded in the cheese?

He has a block of cheddar cheese with pepperoni in the cheese. If he makes a grilled cheese using that cheese, is it still a grilled cheese?

Mark Garrison: I'll allow it. Um, especially, especially this again, this is cheese. Cause you know, cheese is not like a one ingredient thing. It's got rennet and milk and this and that. So I'll allow that, you know, this, this may be Mike on, on the, uh, on, uh, how did Mike connect with this?

Dan Pashman: We are so plugged in. You've already lost track in the first podcast. He's on the Facebook fan page.

Mark Garrison: Okay, alright. I knew Mike came in here from somewhere like that. But I think, like, Mike what Mike said may have been kind of the bridge of peace between us.

That I can accept what you're making and possibly, you know, think of it as a category of cheese like that. Or actually, Mike may have just revealed that I have holes in my logic, and I haven't really thought through this position. But in any case, thank you Mike, and yes, grill away.

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Dan Pashman: One more topic I want to cover here is dipping a grilled cheese into soup. Now, I'll go on record right now, I'm a little biased, because the most traditional one is tomato soup.

Mark Garrison: Tomato soup, yeah.

Dan Pashman: I'm not a fan of tomato soup in general, so much. I don't like tomato soup or tomato juice. So, to me that's not so exciting, but I mean, you're dipping one thing into another, so it doesn't corrupt the grilled cheese.

If it makes you happy, it's fine with me. But I think that a lot, uh, a lot more experimentation should be done with this, with different kinds of cheese and different kinds of soup, beyond the, the standard tomato soup. For instance, I would love to see a grilled cheese with, uh, with your Gruyere. With a nice crusty bread, you know, you have a sharp cheese and then you dip it into something that's sort of a creamy soup, like a Gruyere grilled cheese.

Mark Garrison: I was actually going to ask, like, yeah,

Dan Pashman: like a cream of mushroom or something like that. Yes, cream of mushroom.

Mark Garrison: I think that would be good. Now the other thing you can do if you really want to go down the road of dipping, I would say, like, take a grilled cheese sandwich and dip it into fondue. And then your head would just totally explode.

I think that would be great.

Dan Pashman: At that point, that's like crossing the streams. The universe folds in upon itself and you explode and stop eating.

Mark Garrison: Enjoy.

Dan Pashman: Well, that just about does it for today's podcast. You've heard what we think, now we want to hear from you. Head over to thesporkful.com. That's thesporkful.com. There are various ways to connect with the show. So many that Mark just lost track. Uh, share your opinions, your ideas, and your deepest, darkest food related obsessions.

MUSIC

Mark Garrison: We've also got a blog and discussion forum called The Sporkful Test Kitchen, where we can all gather to discuss and debate these issues, share new concepts in the field of food

Dan Pashman: That's right, and remember, this is all in pursuit of a noble cause, people. Someday, when our ranks are large enough, we're gonna band together to found Sporkful University. Motto, ruminate, masticate, promulgate. So go to thesporkful.com to get involved with that vital mission.

Mark Garrison: Till next time, I'm Mark Garrison.

Dan Pashman:  And I'm Dan Pashman, reminding you to eat more, eat better. And eat more better.

Announcer: Time to cook up some advertisements.

+++BREAK+++

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to another Sporkful reheat. I'm Dan Pashman, and I have a very big, exciting announcement for you. This past November, I took a group of Sporkful fans and some others on a special trip across Italy to eat pasta, to retrace many of the steps I took on my own research trip for my cookbook. And we had so much fun.

And ate so, so well. We ate spaghetti all’asassina in Bari. We took a cooking class with Silvestro Silvestori in Lecce. We ate with Katie Parla in Rome. And the folks at Culinary Backstreets who organized the tour, they added some stops that I didn't even know about that were new to me, that were incredibly delicious and also fascinating.

Fresh focaccia on the Adriatic orchiette rolled by hand. The list goes on. Point is, it was so great, we're doing it again. This November, we just opened up spots. It's a small group, so space is limited. Bottom line, come eat pasta with me in Italy. For all the details, go to culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful.

Now, we're going to be reheating our 19th ever episode of The Sporkful. From way back in 2010, this is a conversation about sandwich science with Robert Krulwich. At the time, Robert was the co host of the podcast Radiolab. He's since retired from that role and has been a collaborator on a variety of documentaries. But back in 2010, he had a lot to say about the science as well as the art of making and eating Sandwiches. Enjoy.

Announcer: This is the Sporkful.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman along with Mark Garrison.

Mark Garrison: Hello Dan.

Dan Pashman: We're about to challenge your assumptions about consumption and drop a sporkful of knowledge on you . Because we're obsessively compulsive about eating more awesomely, and because if history has taught us anything, it's that the hosts of food shows need a lot of catchphrases.

Mark Garrison, how are you, sir?

Mark Garrison: I am doing good. I am energized because I just had a meal. Today I knew that we would revisit some of our NPR times, our Bryant Park years, or I guess months would be more accurate. And so I went and had a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich. And there was a very Proustian sensation when I did that, recalling those times. So we'll reveal why I, uh, was feeling nostalgic in a moment.

Dan Pashman: That sounds delicious. Now, quick reminder, this podcast will end, but it continues online. To find our blog, Facebook and Twitter pages, email address, and more, go to thesporkful.com. That's thesporkful.com. Now, we have a very special guest joining us today, an old friend and a voice well known to many.

He is NPR's esteemed science correspondent and the co-host of Radiolab. He is, of course, Robert Krulwich, welcome to the Sporkful, Robert.

Robert Krulwich: Thank you.

Dan Pashman: Now, uh, for those people who don't know, Mark and I worked together at NPR on a show called The Bryant Park Project. The dear departed Bryant Park Project.

We got to know Robert back then, working together. Had a few great meals with him. And, uh, also did some work with him, some great NPR pieces, which we will post links to on our blog, which, and you can find by going to the sporkful.com.

Robert Krulwich: Having me on your show is a little kind of slumming because you know how I eat.

So I just want to make it clear, the audience doesn't know how I eat.

Dan Pashman: They generally have such a high opinion of you. If only we could bring a video camera to lunch with Robert Krulwich on these days. I think that, uh,

Robert Krulwich: yeah, I mean, the, the, nut of it is, I eat very, very fast and don't notice. So my being on this program is a little.

Mark Garrison: Alright, let's get into today's topic for rumination and mastication, which is, of course, sandwich science. First, we're going to start with physics. Very simple formula you learn early on in the class. Force equals mass times acceleration. In other words, in our case, how do you build a sandwich that will react well to the force of the bite without having the mass of the sandwich accelerate out the back or the sides?

So Robert, how would you avoid this problem?

Robert Krulwich: I think the danger area in any mixed sandwich is the slippery stuff in between. So you have to watch out for your cucumbers and you watch out for your tomatoes. These are sliding objects. Now the breads, can be an adhesive, and the things you stick between can help you.

But the, the, the presence of a dangerous cucumber is something to be very, very worried about, particularly with the tie, the shirt, and anything like the lap.

Dan Pashman: That's right, Robert, and this is something I've identified as the sliced cucumber conundrum. Yeah, and what, what and what you want to do, uh,

Robert Krulwich: You’re very into chapter headings

Dan Pashman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Garrison: I've seen him do this and it, and it's capitalized. This is a proper name. Of course,

Robert Krulwich: It even sounds capitalized.

Dan Pashman: It is. Yes. . Um, but to bring in another scientific principle, you want to create friction. You need friction.

Robert Krulwich: Yes, you do.

Dan Pashman: You do not ever want tomatoes and cucumbers to be pressed up against each other.

Now, in the traditional sandwich construction, oftentimes they'll go. Meat, then cheese, then veggies, then greens. That's normally the way they do it when they're not thinking about it. But what you should do, one way to avoid the sliced cucumber conundrum, is to place the greens between the tomato and cucumber.

Greens are often absorbent. and if you have that

Robert Krulwich: or you could slice the greens into a shreddy like you know those kinds of you know where they Take the lettuce see the dangerous lettuce would be the large lettuce leaf with the thick vein on top. That vein is like a like a track. You know if you lie lay in on that vein you could slide right on it. It even looks like it's inviting motion, but if you take the leaf and you And you grind it up into one of those, do you know how, I don't know, what is that?

Mark Garrison: Shredded lettuce. Yeah, I think when they kind of like slice it on the meat slicer.

Robert Krulwich: Yeah, see now that's a friction. There is your stop sign for the sandwich.

Dan Pashman: I got to disagree with you there, Robert, because, uh, I find shredded lettuce has too high of a surface area to volume ratio, and it will absorb a lot of liquid, and it turns into mush, which creates a different problem.

I think if you have, what I like to use is, let's say.

Robert Krulwich: What kind of liquid would it be absorbing?

Dan Pashman: Well, liquid from the tomatoes and the cucumbers that you're trying to create friction.

Robert Krulwich: I haven't really thought about the inner drinkingness of the sandwich. So the lettuce is drinking the tomato and then slushing up.

Dan Pashman: Exactly. And it will turn almost mealy if you have shredded lettuce. I really object to shredded lettuce in a sandwich. I go for more something like baby spinach, which is dry. It doesn't have the spines, which you were worried about, which is a valid concern, Robert. And you put a little baby spinach or mesclun mix in there and that will absorb the liquid.Yeah.

Robert Krulwich: Mesclun. Now there, that's, that's a slower downer. Right there. Mesclun. Yeah. Yes. That would be a hot.

Dan Pashman: Cause the little Frisée in is very dry.

Robert Krulwich: Frisée. If you're worried at all about slippage, then I would just stick Frisée in anywhere. I would stick Frisée in my lap. Frisée is like a, that's a slower downer basically.

Dan Pashman: We should make you a Frisée smock Robert for when you eat

Robert Krulwich: No. Or just like stuff your mouth with  Frisée and you, you would look like some kind of ornament. Yeah, . And that would be, but it, it was an ornament that would suggest a kind of frozen in timeness. 'cause that's what you're really up against here.

You don't want accidents to happen. Slippage. All these things are things that the, that get the better of you. And there are friendly vegetables that can hold things back. Check the action. Frisee, easily the best one.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Part two of our conversation here is going to be focused around gravity. How do you deal with wet sandwich ingredients like certain veggies, juicy meats, condiments, and oils so that as gravity pulls the liquids earthward, the sandwich doesn't get soggy?

Robert Krulwich: In which we will learn that there is an extraordinary sense in this room that gravity matters a lot.

It does. Which I didn't know.

Dan Pashman: Mark, what do you do to get around this issue of gravity making your sandwich soggy?

Mark Garrison: Well, first of all, I don't think of it as earthward. I think of it more as kind of tongueward. But, uh, I

Robert Krulwich: Which is why you often lie prone during your meals on the floor.

Dan Pashman: If you've thought of your ingredients falling to the earth, I feel like you've already lost.

It's like you've already given up and you've decided you're going to sacrifice that tomato.

Robert Krulwich: They all fall to the earth at the end of the day. You wait a few hours and everything goes earthward at the end.

Mark Garrison: This is true. This is true. But what about the use of cheese as a barrier? I find that to be one of the greatest barriers between any kind of moist or liquidy ingredient and bread and keeping your bread from becoming soft.

Robert Krulwich: I don't know. Cheese always feels to me uninvited between bread. I don't know where I got this. I mean, I know this is very, very un American.

Dan Pashman: Do you, do you eat grilled cheese?

Robert Krulwich: I do, I do. I, but I just look at the cheese and I think to myself in the very, very back of my mind, maybe this is the first time I've ever admitted this, what are you doing here, cheese? I think to myself.

Mark Garrison: In, in any sandwich? Or just in a certain position in the structure of the sandwich?

Robert Krulwich: You know, I think maybe because I grew up in a kosher household. Yeah, there it is. Therefore, you. If, if you had cheese with meat, that would be very, very bad. And there was one moment in my life, and this was a, you know, God clearly was looking down on me at the moment.

I decided I would have a cheeseburger. I was on K Street in Washington, D. C. There are, I don't know how many million people in Washington, D. C.

Dan Pashman: How old were you? How old were you at this time?

Robert Krulwich: I was 23.

Dan Pashman: And you had never had a cheeseburger?

Robert Krulwich: Never had a cheeseburger.

Dan Pashman: Okay, go on.

Robert Krulwich: I, the cheeseburger is served, and I'm getting sweaty.

It's like I'm about to go to a porn film or something. You know, the worst possible situation is you sit down for the porn film and, you know, your Aunt Brenda suddenly opens the door. In this case, as I'm about to eat the cheeseburger, it's sitting there and there's nothing, I can't deny that it's in front of me. My cousin Louis, my cousin Max, my cousin

Dan Pashman: Shecky,

Robert Krulwich: five Krulwiches suddenly walk up the block.

Dan Pashman: Oh no.

Robert Krulwich: And all I could do was drop the, I just dropped the, the cheeseburger.

Dan Pashman: On the ground?

Robert Krulwich: On the ground.

Dan Pashman You were never discovered?

Robert Krulwich: It's like one of those accidents. You know, I dropped the cheeseburger and then a few weeks later, I remember what I did next.

I smiled and stared vacantly at them and stood up and hoped that none of them would notice that there was a hamburger at my feet.

Mark Garrison: But do you believe they noticed and didn't tell you?

Robert Krulwich: No one has ever mentioned it since.

Mark Garrison: But do you believe they noticed and didn't tell you so as not to shame you?

Robert Krulwich: I fear that they noticed it and didn't tell me so as not to shame me, but I don't even know.

But therefore, cheese is dangerous to me.

Dan Pashman: Hmm. And do you eat cheeseburgers now and enjoy them?

Robert Krulwich: No.

Dan Pashman: Really? Wow.

Robert Krulwich: I don't eat cheeseburgers. But now I don't eat cheeseburgers because of the pain. The aforementioned psychic pain.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: I want to talk about wraps a little bit. Robert, you have a problem with wraps. So you brought this to us. Uh, this is part of the reason why I wanted to have you on for this conversation because you have an issue. You're, you're seeking guidance. And that's why a lot of people come to this Sporkful. You have an issue with wraps, which are a type of sandwich, which we'll include in this episode.

Yeah. Tell us about the problem you're having.

Robert Krulwich: Well, it's very simple. Um, I have, um, accidental egress. So you order the, say the wrap, and, uh, they put all this stuff and they wrap it kind of nicely, sort of like Bloomingdale's. But inevitably somehow when you start. Uh, to eat it from the top, and then you're now holding it on a vertical.

Things start coming out of the bottom. The bottom which had been perfectly wrapped. So they can come into the tinfoil, and you hear plunk, plunk, plunk, plunk, chicken piece, chicken piece, chicken piece, tomato. Plop! When you hit plop, then you've already got a little pool there. The question is, could you go to someone, a purveyor of a wrap, and get a sandwich, which will hold through the eat.

Dan Pashman: I think that the tuck will help, but the tuck is not going to be foolproof. When you, when you fold over one end of the wrap.

Robert Krulwich: I don't know why that would be, because like, you're not in any way addressing the bottom. All you're doing is putting a little bit of, Pressure.

Dan Pashman: But you have gravity.

Robert Krulwich: Gravity. That's all we're talking about.

Dan Pashman: But, knowing how you eat, I'm going to guess that you get a wrap that's got a fair amount of sauce involved in it.

Robert Krulwich: A fair amount of sauce.

Dan Pashman: Well, that's already, that's dangerous. If you're going to get a fair amount of sauce in there, you're already playing with fire. A wrap is not really the ideal way to eat something with a lot of sauce.

Have you tried the foil cap at one point?

Robert Krulwich: Yes, of course. It's the foil cap is catching the refuse

Mark Garrison:. Describe your grip on this cylinder.

Robert Krulwich: Side grip

Dan Pashman: In the middle? Are you gripping in the middle?

Robert Krulwich: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Well, that could be a big problem. Yeah. The toothpaste. I think

Robert Krulwich: I'm doing a squeeze.

Dan Pashman: Right, why don't you, you should try, uh, gently cupping from the bottom.

Robert Krulwich: No, I don't want to gently cup from the bottom.

Dan Pashman: Why? You're applying pressure in the middle by squeezing, it's like the toothpaste tube.

Robert Krulwich: It's ugly, that's why.

Dan Pashman: Now you're worried about aesthetics?

Robert Krulwich: Imagine watching a person Well, imagine you're watching a person eating a sandwich. They have the sandwich in their hand, cupped from the bottom.

I don't think so. This looks like somebody, you]know, who doesn't know how to throw a ball.

Mark Garrison: could be, but the other way to look at that is it kind of has the elegance of a sommelier, who you'll have the bottle would present it to you. It could be done.

Dan Pashman: I mean, it certainly looks a lot more presentable than being covered in sauce, which is how you usually end up.

Robert Krulwich: Well, how do you grip these things?

Dan Pashman: Well, first of all, I don't order wraps with a lot of sauce in them.

Robert Krulwich: You don't? What's the point, then?

Dan Pashman: If I'm going to get a wrap, I will have a light condiment on it, mustard or mayo, with cheese and meat and greens.

Robert Krulwich: No, I'm talking about the white stuff that comes out of a: The guy goes, you want red? You want white? You want red? You want white? Right. I want the white.

Dan Pashman: The street carts where they have the white sauce

Robert Krulwich: . I only buy at street carts I don't go to places with tables and chairs anymore.

Dan Pashman: I don't get those in wrap form. I'd rather just get it and eat it with a spoon or with a fork. I get it Over rice. I get the dinner form over rice.

Robert Krulwich: That costs two dollars more, it's out of my league.

Mark Garrison: But you're getting more food though, and that often can become both a lunch and a dinner.

Robert Krulwich: You're getting more food?

Mark Garrison You are!

Robert Krulwich:  Are those, are those have more, larger volumes?

Dan Pashman: That's why it costs more, I believe.

Robert Krulwich: I, I just thought it was a rip off that I was somehow avoiding.

Mark Garrison: The big lie.

Robert Krulwich: So you, neither of you put the white sauce on?

Mark Garrison: I, I have not done it when it's in wrap form.

Robert Krulwich: Because you know that if you add sauce, you're going to lose the integrity of the sandwich?

Mark Garrison: It's going to be problematic, yeah.

Robert Krulwich: Oh my god. It never even occurred to me.

Dan Pashman: Well, Robert, we say that this show is about questioning assumptions about consumption.

That's what we're talking about here.

Robert Krulwich: Yeah, I am very shocked.

Mark Garrison: You can though, I mean, because again, like choosing the, the conveyance, whether it to be over rice or in a wrap form, I mean, you do have to consider the venue if you're going to be mobile. You're going to choose a wrap form. You may have to make some sacrifice in the, in the condiments and sauces.

Dan Pashman: I think the problem may be with, not with the wrap, but with you, Robert. I'm sorry to say that's my diagnosis here.

MUSIC

Mark Garrison: All right, we have covered physics. We need to move into the realm of geometry. A squared plus B squared equals C squared. A sandwich in a typical loaf of bread is a somewhat square shape. It's never perfect, a kind of a mushroomy top like that. But if you were to slice that diagonally, you will end up with two right triangles.

And that's the most common way to slice it. Some people will try and have the symmetry and go down the middle, but it doesn't look that good. I mean, the right triangles

Robert Krulwich: Those are the square people. And really that’s what they are, square. There’s something just really dull about going for a square.

Mark Garrison: So here, Robert, when you're presented with Two right triangles, you, you can, you can, I guess, bite the right angle. I don't know if that's even ever been done.

Robert Krulwich: No, it's never been done.

Mark Garrison: And then you have the choice of biting at the hypotenuse or choosing one of the two acute angles. Where, where do you begin?

Robert Krulwich: For those who are little, um, who have trouble with geometry, what he means by the hypotenuse is he means the obvious place to eat the sandwich.

The big wide part where you can see everything. The middle, the middle. Yeah, that's what it is, and so, of course you eat there, because A, you can look at it, B, you can choose your point of entry, C, it's, it's, that's how you do it. That's how you do it.

Mark Garrison: So you can be anywhere.

Robert Krulwich: No, I've never seen anybody eat the pointy one.

Mark Garrison: When you're saying choosing your point of entry, so you are fine with, any, any point along the long edge.

Robert Krulwich: Like, it's like a piano, you can hit any note on the keyboard, it's stretched there before you.

Mark Garrison: I don't quite understand why you would choose a bite that would put your cheeks in jeopardy of, of being smeared with something.

And also too,

Robert Krulwich: It's like a kiss. If you want to kiss somebody, would you pucker, pucker, pucker, and stretch your lips as far so you got as close to a duck as you could, and then take a little peck? No, you would bury yourself in the lips of the other. A sandwich is a form of comfort and addressing with ardor the meal.

Mark Garrison: I was waiting for the romantic part of it.

Robert Krulwich: You hit the sandwich big time.

Mark Garrison: Why not choose the acute angle and then it's almost like an arrow.

Robert Krulwich: You can't choose the acute.

Mark Garrison: It's an arrow like pointing into your mouth and it goes in there perfectly.

Robert Krulwich: That's the sandwich's way of spiking, that's the sandwich saying, No, not here!

That's what that is. That is the sandwich's spike. You don't, you don't approach, uh what are those animals with all those spikes? Porcupines. You don't approach a porcupine's spike where you, you only address it from the head, where it's not spiky.

Dan Pashman: So you only kiss a porcupine on the lips.

Robert Krulwich: That's right.

Dan Pashman: That's good advice in general, I think, in life.

Mark Garrison: Words to live by.

Robert Krulwich: Have you ever eaten a sandwich from the bottom, from the, from the pointy side?

Mark Garrison: Uh, yes. I have, absolutely. You have? That is my preferred way. I mean, I, I'm not, In general. In general.

Robert Krulwich: You always eat them that way.

Mark Garrison: I do. Like starting with that point.

Robert Krulwich: I've never seen this.

Dan Pashman: Here's my other question, Robert, is that you say that the only way if you have a square sandwich on white or wheat sliced bread, the only way to do it is to cut it diagonally.

Robert Krulwich: Yes.

Dan Pashman: The difference between cutting it diagonally and cutting it across the middle,

Robert Krulwich: no one cuts it across the middle

Mark Garrison: Well, some people it's been done. It's been done.

Dan Pashman: The difference between if you're gonna bite into the center.

Robert Krulwich: Yes.

Dan Pashman: Then there's no difference in cutting it diagonally or cutting it across the middle. The only reason to cut it diagonally is to create the points.

Robert Krulwich: The sandwich doesn't want to be eaten that way. And you are respecting the sandwich to cut on the diagonal so the sandwich can announce with your help where it does not want to be eaten.

To then go ahead and eat the sandwich from that end is to rape the sandwich from that end. Ha! You should probably be arrested by some sandwich policeman.

Mark Garrison: I'm really glad we're completing the circle, because we've done, uh, hard sciences, we've done the mathematics, and now we're kind of into the social science of sandwich psychology. So we've covered most of sandwich

Robert Krulwich: sandwich criminality, actually, here. I think you have something to really worry about.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Well, that just about does it for today's podcast, but the conversation continues online. We have a bonus section of our conversation with Robert, which should not fit into the cut. We're gonna post it to the web, we've got a blog called the Sporkful Test Kitchen, we put photos, videos, and show outtakes there.

You can find it all by going to thesporkful.com.

Mark Garrison: Of course, we also have the social media angle covered. Connect with us to share feedback and show ideas for the future. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter by going to thesporkful.com. Until next time, I'm Mark Garrison.

Dan Pashman: And I'm Dan Pashman, reminding you to eat! Eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

Dan Pashman: The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me, along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern, and senior producer Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios, our executive producers are Nora Ritchie and Colin Anderson.

And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad free music channels curated by genre and era plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one.

Right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXM. com slash Sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.