Barbara Young: Hi Dan, this is Barbara Young in North Aurora, Illinois. My husband and I have issues about how we eat corn bread muffins. 

Dan Pashman: OK, go on. 

Barbara Young: He always takes a knife and cuts them horizontally so there's a bottom and a top. And then while they're warm, he butters them. Lets the butter melt in. And I take the muffin and I break it with my fingers, top to bottom, so that there's a piece of the nice crown, the nice top end, and a piece of the bottom on each half, and that it's craggy in the middle. So when I butter it, it's got nook and crannies or all the butter to melt in to. And we don't understand each other. 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies it’s for eaters, I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. I hope you’re doing okay out there. I know it’s been another intense week. I spent Election Day with my kids making those pan bang chocolate chip cookies that Samin Nosrat talked about in last week’s show, you can watch us at work in my Instagram story highlights. Then I spent the days after Election Day eating all those cookies. This week we’re taking your calls, still keeping things light, unless you have very strong opinions about the best way to eat a jelly donut, in which case this episode is gonna be pretty serious for you. We’ll get to that. 

Dan Pashman: But first let’s get to Barbara and Bruce in North Aurora, Illinois, who we started to hear from at the top of the show. As Barbara said, Bruce uses a knife to cut corn muffins horizontally, to create a top and bottom. Barbara uses her fingers to pull them apart vertically, making a left and right half, each with part of the top and part of the bottom. Now, before I can decide who’s eating it wrong, I need more info. 

Dan Pashman: Barbara, how long have you guys been together?

Barbara Young: We've been married about ten years. Together...quite a bit longer than that. 

Dan Pashman: OK. So it's two issues. Part is that you like the nooks and crannies. Part is that you want a little bit of top in every bite. 

Barbara Young: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: OK. And the nook and crannies, really what you're getting at there, Barbara is surface area to volume ratio. The common hobby horse here on The Sporkful. By breaking it a part and having an uneven surface on the piece of corn bread muffin, you are increasing the surface area available to absorb that delicious, delicious butter. 

Barbara Young: Yes, and it just tastes better that way. 

Dan Pashman: Ok, alright. Well, that's a strong argument. Is your husband Bruce around? Can I talk to him?

Barbara Young: He's right here. 

Dan Pashman: OK. 

Barbara Young: Yes, hang on. 

Dan Pashman: Alright, let's here hear what Bruce has to say for himself. 

Bruce Young: Hello. 

Dan Pashman: Hey Bruce, how are you?

Bruce Young: I'm pretty good. How are you?

Dan Pashman: Good. Good.  So I was just talking to your wife Barbara. She's got some issues with the way you eat corn bread muffins.

Bruce Young: Well, I have some issues...

Dan Pashman: What do you have to say for yourself?

Bruce Young: I have some issues with the way she eat it, too, but....

[LAUGHING]

Bruce Young: I'm not sure. I've always done it this way. Corn bread, when you try—for me, when you try to tear it a part, often it breaks. And so cutting it in half seems to keep the pieces together. So you don't have little chunks around, which is one of the reasons why I do it. And I like corn bread muffins a lot I like the top better than the bottom, but I still like them both and I will butter it and eat the bottom and then eat the top later and really enjoy it. 

Dan Pashman: What do you say to Barbara's comment about the butter, about the crags, the nooks and crannies and the advantages that those present?

Bruce Young: Ummm, I think that's just a little overrated. I find with a nice smooth surface to put hot butter on, it melts right in and through the corn bread. 

Dan Pashman: Do you ever slice the cornbread muffin horizontally, put the butter on the insides, and then griddle it, so it gets golden brown and crispy?

Bruce Young: Um, let's see? No, I have to say I have never tried that. That certainly sounds fun. 

Dan Pashman: It's more than fun, it's freaking amazing. 

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: But this is an interesting one. 

Bruce Young: So what do you think about it? Where do you lie in this controversy. 

Dan Pashman: Well, I have to say that I think your approaches probably say a lot about your personalities. Like for instance....actually, you know what? Barbara and Bruce, I'm gonna put you on hold for a minute. Are we good? They can't hear me? OK, alright. I'm gonna make a prediction. I'm making a prediction. We'll see if I'm gonna be right. Barbara like to get in there. She likes to pull the food a part with her hands. She wants maximum butter. She is someone who—she's more the one who's a little bit willing to take risks, a little bit more full of gusto. Bruce, he's more the steady hand. He wants a nice smooth cut. He's got his way of doing it. It's the way he's always done it and he's happy, alright? I also suspect that Bruce is neater than Barbara. Those are my predictions. OK, let's bring them back. 

Bruce Young: Hello. 

Dan Pashman: Bruce and Barbara, can you hear me?

Bruce Young: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Could you hear what I was just saying just then?

Bruce Young: No, nu-uh. 

Dan Pashman: OK. OK. So keep Barbara nearby, I'm gonna ask you a couple questions now, Bruce. 

Bruce Young: OK. 

Dan Pashman: Between the two of your, which one would you say is the more sort of adventurous, the one more likely to take risks, the one who's more...who may live life on the edge with a little more gusto?

Barbara Young: Hmm. 

Bruce Young: Well, personally, I'd say that we're pretty close but probably me. 

Barbara Young: I'd say. 

Dan Pashman: Really?

Barbara Young: Yeah, I'd agree. 

Bruce Young: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Really? Well, shows you what I know. 

Barbara Young: Not by a lot. Not by a lot. 

Dan Pashman: And now which one of you is neater around the house?

Barbara Young: That would be me. 

Dan Pashman: So it was the exact opposite of what I had predicted. Well, I will tell you this. Here's where I come down on your debate. I think that if you are going to eat the muffin hot of out the oven, I would go with Barbara's approach. I would break it up by hand because I agree. I want a little bit of that crust in every bite and I like those crags for catching more butter. However, I have often done Bruce’s approach, when the muffins aren't quite so fresh and in that case slice them in half horizontally, butter the insides and then put those buttered insides sides down and griddle them in a non-stick pan. So they turn golden brown and crispy and buttery. 

Barbara Young: We have to have try that. We often have more than enough corn bread muffins to have some the next day. We're definitely gonna try that. 

Dan Pashman: There you go. And if you really want to go hard core, if your muffins are big enough, you can do what I call Muffin Trifrication. Slice them into thirds. This time I would go vertically. Slice them vertically into thirds and then you have the middle slice that's got two open sides. You butter both sides and griddle both sides of that one. 

[LAUGHING]

Barbara Young: Ohhh. 

Dan Pashman: Now you are vastly increasing your butter per muffin, which is something we can all get behind I think. Well, Barbara and Bruce in North Aurora, Illinois, enjoy your muffins. 

Barbara Young: Thank you so much. 

Bruce Young: Thank you. 

Dan Pashman: Thanks guys, take care. 

Barbara Young: Thanks for the good ideas. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Now, these calls originally aired back in 2015, and I got to tell you, when we did a live show in Chicago last year, Bruce and Barbara were there! They came up. They introduced themselves after the show. It was super fun to meet them in person. They were really nice and they told me that since that call, they have both become big fans of slicing muffins open and griddling them in butter. Ok let’s get back to the phones. 

Dan Pashman: Hi, who’s this?

Larry: Hi, this is Larry calling from New York. 

Dan Pashman: Alright Larry, what's on your mind?

Larry: So the other day, I was walking through the park having a jelly doughnut and I ran into this issue of wondering, "What level the doughnut should be filled at?", because the one I was having as I was going through and you get towards the center, had too much jelly in it in that it was coming out. And I wasn't sure if I should lick that jelly up, should I try and smear it to the side. Or what is the right level of proper jelly filled-ness of a doughnut. 

Dan Pashman: Larry, you've raised a really vital and valid concern here with jelly doughnuts in general, which is that they're kind of a mess. You get this big blob of jelly in the middle that is kind of gross. Like it's often not very good jelly. And even if it is good jelly, you don't usually want a huge mouthful of jelly. The other problem with a big glob in the center is that you get these perimeter bites that have no jelly. 

Larry: Exactly. 

Dan Pashman: And you're always like tentatively nibbling and nibbling around the perimeter wondering when you're gonna break through, because you know the second you break through like all hell's gonna break loose. And to me this is really sign—the whole food is faulty. So I don't think there's anything wrong with using a knife. But I think that really we're asking the wrong question here. Or you know, we can talk about how to deal with a jelly doughnut but really what we should be asking is, "How can we make the jelly doughnut better, so that we don't have this problem in the first place?" You're lucky that you live in New York, Larry, because you live near Doughnut Plant, which is that place that I recommend and they're are probably other doughnut places around the country that do this. If not, I hope they're listening. Because doughnut plant has solved the jelly doughnut. Do you know what they do?

Larry: They do the square doughnuts. 

Dan Pashman: The square doughnut.....

Dan Pashman: Hey guys, it's Dan here in the present, interrupting. In listening back to this, I don't think my description of the Doughnut Plant technique was very clear. So the Doughnut Plant filled jelly doughnut is a square doughnut with a hole in the middle. So it's essentially four straight lines that come together to form a square. And the fact that they're straight is the key, because you inject the jelly into the doughnut. So the classic jelly doughnut, you stick a syringe into the middle of it and put this one big blob of jelly in the middle. With the four straight lines of the square Doughnut Plant doughnut, that way you get a thin ribbon of jelly throughout. A little bit of jelly in each bite. It's pretty amazing. You got to try it. Now back to my conversation with Larry. 

Larry: I totally agree. I love Doughnut Plant and I think that their jelly method is superior. 

Dan Pashman: How do you feel about my statement, that it's OK to use a knife?

Larry: I don't agree with the statement about the knife, cause if you're not given a knife—it's sort of like a bagel. They cut it in half for you and you can take the bagel and eat it like that. But if you're sort of taking a doughnut for the ride and you have the cellophane wrapper that they give you and you don't have one with you, you're sort of out of luck. 

Dan Pashman: Well, let's see if maybe there's a happy medium we can reach here, Larry, for the faulty classic jelly doughnut. What about a tear and dip method? What if you were to tear—let's say you were to hold the jelly doughnut in your hand, not flat but on it's side? And you tear a little piece and you keep tearing delicately until you have access to the well, to the glob, in the middle. And you tear and then you dip. And you tear and you dip. So you can spread the jelly—even that, it's going to get messy. But as we said, that's gonna happen no matter what. 

Larry: I think that's the perfect solution. I think that's actually brilliant. 

Dan Pashman: The tear and the dip. Have you tried that? The tear and the dip. 

Larry: No! I'm definitely gonna try that though. I think that's really really brilliant. Cut it, then you can sort of take it out and then you can evenly spread out your jelly across the doughnut. You're sort of leveling out the jelly, so you can avoid the blob. 

Dan Pashman: That's right. You're correcting the mistake that the inventor of the jelly doughnut made, oh so many years ago.

Larry: That's brilliant. I'm totally gonna try that. 

Dan Pashman: Alright Larry, I want you to try that and I want you to call me back and let me know how it goes. 

Larry: I will absolutely call you back, Dan. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, Matt calls in from Dayton, Ohio, to talk about pancakes. But it turns out he’s calling about much more. Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. If you’re looking for more escapism, if you want to decompress a little, listen to last week’s podcast. I talk with Samin Nosrat of Salt Fat Acid Heat fame, and Hrishi Hirway of the podcast and Netflix show Song Exploder. They’ve teamed up to do a podcast called Home Cooking. When they joined me, we challenged ourselves to see how much time we could spend analyzing the finer points of cookies. What’s the ideal cookie texture crispy, crunchy, chewy, gooey? And what’s better, chocolate chips or chocolate chunks? This conversation got intense. 

CLIP (SAMIN NOSRAT): I'm so stressed right now. I'm sweating.

Dan Pashman: That one’s up now, it’s a lot of fun, check it out. Now back to the show, and back to the phones. 

Dan Pashman: Hi, who’s this?

Matt: Hi, this is Matt calling from Dayton, Ohio. 

Dan Pashman: Hey Matt. What would you like to talk about today?

Matt: Well, I'm wanting to talk about the humble pancake. And when I was a kid growing up, my brother, my younger brother, used to sit around the breakfast table on Saturday morning when we had pancakes. And my mom would make crepe pancakes and I would, like a normal kid, put butter and syrup on the pancakes. And my brother would put butter, peanut butter, apple sauce, jam, syrup and fruit. Sometimes all at the same time on his pancake. And I always thought, you know, "Where do you draw the line?" I mean, when does this no longer become a pancake? It's a shame that the ancient pancake is treated with such disregard. 

Dan Pashman: When you were kids and your brother was doing this with the pancakes and putting so much stuff on top, did you ever challenge him on it then? Was there a point of discussion or tension?

Matt: Oh, absolutely. 

Dan Pashman: And what would he say in response?

Matt: Well, he would say that he likes the variety. 

Dan Pashman: What does your brother say about pancakes now?

Matt: I mean, I think...I think he has, like me, fond memories of his days growing up and eating pancakes but he hasn't moved from his position of dumping everything on top of one.

Dan Pashman: So your approach to pancakes is a little more minimalist, traditionalist. 

Matt: Right. 

Dan Pashman: His approach a little more outlandish, a little more of an individualist. 

Matt: Right. 

Dan Pashman: Do you see those approaches manifested in your personalities today in other ways?

Matt: I mean..yeah. I mean, maybe you're really getting into the heart of it here. I do, to some degree. I mean, my brother's always been this individualist. I mean, he does his own thing and does it in his own way. And so, yeah. You may be right about that. During college he lived in a cabin in Montana, which none of us did. And so that type of individualist spirit, maybe that did carry over into his love for pancakes. 

Dan Pashman: He wasn't writing any manifestos up there, was he?

Matt: Not that I know of. But he has written like a novel. 

Dan Pashman: OK. 

Matt: So that's close I'm sure. 

Dan Pashman: And so explain to me exactly what your concern is. Are you just upset that you feel like he's making something that's gross and pancakes are better in a a more minimalist approach? Or is that you're trying to defend the word pancake and that you feel like it's sort of being co-opted into this other—and used to describe this other concoction that your brother came up with?

Matt: Yeah, I think more the latter. And I mean, if a pancake if truly gonna be part of the breakfast canon, I think we need to know it's place. And when you have all of these other things on top of it, we're really confusing the traditional breakfast dish of a pancake with something much desert like. 

Dan Pashman: But I mean, if making it desert like is your concern, I mean, you're putting butter and maple syrup on top of it. 

Matt: Right and that's a valid argument, for sure. 

Dan Pashman: And it does have the work cake in it. 

Matt: It does. It does have the word cake in it. But by the same token, I feel like a pancake should be something you should be able to grab even without butter and syrup and it should still be a delicious thing to have. You know, you could take one even going out the door and it should still be something you can enjoy. 

Dan Pashman: I don't disagree with that but does that mean when you put a lot of things on it and you can't grab it as you're running out the door, that it's no longer a pancake?

Matt: Well, let me put it this way. When I see a pancake that's covered with tons of other stuff, the first thing I think to myself is, "Whoever created that pancake is hiding something." I mean, the makers of that pancake were afraid to let the pancake shine because the pancake is faulty in someway. 

Dan Pashman: But see now we're getting into the heart of the matter here. Alright Matt? Because, you know, I asked you a minute ago, are you upset because you feel protective of the pancake as a food? Or because you're worried about the terminology? And you said it's more about terminology but I can hear in your voice and based on where you end up focusing that actually—I mean, one of the first words you said here in our conversation was, "The humble pancake." You have a certain feeling of—you feel protective of the pancake. 

Matt: But shouldn't we all be protective of these traditional breakfast foods?

Dan Pashman: I got a few issues with that one sentence because the fact that it's a traditional breakfast food to me has always kind of been problematic, first of all. 

Matt: OK. 

Dan Pashman: You know, it's got the word cake in it. It's basically cake. The other thing you've said that's sort of—I struggle with. I just don't get it with pancakes. To me, they're so ordinary. Even a really good pancake doesn't have that much going on. I could name probably fifty bread based products that I would rather have than a pancake. 

Matt: Well, I mean, aside from the fact that that's crushing to hear, I think that you are profoundly misguided when you talk about bread based products. The pancake does have a special place because if it's standard shape and because of it's fluffy texture that could be lost were people like my brother able to run ramp and over the definition of that food. 

Dan Pashman: Who made the pancakes growing up in your household?

Matt: It was kind of a family thing. 

Dan Pashman: And what are some of your memories of pancakes around your house on those Saturday mornings?

Matt: Oh, a lot of my best memories of my childhood. I mean, we have that huge steaming plate of pancakes. That we were all sitting around the table. Usually, the weekdays, we're rushing to get somewhere to school or wherever. So we just grabbed cereal. And so on Saturday mornings we had that time we were all together as a family eating pancakes. 

Dan Pashman: Is it possible that maybe that's why you feel so protective of pancakes, Matt?

Matt: Wow, I mean that...well, I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. You may be on to something. 

Dan Pashman: I mean....

Matt: You think I maybe I'm linking that to my—that lost childhood, if you will, to my love of pancakes. 

Dan Pashman: Something like that. I mean, it just strikes me that you a visceral reaction to protect pancakes. As if an attack on pancakes is an attack on your very upbringing. 

Matt: Right. Right. You maybe be right. 

Dan Pashman: And do you have a significant other in your life? Do you have a family?

Matt: I do. Yup. I have wife and a young daughter. 

Dan Pashman: What do you guys do on Saturday mornings?

Matt: We often have, actually, waffles. 

[LAUGHING]

Matt: Hey, it's...I know. I know. It's not...it's maybe...my wife's a big fan of waffles. In the interest of loving her...

Dan Pashman: Uh-huh. 

Matt: And being supportive of her, I let her choose the breakfast food. 

Dan Pashman: So basically, tradition and family and pancakes meant a lot to you until your wife came into the picture. And then you threw all that out the window and went to waffles. 

Matt: Well, I still think that I'll be able to establish a bulwark in my daughter's life. I mean, she's only seven months old at this point. 

Dan Pashman: OK. 

Matt: So I believe that as she grows up, you know, covertly, I can kind of establish that love and then we'll out number, of course, my wife at some point. 

Dan Pashman: OK. Alright, so Matt, before I let you go, I guess, I do need to give you a definitive answer here. I would say as to you and your brother, you guys are different people and your approaches to pancakes reflect that. So I think you should accept your brother and his pancakes as they are. As to the question of terminology, I guess this is one of those situations where I think that the word pancakes has two meanings. There's the food pancake and there's the dish pancakes. OK? Now, the food pancake is just pancake batter poured into a pan and cooked and that is a pancake. And no matter what you put on top of it, that round thing that you took out of a pan will always be a pancake. You can't call it something else. That being said, if you take a pancake and cover it with butter and syrup and peanut butter and jelly and apple sauce and fruit, is that still an order of pancakes? Or is that some other concoction in which a pancake is one component? [sighs] Where is the line there drawn? Do you wanna take a crack at a rule?

Matt: I guess, I would say if they volume of the what is on top of the pancake exceeds the volume of the pancake or pancakes themselves, then you have something that is no longer a pancake. It's more of a desert cake or some other dish entirely. 

Dan Pashman: So by that definition, I could take a stack of three pancakes...

Matt: Right. 

Dan Pashman: I could spread butter on top. I could pour syrup on top. I could spread peanut butter and jelly on top and that would probably still not equal the mass of those three pancakes. 

Matt: And I'm OK with giving a little ground there. I mean, anyway we can get more pancakes on your plate that's OK with me. 

Dan Pashman: I'll go along with that. And if the percentage of pancake dip below 50%, than depending on what's on top you gotta decide what you're gonna call it. 

Matt: Right. Right. 

Dan Pashman: OK. Alright. Alright, fair enough. Well, Matt in Ohio, thanks so much for the call. Enjoy your pancakes and/or waffles. 

Matt: Alright, I appreciate it. Thanks for what you do. 

Dan Pashman: My pleasure. Thank you. Take care. 

Matt: Alright, bye. 

Dan Pashman: Bye. 

MUSIC

Larry: Hey, this is Larry Fish from Manhattan, calling back about my jelly doughnut incident. 

Dan Pashman: Alright Larry, what's the report? Talk to me. 

Larry: So Dan, I tried the tear and dip method twice since we spoke. And the first time, I sort of failed because I found that the key to making this method work is knowing where the epicenter of your jelly doughnut is. So what happened was the first time I tore it too deep and the jelly just sort of just came out. So what you got to do is tear right before that epicenter, so you can get that doughy part, squeeze out some of that jelly and then you can even out your eating of the jelly and not lose anything. 

Dan Pashman: Right. So it needs to be a subtle back and forth between tear a little, dip a little, squeeze a little and repeat. You don't want to rip the doughnut in half on the first go. Is that what you're telling me, Larry?

Larry: That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you. 

Dan Pashman: Great. So you're excited about this technique?

Larry: Yeah! It's a great technique. Works out really well.  

Dan Pashman: Alright, any other words of wisdom to share with people, Larry, based on your research?

Larry: Just keep eating lots of doughnuts. They're really delicious and it works out really well. 

Dan Pashman: Alright. Thanks Larry. 

Larry: Thanks Dan. 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, Jose Ralat has a pretty incredible job. He’s the Taco Editor for Texas Monthly Magazine. In a few weeks they’re releasing their special taco issue, which only comes out once every five years and it’s the first one since Jose got this job. He’ll explain why tacos are important, and we’ll ride shotgun with him as he criss crosses the state doing research.

CLIP (JOSÉ RALAT): This is important to understand. It is Sunday in Texas. We eat barbacoa. So as soon as we get our hands on some we're gonna eat it. 

Dan Pashman: That’s next week. If you don’t want to miss it, please make sure you subscribe to our podcast in Apple Podcasts, or favorite in Stitcher, or if you listen in Spotify hit follow. You can do it right now while you’re listening. Thanks. And while you wait for next week, check out last week’s very fun deep dive on cookies with Samin and Hrishi of Home Cooking. And watch me and my kids make some cookies on Instagram in my Story highlights. Follow me there @TheSporkful.

Dan Pashman: Also, I want to make sure you know about another podcast called Homemade, hosted by Martie Duncan. You know the website Allrecipes, which has like a bajillion recipes for any kind of food you'd ever want to make? Homemade is their podcast. One of my favorite recent episodes was with Duff Goldman, the Ace of Cakes guy. In the episode, Duff talks about his own wedding cake, which was made out of meat. Plus, some of the basics of baking cakes and why he's so dedicated to giving back to his community. But most importantly, he talked about the best part of apple pie.

CLIP (DUFF GOLDMAN): The thing about that pie that I find so good is that goo. I tell you, when I get a apple that doesn't have goo in it, it's...I don't. I mean, I get. It's like a little more rustic with the slices of apples, but it's not—I like the goo. 

Dan Pashman: So check out Homemade from Allrecipes. They've got that episode with Duff Goldman, plus I was on the show a couple weeks ago too. So you can check that out. Find Homemade wherever you listen to podcasts.