MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And today, we are back with another salad spinner edition of the show! This is our rapid fire roundtable discussion of the biggest, weirdest, and most surprising food stories of the moment.

Dan Pashman: Now, of course, I can't run through all these big headlines on my own. I need some help. Now joining me today in the spinner are two very special guests and friends of mine. Josh Scherer is a chef and star of the Mythical Kitchen YouTube channel, where he hosts Last Meals, a show where he sits down with celebrities to discuss the two things all people have in common, eating and dying.

Dan Pashman: And also hailing from the Mythical Kitchen universe, we have Nicole Enayati, author of the cookbook, Bake Up. And together, Josh and Nicole, they are a powerful duo. They co host the Mythical Kitchen podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, which is not only the name of their podcast, but also a true statement. Hello, Nicole and Josh!

Nicole Enayati: Hey, what's up?

Josh Scherer: Thank you for being a voice of reason.

[LAUGHING] 

Josh Scherer: Too many people fight us on that. 

Nicole Enayati: I know. 

Josh Scherer: We have had guests walk off set on the podcast because ... 

Nicole Enayati: No, they haven't. Stop spreading falsehoods. 

Josh Scherer: But they will ...

Dan Pashman: Someday. Yeah, goals. And so you're coming to us from your studio in L.A. where you have the logo of your podcast in the background. So you look very professional in that way. Anyone who zooms with you knows what your stance is on the hot dog being a sandwich.

Nicole Enayati: Right. 

Josh Scherer: We wear our politics on our sleeve, yes.

[LAUGHING]

Nicole Enayati: We had them on our shirts actually, remember? We made shirts?

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS] Yeah, we have a hat.

Nicole Enayati: We made shirts that said "A hot dog is a sandwich and a hot dog is not a sandwich.", and we sold them to people. Remember that?

Josh Scherer: We never gathered the data. 

Nicole Enayati: It's a shame. 

Josh Scherer: I'm gonna hit up our merch department and see. 

Dan Pashman: So you don't know which one sold better? 

Josh Scherer: No. 

Nicole Enayati: No, we don't. 

Josh Scherer: But we gotta ... I will say "The hot dog is a sandwich" shirt was just a better looking shirt. 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah, it was. 

Josh Scherer: But all political polling is skewed. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, you didn't control for all the variables.

Josh Scherer: No, we did not. 

Nicole Enayati: No, we didn't.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: But the point is that people come on to A Hot Dog Is A Sandwich and the two of you have opinions about food. You're not shy.

Josh Scherer: We sure do. I mean, that's how this whole podcast started [Nicole Enayati: Right.] is we wanted something that we knew we could do every single week until the day that we died. 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah. 

Josh Scherer: So we thought, "What is something that comes very naturally to us?", and when we were in the kitchen cooking for the YouTube show, we would just argue about food all the time. You know, I'd be like, "Technically, ketchup is a, like, chutney," and Nicole would be like, "No, it's for children. It sucks," and then we'd just start arguing. And now we just do that with a mic in one of those little ... [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] and one of those little clacker slates that ... 

Nicole Enayati: A slate. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Nicole Enayati: Yes, just call it a slate. 

Josh Scherer: A slate, that's what they call it. 

Nicole Enayati: Keep up.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Nicole, what's another, like, ongoing argument you have with Josh?

Nicole Enayati: Oh, ongoing argument. I think he's a big smoothie guy. And I don't know. I just ... I just always ask, like, "Why do you eat cold breakfast all the time?"

Josh Scherer: Hmm. 

Nicole Enayati: Like, don't you ever crave, like, an egg or, like, a pancake? But he's like, "No, this is my fuel."

Josh Scherer: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Nicole Enayati: And he kind of talks like that about it. And I'm like, come on, man, life's about enjoying ... 

Josh Scherer: I crave eggs and pancakes after 2:30 P.M., which I will make myself a breakfast burrito. 

Nicole Enayati: Is that brunch though?

Josh Scherer: No, it's still breakfast. It's a breakfast burrito. 

Nicole Enayati: 2:30?

Josh Scherer: There's no such thing as meals anymore. I just have protein feedings throughout the day.

[LAUGHING] 

Nicole Enayati: That's right. 

Josh Scherer: I have five protein feedings throughout the day and ... 

Nicole Enayati: That's very true. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: But is it a breakfast burrito if it's your second meal of the day?

Josh Scherer: I think that I have transcended the meal taxonomy. You know what I mean? 

[LAUGHING] 

Nicole Enayati: You have. You have. 

Josh Scherer: There's no more breakfast. There's no more brunch. And these things are all like new. They're all shifting. They're all nebulous. Right?

Nicole Enayati: Right. 

Josh Scherer: I grew up, my dad grew up calling, what I would call dinner, supper, and what I would call lunch, he called dinner. 

Nicole Enayati: Hmm. 

Josh Scherer: It might have been like a Pennsylvania Dutch thing, I don't know. 

Nicole Enayati: Interesting. 

Josh Scherer: But the point is, all these names, they're meaningless. You just eat food when you want to, and I will eat eggs at any time of the day. 

Nicole Enayati: True. True. 

Dan Pashman: Look, I'm all for eating eggs or pancakes at any time of day, whenever you want. I just feel though, the word is break fast. 

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Breakfast, break fast. So it means you're breaking your fast from the night. So the first meal of the day, whatever it is, it can be a steak, it can be a smoothie, but whatever the first thing you eat is your breakfast by definition.

Nicole Enayati: Correct. No notes. Like, I agree with you.

[LAUGHING] 

Josh Scherer: I'm going to start using the ancient Roman term, ientaculum.

Nicole Enayati: Oh god. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Josh Scherer: It's no longer breakfast, it's ientaculum. 

Nicole Enayati: God.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: All right, well listen, we got a lot of ground to cover here, you two. I have dug up some of the weirdest and wackiest recent food stories, some of them big news, some of them might have been flying under the radar, okay? So, I'm gonna share them with you, get your takes. We're gonna discuss and debate. You ready?

Josh Scherer: Absolutely. 

Nicole Enayati: Yup.

Dan Pashman: All right. Let's crank up the salad spinner!

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT] 

Dan Pashman: All right. Now our first story is about lab grown meat, also known as cell cultivated meat. It's something we've talked about in The Sporkful before, but just to refresh people's memories. It's not the same as, like, Impossible Burgers or Beyond Burgers. Those are not meat. Lab grown meat is meat. It is protein animal cells, it's just that they are grown in a lab, like effectively in a petri dish, never actually as part of a whole animal. So in theory, if they can get it to work, they could produce meat in this lab without ever having to raise and kill animals. Billions of dollars have been invested in this research, a lot of big time investors and Silicon Valley types think they're going to make a lot of money on it.

Dan Pashman: What we've learned when we've covered this in our show in the past is that they've actually made tremendous advances in the meat. The issue is that they're still a long ways away from being able to do that in a way that's at all cost effective. Now there's another obstacle, and this is the breaking news. Florida has become the first U.S. state to ban the production and sale of lab grown or cell cultivated meat. Governor Ron DeSantis signed SB 1084 into law, rejecting the new technology despite its safety approval by the U.S. Agriculture Department and the FDA. 

Dan Pashman: Some other elected officials are saying this is a move to protect traditional farming industries from competition. The legislation's also received support from Democratic Senator John Fetterman, and it’s sparked similar strategies against this meat in Alabama, Arizona, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee. And Florida State Representative Dean Black, a Republican cattle rancher, said, “Cultured meat is made by man, real meat is made by God himself.” Nicole and Josh, what are your thoughts on this new development in the ongoing saga of lab grown meat?

Nicole Enayati: I mean, ehh ... Well, let me tell you, if a — test tube babies, those are real babies! 

Josh Scherer: Jesus Christ. 

Nicole Enayati: Those are real babies! Those are real babies! So I think it's real meat. The fact is, it just doesn't have a brain, or a heart, or eyes, but it's real meat. So I don't understand why everyone's so up in arms about it. I think it's just to protect, like, [Josh Scherer: Yeah.] cattle ranchers and all that stuff. 

Josh Scherer: Well, but it's not even to protect cattle ranchers, right? It's a political football at this point. 

Nicole Enayati: It sounds like it.

Josh Scherer: It's actually a culture war issue. 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah.

Josh Scherer: And the fact that DeSantis is the one that introduced this, [Nicole Enayati: Right.] like that's not lost on anybody. 

Nicole Enayati: Right. 

Josh Scherer: The fact that Silicon Valley and big tech is now involved, which I'm incredibly dubious of any time big tech gets involved in food. I'm, like, very dubious that lab grown meat is going to be a part of our lives whatsoever in the next 20 years. Also, American farmers 100 years ago, 30 percent of the population today, it's only 2 percent of the population. I know there are a lot of awesome family farmers out there. 

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hm. 

Josh Scherer: A lot of this is run by large agricultural conglomerates. This is not about actually getting farmers to vote for you, it's about the culture war of believing in a rural pastoral America that doesn't exist anymore versus these big tech titans.

Dan Pashman: You feel like it's not that they care about family farmers, they care about the giant corporate farming conglomerates that actually produce the overwhelming majority [Nicole Enayati: Yeah.] of the meat that Americans consume.

Josh Scherer: I think they care about them, and I think they probably care about the median Republican voter.

Nicole Enayati: Probably. 

Josh Scherer: Right? Because I know Fetterman is all involved in this, but this does seem to be a more like right wing dog whistley issue. 

Dan Pashman: Nicole, would you try it?

Nicole Enayati: Yeah, I would. I would try it, but I don't think I would ... I would subscribe to it, like, for it to come to my house, like, once a month.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] Right, right. 

Nicole Enayati: I think I would try it once, try it twice ... 

Dan Pashman: Right, but let's say that it was the same price as traditionally raised meat. And let's say you thought, like, the flavor, the experience was, like, very close. 

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Would you switch over for ethical reasons?

Josh Scherer: Hmmm.

Nicole Enayati: I don't ... I don't think so. I don't think [Josh Scherer: Why not?] I would switch over for ethical reasons. There's something about it that just turns me off a little bit. I think I'm still very new to the whole — even buying Impossible Meat and all of these like Beyond Burger stuff, I barely ever have it in my house. I barely go out and eat it. I kind of just like, right now, at my age, I like just eating meat from a cow. [Dan Pashman: Right. LAUGHS] or from a chicken, or from a pig.

Dan Pashman: I also just feel — you know, it's like, can't we all just try to eat less meat?

Nicole Enayati: Yeah, sure.

Dan Pashman: Like, that seems to me like such a better solution than spending billions of dollars trying to create this, like, sort of subpar substitute.

Nicole Enayati: Right.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All right, let's spin the spinner. 

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT] 

Dan Pashman: All right, our next story, I don't know how close you two have been following this one, but Chipotle and their seemingly shrinking portion sizes. This is an issue that has blown up on TikTok. A lot of people are saying that their burritos and bowls, which were long famous for being so huge, are shrinking. People are protesting, they're filming the workers as they make the burritos, they think that will sort of pressure them into putting more in the burritos. They're weighing them and reporting on social media. The C.E.O. of Chipotle felt moved to come out and say, "No, we have not changed the recipe. The portions are the same. We in fact went back and retrained our employees to make sure they know all about portioning ... " But what do you two think is going on here? 

Nicole Enayati: We live in a surveillance state. Umm ...  

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS] And we created it ourselves!

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Nicole Enayati: I think that the C.E.O. is probably lying and they are said you can only put two and a half ounces of meat per scoop and those press releases are just to save face and they're just trying to save money wherever they can. I really do.

Josh Scherer: I think the same reason this is happening is the reason that when you play online video games, people are so mean to you. 

Nicole Enayati: [LAUGHS] 

Josh Scherer: Hear me out. 40 percent of Chipotle orders are placed online. 

Nicole Enayati: What? 

Josh Scherer: Right? 40 percent of Chipotle orders are placed online for either pickup or delivery. 

Nicole Enayati: Nuts. 

Josh Scherer: And when you don't see somebody make your food, I think, yeah, you can short them on the meat. And I wouldn't doubt that they're like fully, directed to do that, right? 

Nicole Enayati: Fair. 

Josh Scherer: And so I think that culture has led to a general shorting of portions because you don't have to look somebody in the eye and feel that empathy. 

Dan Pashman: Right.

Josh Scherer: And then now you get people who are just driven by negative attention online filming innocent Chipotle workers. If you do that, like you're flat out a bad person. 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah, don’t do that.

Josh Scherer: If you film anybody at their job, you're a bad person.

Dan Pashman: I'm going to push back a little bit on both of you because I think It would be an awfully big risk for the C.E.O. to flat out lie about it because if it was discovered that they were lying and they were deceiving people. 

Josh Scherer: Hm.

Dan Pashman: I'm pretty sure they could run afoul of some like FTC complaints. In terms of what you're saying, Josh, so listen to this, a Wells Fargo restaurant analyst decided to try to do some data analysis on this. A team of folks at Wells Fargo went out and bought 75 burrito bowls, all with the same order. They went to eight different Chipotle locations across New York City. They did some purchased in store and some purchased through the app. So that controls for what you're saying, Josh. And they found no difference between to go orders and in-person orders. What they did find, that I thought was most interesting, is that in general, there was a huge variation. The bull weight overall ranged from at the very highest, almost 27 ounces to a couple that they had were 14 ounces.

Josh Scherer: No way! [LAUGHS] 

Nicole Enayati: Wow. 

Dan Pashman: Yes. But the vast majority were somewhere in the 18 to 24 ounce range, which is still kind of a big range. They ordered the exact same bowl at every place. Now, on one hand, you could look at that and say, geez, they're all over the map. On the other hand, like one of the things that Chipotle has always advertised is like, oh, it's fresh. It's handmade. Like there's real human beings here making this stuff. 

Josh Scherer: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And to me, like that's part of the trade off. Like if you want actual live human beings to make your food fresh to order, there's going to be some variation.

Nicole Enayati: Well, I wanted to give a personal anecdote, if that's okay.

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Okay.

Nicole Enayati: So, I used to work as a research and development chef for a salad company. And one of the most important things of my job was testing different utensils [Josh Scherer: Hmm.] to pour the proper amount of product in those cute little sectionals, in those cute little sachets, or in those cute little, like, plastic boxes. Okay? And the amount of times that I had to test different kinds of utensils from different kinds of companies, the material it was made out of, the weight of it, [Josh Scherer: Mm-hmm.] things like that in order to create the fastest package available was quite tedious. So my brain is thinking maybe they haven't done their due diligence in terms of QCing stuff, with training and stuff. Maybe they just need to change the spoons, so it's actually weighed out and it's actually standardized across every single Chipotle? So that way, we don't have variances that are, what, you said, 14 ounce difference, 13 ounce difference?

Josh Scherer: Changing the spoons is really hard when you have 3500 stores.

Nicole Enayati: I … It is ... 

Josh Scherer: You know what I mean? 

Nicole Enayati: But if you do the groundwork, [Josh Scherer: Mm-hmm.] anything is possible. And if it matters to you as a business owner, and if you want to see [Josh Scherer: Yeah.] your numbers to continue to go up, you will fine tune those specifics in order to have a better customer base.

Dan Pashman: I love that, Nicole. I think that's a great point. And you're right. Like the last time I was at Chipotle was a little while ago, but, like, the chicken was scooped with, like, a very flat, large spoon. 

Josh Scherer: Mm-hmm. 

Nicole Enayati: Yes.

Dan Pashman: And depending on how you take that big flat serving spoon and how deep you go into the chicken and pull it up, and if you pull it up very quickly, then a lot of pieces are going to fall off. 

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm. 

Josh Scherer: Uh-huh. 

Dan Pashman: If you pull it up slowly, you may get a gigantic mound of chicken on top. Whereas if you had ... if you had a spoon that was more like, imagine like a one cup measuring cup with a long stick on the end .

Nicole Enayati: More ergonomic, yes. 

Dan Pashman: Right, you would know that, okay, fill it to the top, it will stay in there, and that is one cup of chicken, and that is the correct portion size. 

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: I think you're onto something.

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: All right, moving on. It's time for a special segment in the Salad Spinner episode that we're calling Food Court. Let's spin the spinner! 

[SALAD SPINNER SOUNDS EFFECT] 

Dan Pashman: Lots of legal drama in the world of food that we need to cover, you two. First up, we have a woman suing Cold Stone Creamery over their pistachio ice cream flavor, because it turns out there were no actual pistachios in it.

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS] 

Nicole Enayati: Mmm.

Dan Pashman: A New York federal judge has allowed a class action lawsuit against Cold Stone Creamery to proceed. Cold Stone's parent company argues that ingredient lists are available online, so you could have looked it up online, and you would know. They're not hiding the information, they say. Look it up online, we'll tell you there's no actual pistachios in it. They say no store signage falsely claims specific ingredients, but they're calling it pistachio ice cream. So when you hear that an ice cream is called pistachio ice cream, is it reasonable to expect that it will have actual pistachios in it? Nicole, where do you stand?

Nicole Enayati: Well, I was always raised with the idea that the violent green pistachio ice cream that you get from the store that doesn't always have pistachios in it, always had that flavoring and that was the first thing. It was that big jug of green stuff. Now, the reason why I'm assuming Cold Stone does not put pistachio nuts is I believe all of their bases are just plain, right? There's no ice creams that you can get there that have additional little, let's say, little tidbits and little bites. 

Dan Pashman: Because the whole idea of Cold Stone is that, like, you're going to add the bits and pieces [Nicole Enayati: Exactly.] and they're going to chop it in for you and all that.

Nicole Enayati: Exactly. So why would they add pistachio bits to the ice cream if it's already flavored with pistachio flavoring? When you get strawberry ice cream, are there pieces of strawberry in the ice cream? Probably not all the time? But am I gonna ... 

Dan Pashman: I mean not pieces, but there may be strawberries.

Nicole Enayati: Maybe?

Dan Pashman: Like there may have been strawberries involved, like maybe they were pureed, they may not be chunks. But if you order [Nicole Enayati: Come on.] strawberry ice cream ... 

Nicole Enayati: Uh-huh?

Dan Pashman: I mean, do you have a right to think that actual strawberries have been in there?

Josh Scherer: No. 

Dan Pashman: You know?

Nicole Enayati: I think if you're at — no! No! If you're at Cold Stone ... If you're getting ice cream from Great Value, no, there's — you think there are real strawberry pieces in there? You're kidding me. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Nicole Enayati: Cold Stone, it's a blank slate. Your ice cream is just its base and then you add whatever the heck you want in there.

Josh Scherer: Dan, you mentioned that you enjoy a Slurpee from time to time. How many blue raspberries do you think ended up in that Blue Raspberry Slurpee?

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Josh Scherer: A fruit that does not exist.

Dan Pashman: It's true. Yeah. 

Josh Scherer: These words, they function as adjectives, right? 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah.

Josh Scherer: This is an ice cream that has been inspired by the pistachio's existence, there may or may not actually be any pistachios in there. I think this person's looking for a settlement. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I'm torn because I don't see this quite as a blue raspberry situation. Like, when you buy a Slurpee, you understand that the actual fruits or whatever aren't — it's not real fruits in there. Whereas like, there are some ice cream places where I would expect there to be actual pistachios involved in the pistachio ice cream. So as a consumer, is it up to me to just figure out like, oh, this is a more upscale place, so now I do have a right to expect real pistachios? Or this is a more mass market chain place, so I don't have a right to expect it? If they call it pistachio, should there be pistachios in there? Why shouldn't just all the companies be as straightforward as possible about what's in the ice cream?

Josh Scherer: Well, so that's where I think Cold Stone is dead on right when they're talking about like our ingredients are all available [Nicole Enayati: Listed, yeah.] and public knowledge, which like, that's a thing that pretty much everybody has to have for allergen information. So, to me, like you have the available info, it's similar with truffle fries, right?

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm. 

Josh Scherer: If you go to a place that’s selling truffle fries for, you know, $6, you probably don't expect there's any real truffle in there. It's some weird polyphenol acetate, whatever the hell chemical that vaguely resembles truffles. 

Nicole Enayati: Right. 

Josh Scherer: Ditto for the artificial pistachio flavor. I don’t think if you are a consumer at Cold Stone you have a right to pistachios.

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: All right, one more article that we gotta cover, especially because the two of you host a podcast called A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. I have long been on record agreeing with you that a hot dog is a sandwich. There's another story in the news relating to the legal definition of a sandwich. In Fort Wayne, Indiana, a judge ruled that tacos are Mexican style sandwiches. This is a decision stemming from a local zoning issue. Martin Quintana, a restaurateur, sought to open Famous Taco in a strip mall, but had agreed to a commitment that he was going to sell sandwiches. So the strip mall owner said, I need a sandwich shop in here. That's going to bring in business. He got this guy who said, yep, I'll sell sandwiches. And then he opened a taco place or wanted to open a taco place. 

Nicole Enayati: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And he's saying tacos can be considered sandwiches. And a judge ruled in favor of Martin Quintana said that tacos and burritos are indeed "Mexican style sandwiches". Now, this ruling contrasts with a 2006 Massachusetts decision, where a judge ruled that tacos were not sandwiches. And that was a different situation. That allowed a taco chain to bypass a sandwich exclusivity clause. And this is common in strip malls or areas where multiple restaurants are all leasing space from the same landlord. That the lease will say, okay, you can open a sandwich shop, but you can't sell muffins because there's a bakery. And it's to prevent overlap and competition. So these kinds of clauses are very common. So these two taco places were on different sides of the rule: One of them was required to sell sandwiches, one was prohibited. But in either case, it's the same legal question, which is: Are tacos sandwiches?

Nicole Enayati: You know what a Mexican sandwich is? A cemita, [LAUGHS] ... 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Nicole Enayati: A pambazo, and a torta. Those are Mexican sandwiches. A taco is its own unique thing. A burrito is its own unique thing. And I think lumping it in with sandwiches discredits the years and years of chefs that have made delicious tacos and burritos just for the sake of codifying it in United States law.

Josh Scherer: So this wasn't codifying it in United States law. What this was is setting a precedent in a very specific jurisdiction. And I will say, this is merely a case of a judge making the right call for the sake of making the right call. 

Nicole Enayati: Hmm. 

Josh Scherer: And if he has to call a taco, a Mexican style sandwich, what basically happened is Quintana — I read the entire case filing top to bottom. 

Nicole Enayati: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Josh Scherer: Because I'm always dubious in these headlines, right? 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah. 

Josh Scherer: So what basically happened is this dude was opening a restaurant. And he had some sort of falling out with the people who owned the strip mall and they were trying to kick him out.

Nicole Enayati: Hmm. 

Josh Scherer: And so they tried to say, ah, he agreed to sell sandwiches. He's selling tacos. And then the judge sees this and goes like, this is, like, vexatious litigation. 

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm. 

Josh Scherer: You guys are doing this in bad faith. The judge absolutely made the right call.

Nicole Enayati: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: But as a general principle, setting aside the details of this case, Josh, you don't think that tacos are sandwiches?

Josh Scherer: Hell no. 

Nicole Enayati: No. 

Josh Scherer: The tortillas predate leavened bread by about 10,000 years.

Dan Pashman: Well, all right, but I mean, remember the KFC Double Down? 

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS] Yeah.

Dan Pashman: It was two fried chicken breasts with, like, a bacon and cheese in the middle? 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Is that ... Was that a sandwich?

Josh Scherer: Absolutely not. 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah ... 

Josh Scherer: That's a Cordon Bleu.

Nicole Enayati: Are you kidding me? It's a sandwich?

Josh Scherer: It's a sandwich! Of course. It's a sandwich! It's just fried chicken with mayonnaise.

Nicole Enayati: It's a trademark sandwich! It's a sandwich with the little "R" in the circle!

Josh Scherer: What? I don't — you can call something a sandwich, but it doesn't mean it's like a sandwich. 

Nicole Enayati: That's a sandwich with chicken breasts as buns!

Josh Scherer: It's not a Socratic form sandwich. What do you mean the chicken breast has buns? I use lettuce as buns in my Caesar salad and now it's a sandwich?

Nicole Enayati: Yeah, it's protein style.

Josh Scherer: No, get the hell out of here. 

Nicole Enayati: It's protein style, your sandwich. 

Josh Scherer: That's not a sandwich either. That's called a hand salad.

Nicole Enayati: Oh my god, nobody says hand salad!

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Josh Scherer: I say hand salad.

Dan Pashman: I believe strongly that a sandwich really — anything that has two discrete food items sandwiching some kind of fillings such that you can pick it up without your hands touching the fillings is a sandwich. So that's like — so an Oreo, an Oreo cookie is a sandwich.

Nicole Enayati: Yeah, it is. 

Dan Pashman: An ice cream sandwich is a sandwich. 

Nicole Enayati: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: I think a hot dog is a sandwich because I ... I think that the hinged bun, to me, counts as two discrete food items, even though it's technically one, because if you severed the hinge, it wouldn't fundamentally alter the structure. 

Josh Scherer: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: You could still have the hot dog on the bun. 

Nicole Enayati: Right. 

Dan Pashman: Whereas with a taco, if you were to slice down the spine of the taco, you have destroyed the taco. Like, it ceases to exist.

Nicole Enayati: Exactly.

Dan Pashman: Therefore, it's not two discrete food items sandwiching fillings, therefore it's not a sandwich.

Josh Scherer: I think the bread matters. I think a leavened bread ... 

Dan Pashman: So you can't make a sandwich with matzah now, Josh? 

Josh Scherer: Absolutely not. No, that's not a sandwich.

Nicole Enayati: Oh my god, it's the first sandwich.

Josh Scherer: I don't believe it's a sandwich. I grew up eating peanut butter and jelly on matzah.

Nicole Enayati: Ugh. 

Dan Pashman: If you put peanut butter and jelly in the middle of two pieces of matzah, and pick it up with your hand, that's not a sandwich?

Nicole Enayati: Of course, it's a sand ...

Josh Scherer: It’s not a sandwich! Should've waited for the bread to rise before you fled. Then it would have been a sandwich.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Nicole Enayati: Rabbi Hillel ... Rabbi Hillel made the first recorded sandwich and it was matzo ... 

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS] I've heard that. 

Nicole Enayati: With charoset, [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] and I stand by that more than any of these other rulings, okay? 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Nicole and Josh, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we're gonna have more topics to cover, including the Kelce brothers have a cereal mix coming out on the market, and we're gonna do a taste test. We'll cover all that and much more. Stick around.

MUSIC

+++ BREAK +++

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. And hey, make sure you check out last week on the show when I talk with Jameela Jamil, star of NBC’s The Good Place and host of the podcast I Weigh. Jameela spent a lot of her youth concerned with body image, but when she ended up in the hospital after a car accident, something changed:

CLIP (JAMEELA JAMIL): It sort of just took me out of the hellish life I was in. No one was nitpicking me about my weight or my size and everyone was bringing me ice cream and I was just watching Friends in bed and I didn't have to go to school where I was being bullied and I didn't really have to engage with anyone. Getting hit by that car definitely saved my life. I would have died of anorexia if that hadn’t happened to me.

Dan Pashman: Jameela’s experiences with disordered eating and the British tabloids later led to her becoming an activist, in addition to an actor and comedian. We talk about that and we discuss rules for proper biscuit dunking and an incident involving stolen steaks. It’s a great conversation, and it’s in your feed right now. Check it out. 

Dan Pashman: All right, let's get back into it, and I'm joined once again by the co-host of the Mythical Kitchen podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich, Nicole Enayati and Josh Scherer. Hey, Nicole and Josh. 

Nicole Enayati: Hey!

Josh Scherer: Hey! 

Dan Pashman: We’ve got a bunch more stories to cover, so let’s spin that salad spinner! 

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT] 

Dan Pashman: All right, the Bliss Caribbean Restaurant in St. Louis County, Missouri opened with an age policy requiring female patrons to be at least 30 and male patrons 35, because men are less mature. 

Nicole Enayati: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: The goal was to create a mature, relaxed environment inspired by the owner's child-free Caribbean vacations. Now the policy has drawn attention on social media, it's attracted some crowds, but apparently it raises legal concerns. Experts suggest it might violate the Missouri Human Rights Act, which I'm sure this is exactly what the crafters of that act had in mind when they were [JOSH SCHERER LAUGHS] working on it [LAUGHS] due to its different age requirements for men and women. So they're concerned about the difference between men and women, not the fact that there is an age requirement. As two people who are now in your 30s yourselves, what do you think of a restaurant that doesn't allow anyone under 30 in?

Josh Scherer: I've been to one! 

Dan Pashman: Oh, really?

Josh Scherer: I went to one. I went to a bar in New Orleans. There was a sign that said no one under 30 allowed and Julia had turned 30, like, five days before. 

Nicole Enayati: [GASPS] 

Josh Scherer: I was like, babe, we gotta celebrate. It's like you're 21st all over again. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Josh Scherer: And we went in and it was just a bunch of, like, mostly 40 to 50 year olds dancing to old school R&B and we made friends and we had a lovely time. It would not be my scene entirely, [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] but justice for the 34-year-old men who really want coconut shrimp and jerk chicken and can't get it.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] So did Julia, your fiancée, did she do 30 shots?

Josh Scherer: She certainly did not. I, uh … 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Hey, like a twenty-first birthday.

Josh Scherer: No, when you turn 30, it's like you drink two mixed drinks and then go, ooh, I should drink water right now. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Josh Scherer: That’s the 30th birthday celebration.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So Nicole, what are your thoughts on the fact that it's different age limits for men and women? 35 for a man to get in, 30 for a woman to get in.

Nicole Enayati: I hate it all. I hate every single second of this story. I hate it. [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] Can I tell you why? So I, when I was, like, 20-years-old, I would just drive to, like, different parts of L.A. and I would, like, eat foods that I've never heard of before. And to think that like there's a Caribbean restaurant that probably has really delicious food, I couldn't get in just because my ID had the wrong number, even though I can vote and I can serve my country? 

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS]

Nicole Enayati: I can't eat, like, coconut shrimp? It's very exacerbating for me. It is unfair and I — it is unconstitutional and I don't ... and I don't like it and I never wanna step foot in that place again.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Right. 

Nicole Enayati: It's wiggity whack and I don't like it.

Dan Pashman: All right! Let's spin the spinner! 

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT] 

Dan Pashman: 7-Eleven. Now, I love a slurpee. Okay? But I don't usually go for the entrees, I'll be honest with you.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: That being said, nearly twenty years after a Japanese conglomerate purchased 7-Eleven, the convenience store chain is shifting its strategy in America. Now this conglomerate has long had a reputation in Japan for having really great food in their convenience stores, high quality snacks and meals like onigiri, sushi, egg salad sandwiches, fresh pastries, and a whole bunch of stuff that's probably gonna be a lot better than those hot dogs that have been on the rotating metal thing in 7-Eleven since the time we were kids. All right? Anyways, so now the American 7-Elevens are gonna bring some of these same menu items from Japan and focus more on food sales across America. So, Nicole, what's your take here? How excited should we be that they're gonna be bringing some of these menu items to American 7-Elevens?

Nicole Enayati: I went to Japan in May, and I would go to their konbinis and there was 7-Eleven, Lawson, and Family Mart, I believe are the three. Every single morning, without fail, I had an egg salad sando. It was like eating an egg flavored cloud, and it was the best single carbohydrate I ate on my whole trip and I had the best time ever and I can't wait for it to come to the U.S. 

Dan Pashman: Tell me more. What makes these things so good?

Nicole Enayati: Oh my gosh. You can eat it in like three bites, and then you’re never satisfied though. It’s like you just sit there and you’re like, did I just eat something? It’s a crazy ephemeral experience.

Dan Pashman: Is it kewpie mayo? Are they using kewpie mayo?

Nicole Enayati: I think they’re using kewpie mayo, yeah. I think there’s MSG, a little bit of salt, a little bit of white pepper, and then just, like, egg. Just soft, gorgeous, delicious mashed eggs. I don’t know what they do with the bread there, the milk bread? It is fricking unbelievable. 

Dan Pashman: Josh, why don’t you spin the spinner. Go ahead, spin that salad spinner!

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT] 

Dan Pashman: All right, so big news in the world of cereal. I love a bowl of cereal. So it was recently announced that the Kelce Brothers are teaming up with General Mills to come up with their own cereal mix. The Kelce Brothers mix is a combination of Reese's Puffs, Cinnamon Toast Crunch, and Lucky Charms, and Nicole, Josh, and I are now going to taste test this. It's not in stores yet, but we have bought the individual components. We're gonna pour them into a bowl, and we're gonna try. Now, before we do that, Nicole, you go first, like, just, what's your take going in? What are your expectations? How do you feel about this concept?

Nicole Enayati: I don't like this idea, [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] because I don't think all of these flavors make sense. Out of all of these cereals, my favorite is Reese's Puffs because they had the best theme song ... "Reese’s Puffs, Reese’s Puffs ... " 

Josh Scherer: Yeah!

Nicole Enayati: And yeah, I don't like it, Kelce brothers. Sorry.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Josh?

Josh Scherer: First of all, go birds, Jason Kelce, alum of Last Meals. He can do nothing wrong. 

[LAUGHING] 

Josh Scherer: Uh, I love this idea, all these flavors. It's all going to make sense in your mouth, right? Like you're not going to be like, [Nicole Enayati: I don't think so.] the peanut butter and cinnamon are not mixing properly with the rainbow marshmallows. No. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Josh Scherer: It's all a bunch of delicious, crunchy sugar. That's fun. Also, cereal mixing — Honey Bunches of Oats is probably my favorite cereal [Nicole Enayati: Oh yeah.] on the market. That is a mix of four different cereals from, I believe, Post is Honey Bunches of Oats. 

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm. 

Josh Scherer: And they just combined them all into one box, like, 40 years ago. We forgot that it's even a mix. Maybe 30 years from now we'll see this on shelves and be nonplussed.

Dan Pashman: That's amazing trivia. I did not know that. I, too, am a huge fan of cereal mixing. I've been obsessed lately with the Cinnamon Toast Crunch Tres Leches flavor ... 

Josh Scherer and Nicole Enayati: Mmm. 

Dan Pashman: Which I find you mix that with muesli and then add a sprinkling of sea salt, and it's insane. 

Nicole Enayati: [GASPS] 

Dan Pashman: But I share your skepticism of this particular combination, Nicole.

Nicole Enayati: I mean, I love geriatric cereals, so this is all very disgusting to me. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Nicole Enayati: I love ... I love Weetabix and Grape Nuts, so this stuff is really giving me pause.

Dan Pashman: We don't know what the ratio of the three cereals in the Kelce mix is going to be. 

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: So I think we should assume it's going to be equal parts.

Josh Scherer: Negroni. This is a Negroni. It's a one, one, one cocktail.

Dan Pashman: Right. Now I have ... I actually have a half cup measuring spoon, so I'm going to actually measure out ... 

Nicole Enayati: They should learn how to do that at Chipotle.

Josh Scherer: [LAUGHS] I was gonna say, I’m going to do the Chipotle thing and just ... [LAUGHING] oops ... shaking it.

[POURING CEREAL INTO A BOWL]

Nicole Enayati: Can you hand me that milk?

Dan Pashman: I'm going to give a little toss. 

Josh Scherer: Fill me up. 

Dan Pashman: Now it should be a gentle toss. If you toss it too much, all the big pieces will sink to the bottom because of a scientific principle known as granular convection, also known as the Brazil nut effect. Big pieces sink to the bottom.

Nicole Enayati: Hmm. 

Josh Scherer: [GASPS] Oh, that's why they're all there!

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: All right, let's do it. We're going in.

[ALL EATING CEREAL]

Nicole Enayati: That's really good.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Josh Scherer: If I'm like putting on my cereal sommelier hat, I was the one saying it's all going to make sense in your mouth. And again, I'm going to crush this entire bowl. This is a perfect dessert. However, I am getting bumped. I'm getting a little dominated by the chocolate and peanut butter flavor. I love the chemical sting of the marshmallows. [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] That's one of my favorite things. I love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. I think cinnamon is the most underrated flavor. It's my favorite dessert flavor of all time. And then the peanut butter and chocolate come in and I'm like, I don't know that you deserve to be here. What I would love is — I know this is Kellogg, so it wouldn't work, but like a Frosted Flake, right? 

Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm. 

Josh Scherer: Like I would love something that adds just another textural component. Right? Something that to me, like, Frosted Flakes, Corn Flakes, are the best texture of any cereal ... 

Nicole Enayati: Yeah. 

Josh Scherer: And I think that would help this. But to me, the Reese's Puffs are — it's throwing me.

Nicole Enayati: It is, it is. 

Josh Scherer: More than I thought. 

Nicole Enayati: I agree with you 100 percent. I think — here me out, what if it was Cinnamon Toast Crunch, Reese's Puffs, and another cinnamony chocolatey ... What if it was like Cocoa Pebbles or something like that?

Josh Scherer: I don't want the chocolate. Their chocolate dominates for me.

Dan Pashman: I think you're right that the Reese's Puffs are dominating a bit, but I think that actually the marshmallows are what's throwing me off.

Nicole Enayati: Correct.

Josh Scherer: That's the best part.

Dan Pashman: No, I think that — there are just, like, these marshmallows are designed not to play well with other flavors.

Nicole Enayati: You are correct.

Josh Scherer: I'm looking up General Mills cereals and trying to think what I would rather have in there instead of Reese's Puffs ... A Cookie Crisp? You throw a cookie? You throw a Golden Graham in there?

Nicole Enayati: Instead of a ... 

Dan Pashman: Golden grahams maybe. Cookie Crisp is too hard, it will cut the roof of your mouth, [ALL AGREE] which is a medical condition that I call Cap’N Crunch's Complaint.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Okay, Kelce brother's aside, I have a quick game I want to play with the two of you because I also love combining different cereals and I put some thought into this, a lot thought, some might say — I'm gonna say a combination of cereals and I want you to tell me what dessert I am replicating with this combination of cereals. So think about the flavors and textures of the cereal combo, all right, tie all together — what classic dessert does it add up to? You ready? 

Nicole Enayati: Let's do it.

Josh Scherer: Absolutely.

Dan Pashman: Count Chocula, or Chocolate Lucky Charms, plus Golden Grahams.

Josh Scherer: Well, that's a s'more right there.

Nicole Enayati: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: That's right. That one's — that's easy. We're starting easy. Okay? Apple Jacks, plus Cinnamon Toast Crunch, plus Cracklin’ Oat Bran.

Nicole Enayati: Um, that's an Apple Crisp!

Dan Pashman: Very good, Nicole. 

Nicole Enayati: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: And thank you for not saying apple pie, because that Cracklin’ Oat Bran, that gives you the crisp topping vibes.

Nicole Enayati: You know ... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, you did your research.

Dan Pashman: Oh yeah, I put a lot of thought into this. All right, one more for you. Frosted Mini Wheats, plus Honey Bunches of Oats, plus a nutty granola.

Josh Scherer: Are we talking baklava here?

Dan Pashman: Yes!

Josh Scherer: Let's go! 

Dan Pashman: Baklava! 

Nicole Enayati: Oh my gosh!

Josh Scherer: The shreddiness of the, well not phyllo, but it'd be like a kataifi dough.

Nicole Enayati: Kataif. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh Scherer: You know?

Dan Pashman: Yes! You would get the phyllo, you would get the honey, you would get — yeah, I'm telling you, baklava cereal. That's where this needs to go.

Josh Scherer: God, we're all such food nerds, it's incredible.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Nicole Enayati: God, I was about to say cereal savants, it's crazy.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All right, well that is it for our salad spinner episode. This has been a blast. Great to chat with both of you. Josh Scherer is the host of Last Meals on the Mythical Kitchen YouTube channel, and just released The Mythical Cookbook. Josh, tell folks just a little bit about The Mythical Cookbook.

Josh Scherer: Oh my gosh, The Mythical Cookbook. It's got all the biggest, baddest, greatest, craziest recipes that we've written over five years that we've been here and like 10 years on the show. Orange chicken, parmesan grilled cheese ramen, crazy stuff that we never thought would make it into a book. And now it has, and you can cook from it. We're really proud of the work [Nicole Enayati: Mm-hmm.] that we put in there.

Dan Pashman: It is phenomenal. Check out The Mythical Cookbook, wherever books are sold. And you can find Nicole Enayati on the Mythical YouTube channel and her cookbook Bake Up is out now. Check out Bake Up. Nicole, tell folks a bit about Bake Up.

Nicole Enayati: Yeah. So it's a kid's baking book and it's supposed to grow with your child as well. So you start with level one and you get all the way to level four and it's quite fun. Has a lot of cute recipes that are easy to follow and I'm sure whoever picks up the book will learn a lot too.

Dan Pashman: I love it. All right. So check out those books wherever books are sold. And of course, you can find both Josh and Nicole on their podcast, A Hot Dog is a Sandwich. Thank you so much, Josh and Nicole. 

Josh Scherer: Dan, you're a legend, man. Thank you.

Nicole Enayati: Thank you, Dan.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, I’m talking with Beatrice Ojakangas, a living legend of Minnesotan food and also the inventor of the pizza roll. Oh man, you’re gonna love her. It's a great chat, so many good stories. That one’s next week.

Dan Pashman: While you’re waiting for that one, check out last week’s interview with actor, comedian, and activist Jameela Jamil. That one's up now wherever you got this one.

Dan Pashman: And hey, if you're new to our podcast, please take a quick second and favorite our show in your podcasting app of choice. Go to our show page, maybe it's the button that's a plus or a favorite or a heart or a subscribe or a like, whatever it is in your app. Please do it right now and you can hang out with us in the future. You'll never miss an episode. Thank you.

Dan Pashman: Hey, one more quick thing to mention. Did you know that you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yeah, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, and you can listen to over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era. Plus, live sports coverage — you don't get that all over the podcast apps. There's interviews with A-list stars and a lot more. It’s everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now you can get the SiriusXM for free for three months, just for Sporkful listeners. Sign up now by going to SiriusXM.com/Sporkful. That's SiriusXM.com/Sporkful.