Dan Pashman: Hey, it's Sporkful senior producer, Andres O'Hara. Hey, Andres.

Andres O'Hara: Hey. How are you doing?

Dan Pashman: I'm doing well. Now you're here, hanging out with us in the studio. If it's the summertime and you're helping to set up an episode, I feel like that can only mean one thing. It's got to be time for our annual game show "2 Chefs and a Lie". 

Andres O'Hara: Our annual summer tradition, I love it.

Dan Pashman: And I’m not the host of this game, I am a contestant, just like all you listeners. We're gonna play along together, okay? Meanwhile, you, Andres, you're going to be the MC of this extravaganza.

Andres O'Hara: That's right. I'm really excited. 

Dan Pashman: So tell folks how it works.

Andres O'Hara: So you're going to interview three people. You know nothing about any of them coming in. Two of them are real chefs, and one is pretending to be a chef. And you can ask them each five questions. And at the end, you have to guess which ones are the chefs and which one is the liar.

Dan Pashman: All right, it's time to play "2 Chefs and A Lie".

Andres O'Hara: Cue the music.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And today, we're once again playing "2 Chefs and A Lie". This is our fourth time playing. Now the first two times I failed to guess the liar. But last year, I got it right. Let's see if I can start a streak this year. Andres, now there are a few more rules we got to go over. 

Andres O'Hara: Yeah. Each of your chefs will give you a quick intro. Then you'll ask them five questions. Now you can't use Google. You can't use your phones. And that goes for the folks at home playing along who want to try to guess who the liar is. And Dan, just like the listeners of this podcast, you cannot see the contestants here. They all have their Zoom videos turned off and you're just going to go based on their voices.

Dan Pashman: That's right. So I don't have any more information than listeners have.

Andres O'Hara: That's right. But before we start, normally the liar is an actor or an improv comedian. But for this year's game, we have a twist — everyone here is a chef. The only difference is that one of them has created a whole new fake persona, with a fake story and a fake restaurant. So everything that person tells you is a lie.

Dan Pashman: All right. This is like 2.0 here. This is more advanced.

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. It's a little more advanced. How does that change up your strategy?

Dan Pashman: Well, in the first couple years, my strategy was very based in trying to just sort of tell who was lying by, like, let's say, asking a super detailed question about the restaurant, like what's the address or whatever, and, and seeing if they hesitate. But what I learned from that strategy of, like, trying to trip people up and catch them in a lie was that, you know, some of the chefs we're interviewing, if I just ask a question kind of out of nowhere, they may get caught off guard or they may be a little bit nervous. Last year, I changed up my strategy a bit, and it was more about, like, trying to find inconsistencies in the story.

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: It's going to be harder to find that because I'm sure this year's liar is going to be very good. I think I'm going to try for a hybrid strategy of the two this year — still, good focus on plausibility of the story, but also some focus on just sort of believability of the delivery.

MUSIC

Andres O'Hara: Okay, Dan, let's meet our first chef. That's Sam Aaronson. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. I have index cards this year, Andres. Each person is going to get their own index card.

Andres O'Hara: All right. It's not the SATs, Dan. You'll be fine.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS] All right. So, Sam, please introduce yourself.

Sam Aaronson: Hey, Dan, how are you? My name is Sam Aaronson. My restaurant is located in downtown Detroit at the Siren Hotel. It's a small plates tasting menu restaurant. We've only got 11 seats. I am the executive chef and also the owner. And I work there every single day. I do all the prep with my sous chef. There's only two of us in the kitchen, and we plate and run all the food, and we handle all the wine service.

Dan Pashman: All right, this first one doesn't count as a question. It's just a point of clarification.

Andres O'Hara: Oh god. Here we go. 

Dan Pashman: I want to make sure I heard you ... [LAUGHS] 

Andres O'Hara: Here we go. Here we go.

Dan Pashman: I want to make sure I heard said — you said the Siren Hotel, like S-I-R-E-N?

Sam Aaronson: Correct. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Sam Aaronson:  Yeah. The restaurant is called York Street, but it is located inside of The Siren Hotel.

Andres O'Hara: Sam, don't give them any more information! 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Andres O'Hara: Dan, question one.

Dan Pashman: All right. What was on the menu last night, Sam?

Sam Aaronson: Well, we change the menu every single week, and it's a tasting menu. So there are 13 dishes on the menu right now. I would say one of our marquee items that stays on the menu or resurfaces a lot on the menu is our take on a Coney dog. So a Coney dog is this iconic Michigan dish. It's served at a lot of diners in a very cheap, efficient way. So it's actually considered kind of an everyman type of dish. But the way that we do it is we make the hot dog ourselves. We do pickled mustard seeds. And then there's a foam on top, and then we make an actual croissant dough that we put the hot dog inside of. And that is one of the entree courses within the tasting menu.

Andres O'Hara: Question two.

Dan Pashman: Question two. Where were you cooking before you opened this restaurant?

Sam Aaronson: Well, previously I worked for Michael Simon at Roast, and then I've been bouncing around doing some pop-ups of my own. So I did a pop-up at this place called Frame Bar. And then I was in Chicago for a little while, and I did a stage at Alinea for one month. And then I went to New York and did a stage at Empellon. And then I came back and started doing R&D to develop my concept in Detroit.

Dan Pashman: I feel like every one of Sam's answers simultaneously gives me more reason to believe him and more reason to doubt him. 

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: And also, as Andres told me, all of the people have culinary experience. So like, anybody can name check Alinea. But then again, maybe he really did stage there. Stage ...

Sam Aaronson: Yeah?

Dan Pashman: It's almost kind of like a fancy French word for like an internship cooking in a restaurant.

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: Sam, tell me three more things that are on your menu right now.

Sam Aaronson: Sure. So  you know the produce is actually incredible in Michigan. So, we have a dish right now that is a sous-vide venison dish. And it comes with a blueberry compote on it. Blueberries are ubiquitous in Michigan. They grow on the west side of the state. And so we actually pick them and pickle them, and then we make a compote from that. And then another dish that we have is this dessert that I'm really proud of. It's a deconstructed pretzel Jell-O. We make a sweet pretzel, and then we bake it. We grind it in the Vitamix, so it kind of turns to a dust, and then, we do our own sort of version of a raspberry compote, and then we do it with a whipped meringue over the top. Another one that we do right now is we do a birria taco, but we do it — there's no meat in it. So it's actually a carrot birria taco. So we cook carrots in the same style that you would as a birria taco, and then we make an almond flour tortilla.

Dan Pashman: Next question, Sam. What is the cherry capital of the world?

Sam Aaronson: The cherry capital of the world?

Dan Pashman: Mm-hmm.

Sam Aaronson: It's in Holland, Michigan.

Dan Pashman: I know Traverse City is the cherry capital of the world. That's where they have the Cherry Festival and crown The Cherry Queen. You know, I feel like someone who was really in the food scene in Michigan would probably have known about Traverse City being the cherry capital of the world.

Sam Aaronson: That's where the Cherry Festival is. But they're not actually primarily grown in Traverse City. It's just because Traverse City is the tourist destination where they hold it.

Dan Pashman: Oh! 

Andres O'Hara: [WHISTLES] 

Dan Pashman: So Holland is where they're grown. But Traverse City sort of has the moniker of the cherry capital of the world. You're telling me they're a fraud? Are you calling on Traverse City here, Sam? This is a sidebar, Andres.

Andres O'Hara: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: That doesn't count. [LAUGHS]

Andres O'Hara: Yeah, right. 

Dan Pashman: This doesn't count as one of the questions.

Andres O'Hara: Sure.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Now I just want to fight about what city is the cherry Capital of the world. 

[LAUGHING] 

Sam Aaronson: They're not grown in Traverse City. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Sam Aaronson: They're actually all grown on the western side of the state in primarily Holland and Saugatuck and South Haven. 

Dan Pashman: Isn't Traverse City on the western side of the state? It's in the northwest.

Sam Aaronson: No, Traverse City is in the far north. It's just south of Mackinac Island. 

Andres O'Hara: All right. All right. If this was too geographists and a lie ....

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]

Andres O'Hara: All right, that would be fine. But we're not gonna quiz him on the map. 

Dan Pashman: How many ... How many questions have I asked, Andres.

Andres O'Hara: You have four questions. You have one question left. 

Dan Pashman: Okay, okay.

Sam Aaronson: He's asked nine questions. 

Andres O'Hara: Yeah, I know! I know! He absolutely has. Unbelievable.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] All right, all right. So your restaurant sounds like a lot of fun, if it exists, Sam. I like the sort of, like, high brow, low brow combo of sort of like taking classic Michigan foods and putting twists on them. It's very hard for me to tell exactly how believable that all that is. 

Andres O'Hara: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Like it sounds believable, but it also sounds like if I was going to make up a high end restaurant, like this sort of seems like the fun way to go. All right, final question. Describe what your restaurant looks like. Describe the decor to me.

Sam Aaronson: So it's at the back of the lobby of the hotel. So you have to walk through the couch area and the check-in desk. And then when you enter in, it's basically one long rectangle. And it's all bar seats. So the entire bar and all of the high top stools are made out of wood. And then we have an open kitchen behind that. So we have a six-burner range. We have a small deep fryer. We have a rationale, a dehydrator. And off to the left side, when you enter, there's the bathroom. And then right behind the bathroom is a little bit of our back of house where we keep, you know, linens and things like that. And then off to the right side within ... 

Dan Pashman: Okay. All right, all right. 

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: I'm gonna cut you off. I mean, that's a pretty good detailed description. In retrospect, I wish I had asked a different final question, [Andres O'Hara: Well ...] because now I have other ideas. But that's — I guess that's how the game is played, right, Andres?

Andres O'Hara: That's how the game is played. You can save it for another contestant. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Andres O'Hara: But no going back, Dan.

Dan Pashman: All right, so Sam, at a restaurant that he claims is called York Street in a hotel that he claims is called The Siren Hotel in downtown Detroit. Thank you so much. We're going to put you on hold and move on to our next chef.

Andres O'Hara: Thanks, Sam. 

MUSIC

Andres O'Hara: Our next chef is Steven. Steven, please introduce yourself.

Steven Pursley: Hi, Dan, I'm Steven Pursley. I'm the chef owner of Menya Rui in Saint Louis, Missouri. It is a Japanese ramen shop.

Andres O'Hara: All right. Dan. I like Steven because he's not giving you much info. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Andres O'Hara: And you gotta get it from the questions.

Dan Pashman: All right. First question. Spell the name of your restaurant.

Steven Pursley: M-E-N-Y-A, space, R-U-I.

Andres O'Hara: All right, Dan. Question two.

Dan Pashman: Steven, what are your feelings on eating ramen with chopsticks versus a fork?

Steven Pursley: Chopsticks is the best way. If we have a customer that doesn't know how to use them, we do have forks, but we keep them behind, in the back of house, so they have to ask. But yeah, we would encourage most people or any person to try at least to eat ramen or other Japanese noodle dishes with chopsticks.

Dan Pashman: Third question: Why are chopsticks better?

Steven Pursley: Because you can slurp. So when you slurp, it draws up some of the soup, the aromatic oil start to get floating around. So I think as far as enjoying the flavor, the aromatics, and kind of just the overall aesthetic of how ramen is enjoyed in Japan I think chopsticks is the way to go.

Dan Pashman: All right. I just burn through three questions pretty fast ... 

Andres O'Hara: Three questions. Yeah, but I felt, like you were channeling something, Dan.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to make Steven elaborate on something that he might not have been prepared to elaborate on.

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, I see where you're going with that. And you asked him quick. You know, you did the quick line of fire.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I like that. I gotta vary the timing. So, Steven ... Steven, Steven, Steven. I'm going to assume that you have spent time traveling and perhaps even cooking in Japan to learn enough about ramen to open a restaurant. So I'm not going to ask you whether that's true. I will ask you instead, tell me in detail about one specific place you went to in Japan and how it influenced your approach to ramen.

Steven Pursley: Okay. So the last shop I trained at in Matsuyama, Japan was located in a drinking district. It was a small 20-counter seat, U-shaped, and we worked in the middle, so ten seats on each side of us. We were open from 11 A.M. to 2 A.M. And we pretty much stayed full the entire time. The way they were able to achieve that turn and burn was keeping a very streamlined menu. So compared to the other ramen shops that I had trained at, it was much smaller. So they were able to have one base stock, one base tare, which is the seasoning, and two different aromatic oils, two different noodles. So it was a very small concentrated menu. And the interesting thing about that specific place was that for the same price you could do at 200, 300, 400 or even 500 gram portion of noodles. So it was very popular with, like, college students. So just those three things made with the same seasoning sauce, the same base stock, same aromatic oils, same toppings, remixed in three different formats, sort of, keeping it short and keeping it streamlined, keeping it concentrated, kind of allowed for bigger volume. And before I opened, I had to try to decide which direction I wanted to go as far as what style of a ramen shop I wanted to be, and that was something that definitely heavily influenced my decision.

Dan Pashman: I think that if any restaurant in America had a setup where they offered the same price, but you could get twice as much food, they would be out of business in a week. 

[LAUGHING]

Steven Pursley: Yeah.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Yeah. I also like the term drinking district. It's like Broadway Street in Nashville and people are like, "Oh, don't go, don't go there." I mean, like it's only for tourists. It's like, well, it's a drinking district. Oh, that sounds so refined. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: All right, so that's four questions we've asked now, right?

Andres O'Hara: Four questions. You've got one left.

Dan Pashman: So, Stephen, Japanese cuisine is obviously vast and varied. 

Steven Pursley: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: What specifically was it about ramen that captured your enthusiasm, that made you want to open a restaurant about it?

Steven Pursley: Hmm. My mother's Japanese, so I kind of grew up going back and forth. That was definitely something I always enjoyed. My father is American and he's quite picky, but that was one thing that he would still eat. So he's not good with sushi, not good with grilled fishes, but he would definitely eat a bowl of ramen. And when I was coming out of university and I didn't really have a plan, in kind of growing up on both sides of the ocean, so to speak, I thought that not only is it something that I enjoy personally, but I think it's something that Americans can enjoy. So I think it transcends culture and it is one of those foods that can be, you know, enjoyed globally if done well.

Dan Pashman: All right, Steven, thank you very much. I mean, those answers were all very believable. 

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: The whole story sounds plausible to me and I think he has spent time in Japan and knows a lot about ramen. Now there are sort of like ramen-a-files out there who might just know a lot about ramen and not actually have a restaurant.

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS] That's right.

Dan Pashman: On the other hand, I also found that Stephen's answers were a little on the short side.

Andres O'Hara: Okay.

Dan Pashman: Which suggests to me, like, maybe he just didn't ... He didn't wanna accidentally stumble into, you know, being exposed as a liar. 

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: And so he kept his answers short, which makes me feel a little bit suspicious.

Andres O'Hara: Dan, you're hitting on kind of the two approaches to lying in general. When you're lying to somebody, do you talk a lot and try to elaborate or are you quick to shut up? Are you someone who wants to avoid speaking?

Dan Pashman: Which one’s your approach when you're lying, Andres? Just so I know for the future.

Andres O'Hara: Yeah, right. 

[LAUGHING] 

Andres O'Hara: I am the person who's quick to shut up, but my wife tells me, "No, no, no, that's totally wrong. You have to paint a picture."

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS] 

Andres O'Hara: She says, "I lie all the time and you gotta really elaborate." And that led us to wind down a different discussion. But I won't bring it up here.

Dan Pashman: Right, right ...

[LAUGHING]  

MUSIC

Andres O'Hara: Okay, Dan. Time to take a break. When we come back, we talk to our third chef. Then, Dan, you and our listeners at home have to decide who are the two chefs and who's the liar. Stick around. 

Dan Pashman: Getting exciting.

MUSIC

 

+++BREAK+++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I'm Dan Pashman. And hey, you might not think of summer time as pasta time, but let me tell you something, I got a whole chapter in my cookbook, Anything’s Pastable, all about pasta salads. It's called "Pasta Salads Redeemed: Fresh and Bright, Hold the Mayo". And I know there are a few of you out there who still haven't picked up your copy of my cookbook, so I hope you will. Of course, it's called Anything’s Pastable: 81 Inventive Pasta Recipes for Saucy People. It’s full of non-traditional pasta recipes, from a scallion oil bucatini with a runny egg on top, to kimchi carbonara, to a zucchini and feta number with zaatar toasted bread crumbs on top .... In the pasta salad chapter, we do this riff on puttanesca but it's actually not cooked tomatoes. There's raw tomatoes with fish sauce and Calabrian chiles and a lot of olives. It is so so tasty. I'm telling you, this book is gonna change your pasta game forever. So pick up your copy. Go to sporkful.com/book. And there's options there to get a signed copy of the book and a signed copy with a variety pack of my pastas. Again, that's at sporkful.com/book.

Dan Pashman: And if you want to hear our series on the making of the book, which I think will totally change how you look at cookbooks, scroll back in our feed to March and check out that series, also called Anything’s Pastable. Thanks. All right, back to the show.

MUSIC 

Andres O'Hara: All right. We are back with our game 2 Chefs And A Lie. Dan, are you ready?

Dan Pashman: I’m ready. I've been training all year for this.

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS] Okay, Dan, we are on to our third chef. Tam, please introduce yourself.

Tam Pham: Yes, my name is Tam. I'm the chef and owner at Tam Tam in downtown Miami, Florida. We are a chef driven restaurant specializing in Vietnamese drinking food.

Dan Pashman: Vietnamese drinking food, you said?

Tam Pham: Yes, sir.

Dan Pashman: Question one: Tell me about a specific pairing between food and drink in Vietnamese drinking food culture.

Tam Pham: A lot of Vietnamese drinking food, specifically, are very protein forward and they're all very salty. So something that you see a lot on your street, if you were going to go drinking, would be grilled chicken feet. And they're usually very heavily seasoned and grilled over charcoal. We don't have that, but we heavily seasoned food at Tam Tam.

Dan Pashman: I was curious to hear about a pairing of drink food and drink that go together in Vietnamese culture.

Andres O'Hara: So, Tam, what would be the drink with the chicken feet?

Tam Pham: Beers. 

Andres O'Hara: Okay. 

Tam Pham: Beers are very popular. Cocktails or liquor, spirit forward drinks are not as popular yet.

Andres O'Hara: All right.

Dan Pashman: All right, this is a tough one. But let's let's throw it at you, Tam, and see how it goes. Okay? Tell me about the history of the Vietnamese community in Miami.

Tam Pham: There is none.

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS]

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS] 

Tam Pham: There is no sizable community of Vietnamese in Miami. And honestly, I don't know how or when some of these folks came down here, but I came ... I, personally, came here for school in 2011, and I've, you know, been here since ... ever since. Sorry, if that doesn't really tell you much.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. You know, you're right, Tam. On one hand, you haven't really told me much. On the other hand, that felt like an honest answer. And so that's what I'm struggling with a little bit here now. What's the address of your restaurant?

Tam Pham: We actually have two. We have one on paper, and then we have one on Google Maps. Because sometimes in the past where we put the one on paper, the map would send our customer to a different address. So now we just go for the one on Google Maps, which is 99 North West First Street, Miami, Florida, 33128.

Dan Pashman: All right. That seems like a somewhat plausible answer, but also took you whole — took you a long time to get to the actual address. You might have been trying to make something up in the back of his head while he was telling me all this stuff about two different addresses.

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS] Could you imagine trying to vamp about Google Maps and just trying to construct numbers and letters strings together?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Right, exactly. Right, exactly! Yeah, I mean, that's — took us a long time to get to that answer, Tam. That's all I'm saying. Okay. How many questions have I asked here, Andres?

Andres O'Hara: That is three questions.

Dan Pashman: Three down, two to go. Okay. Tell me in detail about one of the dishes on your menu that you consider one of your specialties.

Tam Pham: So we have a dish called "The Lamb Wrap Situation". I know I call it a situation because it gets quite messy.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Tam Pham: It's a lettuce wrapped setup. So the main components for the dish is basically this very cute little lamb patties that's wrapped around billa leaf, and billa leaf is something that is quite hard to get. I have been able to source them from my Vietnamese auntie down the street. She has a really big vine in the back of her yard. So every time that they grow, the leaves grow big enough, I would ask her to harvest me a bag. So I would bring them back to the restaurant. The patties is consisted of shallots, lemongrass, fish sauce, garlic oil. For serving it gets paired with rice noodle, cucumber, lettuce, and a lot of herbs, just in a very typical Vietnamese fashion. And the bean curd dipping sauce.

Dan Pashman: Well, Tam, if that dish actually exists and if your restaurant actually exists, it sounds delicious and I would love to eat it sometime.

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: But I did note some hesitations in that answer. I mean, this is your specialty. I feel like it shouldn't be that hard for you to remember how it's made. Mmm. The Lamb Wrap Situation. 

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: I want to eat that. Here's my final question for you, Tam. You said that for The Lamb Wrap Situation, you have these leaves that are harvested by a Vietnamese auntie down the street. Is that right?

Tam Pham: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Down the street from your house or down the street from your restaurant?

Tam Pham: From my house. Okay.

Dan Pashman: All right. 

Andres O'Hara: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: I was hoping to catch Tam there, but he didn't fall into my trap. You know, if it was down the street from his restaurant — I mean, I'm going to assume that you don't live in the same place where your restaurant is. I guess I've used up my questions.

Andres O'Hara: Don't answer that!

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: I was thinking that if he said it was down the street from his restaurant, I would have caught him in a lie because he was saying it's a Vietnamese restaurant in Miami. 

Andres O'Hara: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: And there aren't that many Vietnamese people in Miami. And so, it wouldn't have made sense for there to be a Vietnamese auntie growing these ... growing this plant down the street from his restaurant. He would have been trapped. He would have revealed himself.

Andres O'Hara: Unless he opened the restaurant to be close to the Vietnamese auntie, who was ... 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Right, to the one Vietnamese auntie in Miami.

Andres O'Hara: Well, there you go. That's right.

Dan Pashman: Tam from the restaurant Tam Tam in Miami, if you and this restaurant exist, thank you very much.

Tam Pham: Thank you.

Andres O'Hara: All right, Dan, we've got our three "chefs" here. Sam Aaronson in Detroit, Steven Pursley in Saint Louis, Tam Pham in Miami. Dan, what are your final thoughts?

Dan Pashman: This is a tough one. Sam in Detroit, he had a lot of details. He had a lot of quick answers. Were his answers a little bit too good, a little too polished? Was this menu, as I said, like on one hand, like one one hand, I could imagine that existing in Detroit. On the other hand, I could also imagine someone being like, what would a parody of a small plates restaurant, super fancy small plates restaurant in Detroit have on its menu? And the first thing you would think was, like, a deconstructed Coney dog with foam on top.

Andres O'Hara: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Which, like, if your restaurant actually exists, Sam, like, I want to eat that. I'm super curious, but I'm just saying, like, it could go either way. Then we had Steven in Saint Louis, the Japanese ramen shop. I mean, his answers were very believable. 

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: He certainly has spent time in Japan and knows a thing or two about ramen. Does he know enough to pass for a ramen chef? His answers were a little bit short. 

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And, you know, I think that if you're just knowledgeable about it, you probably could have given all the same answers Steven just gave without actually being a chef with a ramen restaurant. 

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Then we have Tam. Tam also, you know, kind of like Stephen, had some very good details, but also some short answers. 

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: When I asked him for details on his menu and on that dish, he was — he really had some hesitations. And then he also hesitated on the address, or at least he gave us a whole long roundabout speech [ANDRES O’HARA LAUGHS] before he got there. 

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: So his story and his restaurant, his answers, everything seemed believable but very short.

Andres O'Hara: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: I had this sort of dual strategy coming in. Part of it is, like, how believable is the delivery of the answers.

Andres O'Hara: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And part of it is like how plausible does the story feel.

Andres O'Hara: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And that's what I’m struggling with right now. 

Andres O'Hara: Okay, Dan, now that you've revealed your strategy, let's have a brief musical interlude for you, Dan, and our listeners to determine who is the liar.

MUSIC

Andres O'Hara: Okay, Dan, now we're back. We've got Sam Aaronson in Detroit. Steven Pursley in Saint Louis and Tam Pham in Miami. Dan, who do you think the liar is? 

Dan Pashman: Well Andres, as between these two strategies that I have employed over the years, I think that I have to go with the strategy that led me to success. I'm going to focus more on the content of the answers, what sounds realistic and believable. And I think if I'm going to focus on the content of the answers, I think that the liar is Sam Aaronson in Detroit.

Andres O'Hara: If the liar can please reveal themselves ...  

Eli Sussman: What's up Dan? My name is Eli Sussman. I am a chef from Brooklyn. I run the Instagram account, The Sussmans.

Dan Pashman: Oh! I follow you on Instagram! So I got it right. Eli Sussman, you were playing the fake chef Sam Aaronson in Detroit.

Andres O'Hara: You won, Dan! 

Eli Sussman: You won. Yeah. You won.

Dan Pashman: Well, you're very entertaining on Instagram, Eli.

Eli Sussman: Thank you very much.

Dan Pashman: And for people who don't know it, your Instagram account is kind of like ... It's kind of like a peek into the mind of chefs, cooks, and restaurant owners. There’s a lots of memes and inside jokes about the worst and most skewerable parts of the industry.

Eli Sussman: Yeah, totally. I mean, it's primarily supposed to be for people that are in the industry, so that they can have a good laugh in the morning and we can commiserate together. So it's a lot of breaking down the horrible aspects of our job on a day to day, you know, staffing challenges, cleaning the grease trap, having equipment break on you, things like that. So, it's a lot of memes and I'd say probably, like, the most popular one is Bruce Willis when he's in the HVAC system in Die Hard and he's got the little lighter ... 

Dan Pashman: He's crawling through an air conditioning duct.

Eli Sussman: Yeah, he's covered in dirt and he's, like, has this little lighter and it's like, POV me trying to relight the fryer during service. You know?

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Right 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: If you aren't a chef and don't know much about restaurants, I think it's still a really fun follow. It will give you a window into that world that I think is very amusing. So I encourage folks to follow you, @TheSussmans. Right?

Eli Sussman: Correct. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And what's your restaurant?

Eli Sussman: It's called Gertrude's. It's in Prospect Heights. So it's a neighborhood bistro with some French influences and some Jewish influences on the menu. We've been open a year and I'm the partner and executive chef of that restaurant, and we don't serve any of that bullshit that I was telling you about earlier.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: No deconstructed Coney dog?

Eli Sussman: No. No, nothing ... Nothing like that.

Dan Pashman: So thank you so much, Eli. And, Steven Pursley, tell us in more detail, Steven, about the restaurant, where it is, what folks can expect when they go there.

Steven Pursley: I'm Stephen Pursley, chef, owner of Menya Rui in Saint Louis, Missouri. It's located in the Lindenwood Park neighborhood. It's a small 24-seat ramen shop, just like you'd find in Japan. Everything's made in-house, from the noodles to the broth to the toppings and seasonings. So yeah, come check it out.

Dan Pashman: Tam, tell folks a little bit more about Tam Tam. Where in Miami it is, what they can expect with, you know, when they go there.

Tam Pham: We are right in the heart of downtown Miami, in front of the historic courthouse. We serve Vietnamese drinking food, very much protein and vegetable forward. We also have grilled quail, that is very spicy. Great for drinking as well. We have an amazing wine list curated by my husband, who is also my business partner. And we have a tiny little secret in the bathroom that you would have to come and see. I would be — I would not be able to tell you what it is.

Dan Pashman: Oh? Well, that's what we call in the business a tease, Tam.

Andres O'Hara: That's a good tease.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Thank you all so much for joining us.

MUSIC

Andres O'Hara: All right, Dan, so you won this game. How are you feeling that you — do you feel vindicated?

Dan Pashman: I mean, I feel like I've settled on a better strategy, and I think, you know, you're going to have to up your game for next year, Andres. I think we should be talking about your strategy. 

Andres O'Hara: Oh, my! Oh, my. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: I mean, you know, now I'm getting a little cocky. I've won two in a row.

Andres O'Hara: And you lost two in a row.

Dan Pashman: Right. 

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: But the other two are more recent.

Andres O'Hara: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. No, it's great. You're improving.

Dan Pashman: So I — you know, I don't want you to divulge what it's going to be, but I think that maybe next year, you know, you're going to have to up your game, because my new strategy has been working pretty well for me these last couple of years.

Andres O'Hara: Next time you suspect someone is lying to you and they're giving you a lot of details and explanations and painting a real picture, and ... 

Dan Pashman: I'm going to accuse them of lying.

Andres O'Hara: That's right, I agree.

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, I chat with Khushbu Shah and Edy Massih. Khushbu was the youngest ever restaurant editor at Food and Wine Magazine, and Edy is the owner of the popular Lebanese deli Edy’s Grocer in Brooklyn. And they are both first time cookbook authors. They joined me live onstage at Cookbook Fest in Napa, and we talked about the ups and downs of writing your first cookbook, what they learned about the process, and themselves. If you liked my Anything's Pastable cookbook series, I think you are really going to love this conversation. That’s next week. 

Dan Pashman: In the meantime, if you’re looking for more Sporkful episodes to listen to, we just ran a two-part series about The Donut King of California. A man named Ted Ngoy who fled genocide in Cambodia and started a donut empire in southern California. But then he lost it all and disappeared. We try to find him, check out that epic story. It's in your feed right now wherever you got this episode.