How do you eat ice cream on a first date? When should you start meal prepping when you’re in a new relationship? What’s the perfect tailgating food? Sam Sanders, Saeed Jones, and Zach Stafford, the hosts of the podcast Vibe Check, join us to chat about food issues and obsessions in their lives. And they help us settle some listener food disputes about repeat recipes, and Chipotle bowls.
The Sporkful production team includes Dan Pashman, Emma Morgenstern, Andres O'Hara, Nora Ritchie, and Jared O'Connell.
This episode contains explicit language.
Interstitial music in this episode by Black Label Music:
- "Party Hop" by Jack Ventimiglia
- "Dreamin Long" by Erick Anderson
- "Soul Good" by Lance Conrad
- "New Old" by James Thomas Bates
Photo: Zoom Screenshot
View Transcript
Dan Pashman: This episode contains explicit language
Saeed Jones: I hate peanut butter so much, so ...
Zach Stafford: Really?
Saeed Jones: Sometimes I tell people I'm allergic just so I don't have to talk about it.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: You know what I mean? Because it's like that thing where people like, "I'm a hugger," and you're like, "Well I just said, 'I don't want to be touched.'" And they're like, "Well, you haven’t had my peanut butter." I'm like, that's not how it works. No, I just ... I don't like.
Zach Stafford: That's amazing. I'm fueled by peanut butter.
Saeed Jones: I mean, that's — people who like peanut butter, as I've learned, really like peanut butter. It's like, is it a religion? Did it raise you?
[LAUGHING]
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And joining me this week to chat and later to help settle some of your food related disputes are the hosts of the podcast Vibe Check. We have poet and writer Saeed Jones.
Saeed Jones: Hi.
Dan Pashman: Journalist and Tony Award winning producer Zach Stafford.
Zach Stafford: Hello.
Dan Pashman: And journalist and podcaster Sam Sanders.
Sam Sanders: Hi.
Dan Pashman: And What I love about this show is the range of topics. I mean, you guys talk about pop culture, music, but also news. I mean, you’ve addressed the Oscars and the new show Swarm, but also the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank, the train derailment in Ohio, so a lot of ground. But that's kind of what it's like when longtime friends hand out and hat. You're all long time friends and this show is like taking your group chat and putting it on a podcast.
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Zach Stafford: Yeah. What I love is that on any given day in this group chat that becomes the show, I leave my phone for 2 hours. I come back to like 78 texts from my two sisters.
[LAUGHING]
Zach Stafford: But it's like full of ideas and links and thoughts and it's like, oh, this is ... This feels meaty. Yeah. And that's the joy of it.
All: Yeah.
Sam Sanders: We — you know, the big thing is we created this space in the middle of the pandemic to be a place where you could, like, kick the tires, say the things you may not want to tweet yet. So it becomes kind of this like, I don't know, practice field for us to be like, oh, I'm thinking through this. [Zach Stafford: Yes.] or the beginnings of an idea when you really need to suss it out. We suss it out together and then maybe it ends up on Twitter. Saeed Jones would be the fastest to put it on Twitter
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHS] But I'm tweeting right now, my tweeting this very recording.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: Also, we're some funny bitches on this podcast.
Dan Pashman: And that, yes.
Saeed Jones: You know, I know better than to be one of those people like, oh, I could do stand up. I'm like, no, we're not doing stand up, but we're pretty funny.
Sam Sanders: We're podcast funny. We're podcast funny.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: So thoughtfulness, sometimes disagreement, different ideas, wading through different kinds of disputes and big and small concepts. These are the things you do on Vibe Check and I think it makes you well-suited to come and hang out here on The Sporkful for a little bit. Lets, the four of us, chat about food a little bit, get your bearings on food, and then we're gonna take some calls, hear from some listeners and you can help to share some of your skills with them. And maybe we can help some folks out there who are having some disagreements of their own.
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: Zach, I understand you and your partner, Craig, have gotten into meal prepping recently.
[LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: Of course he would.
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: Lemme tell you something about Zach …
[LAUGHING]
Zach Stafford: He's going to be so happy that this is being talked about, hopefully. [LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: Zach is such an A-plus student.
Saeed Jones: True.
Sam Sanders: This man does CrossFit every morning and prepping the meals just — of course, Zach brings this.
Zach Stafford: It's annoying. I'm really annoying.
Saeed Jones: Expose her.
Zach Stafford: Yeah, so to your question, I have begun meal prepping and what would you like to know, Dan?
[LAUGHING]
Dan Pashman: If you're such a type A and A-plus student, why has it taken you this long to start meal prep?
Zach Stafford: Okay, that's a very good question. So I have historically meal prepped a lot. But when you're falling in love and you're dating, so we've been together for a few years now, but we were living between New York and L.A. and we're traveling all the time that, you know, there's some romanticism in going out to eat and like going out and trying food and exploring things. But then you hit a point in a relationship where you're like, girl, I've gained 5 pounds. Girl, I want to sit at home. Girl, I don't want to go out another time because it's really expensive. And then you realize meal prepping can be a really great weekly activity that you do together to kind of like set the weeks, set your intentions, talk about food. Because I remember — I grew up loving food, I grew up working in restaurants. I worked in the back of a kitchen and did prep, cooking. I did some like — whatever, a lot of things. And I realized at a young age that grocery shopping can be some of the most intimate things you do with someone else. Like to walk through a store and see what they pull for their week to eat, when they're happy, to eat when they're sad ...
Sam Sanders: Hmm.
Saeed Jones: I believe that. You can learn a lot about a person by ... [LAUGHS]
Sam Sanders: Okay. That's true. That's true.
Dan Pashman: Tell me something you learned about Craig that you didn't know about him by going grocery shopping.
Zach Stafford: Canned chicken. That's what I learned about Craig.
Sam Sanders: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Zach Stafford: I did not know ...
Sam Sanders: Canned chicken?
Zach Stafford: Yes. Canned chicken. It's very Midwest and I'm sure he can hear me and he's in the house right now. So I'm really anxious about this. But no, canned chicken was a big moment for us in our grocery shopping.
Saeed Jones: I'm trying — like, I'm literally trying to — like, canned tuna?
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: Saeed looks so confused.
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHING]
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]
Zach Stafford: Yeah, it is canned tuna. So it's just tuna is canned. And then there's chicken that's canned. It's wet. It can stay around forever and ever and ever and, you know ...
Saeed Jones: Dark Meat or white meat? Sorry, I'm very curious.
Zach Stafford: It's white meat, I think? I don't know, actually. It's probably is all meat just left over?
Saeed Jones: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Zach Stafford: I don't know. I should look, but I never grew up eating canned chicken, like at all. Like we eat like made chicken, if you want a chicken. You froze it, sure. But you didn't can it. He is, you know, Midwestern, also lived in Utah. He's ex-Mormon. His family still practices Mormonism and they're big into food storage and keeping a lot of food. So this moment of tension when he pulled out canned chicken at the store and then brought it home and then try to make dishes out of it, I was like, what the hell is ...
Sam Sanders: Like a casserole or what?
Zach Stafford: Yeah. No, like actual, like meal prepping. Like you have, like chicken and rice and chicken and vegetables.
Saeed Jones: Ohh.
Zach Stafford: So I was just like, "What is going on?"
Sam Sanders: Yes.
Zach Stafford: And you know, food and shopping and then cooking, you learn a lot about where you come from and where you're going to go with each other. So yeah, canned chicken was a big aha when we moved in together. That kind of defined this meal prep.
Sam Sanders: Wow. Wow.
Dan Pashman: And how long ago was that big moment in the grocery store?
Zach Stafford: That was last summer the big, big aha.
Dan Pashman: So nine months ago, give or take.
Zach Stafford: Yeah, yeah. Good math. Yeah.
Dan Pashman: And where are you at with canned chicken in your relationship today?
Zach Stafford: We don't really cook with canned chicken anymore.
Sam Sanders: Okay.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: Dan, you are good. Okay, I see you. Good.
Sam Sanders: Yes.
Saeed Jones: Uh-huh, this is an interviewer. Yes.
Sam Sanders: Yeah. Canned chicken Craig.
Saeed Jones: Wow.
Sam Sanders: I like it. Canned chicken Craig.
Zach Stafford: Yeah. But ... But, but, but we do have it in the house in case, you know, the apocalypse happens.
Sam Sanders: Wow.
Dan Pashman: I also love Zach. I love that you've identified a point in a relationship when you go from like, Oh, we're in the restaurant phase to we're in the meal prep phase.
Zach Stafford: Yep. Yes. And it is like a — it is a moment in which you move in together or you're just always together. And it is a good moment of, you know, flagging to each other like I'm here for the long haul. I want to plan with you and think about my life with you.
Sam Sanders: Right.
Zach Stafford: And food and food shopping and food prepping is a way to do that. So I do advise people, if you're in that place in your relationship, give it a try. Like make some meals together and plan to meals together because you're talking about your whole week.
Dan Pashman: So Zach, canned chicken aside, tell me one meal prep dish that you would put together that's one of your very favorites?
Zach Stafford: Oh, my God. I just was eating it as we began. We have began making these breakfast sandwiches that are just so great and they're frozen. So what we do — they're like English muffins — fresh turkey patties, turkey bacon and egg frittata and some cheese. He's on, you know, egg duty and I'm on meat duty. So we're like, preparing them side by side because we're making, you know, 12 to 24. And it's just like an assembly line. And it really plays into my like type A-ness growing up in kitchens because we just run this — run it like a kitchen. The key to these frozen sandwiches, which I learned through him, is you're supposed to dampen napkins and wrap the sandwich in the napkin and then put aluminum foil around it. So then when you freeze it, it freezes the napkin freezes around it. So when you microwave it, it moisten it as it's heating up.
Saeed Jones: Here's my question. Are y'all like, while you're doing this meal prep, are you listening to — like, are you like, you know, playing Anita Baker and and chit chat?
Zach Stafford: Yeah, yeah.
Saeed Jones: Or is it like — cause problem, I'm like, this sounds like an episode of The Bear.
[LAUGHING]
Zach Stafford: Which I would love. I'm like, yeah, let's role playing kitchen.
Saeed Jones: Yes, chef.
Zach Stafford: Yes, chef. Yeah, I'm into that. Yeah. No, it's not that serious. It is — it's like this is we do it Sunday, so there's music playing.
Saeed Jones: Okay.
Zach Stafford: Or we'll be watching a show that we're interested in, but like not needing to sit down so we'll like have about playing.
Dan Pashman: Saeed, you moved to Columbus, Ohio a few years back.
Saeed Jones: 2019. Yeah.
Dan Pashman: And among other things, I understand this move helped you to develop a love of tailgating.
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHS] It did. It did.
Dan Pashman: So what was your relationship with tailgating before moving to Ohio?
Saeed Jones: Yeah, it's almost allowed me to maybe reclaim or reset my relationship with tailgating because I grew up in North Texas where football — whoo baby — is just a really important part of culture. Like to not be a part of football is to not be a part of civil society in Texas to a certain extent. But the tailgating culture, all of that, you know, was associated with all of the — with many of the toxic, you know, issues that I was like, you know, just really struggling to survive. So there wasn't any joy there. You know, it was a very aggressive bro, white, you know, just creepy space for me. I didn't feel safe. I didn't — and I certainly didn't feel like I was having fun. And then I moved to Columbus, Ohio, and, you know, shit ain't sweet. I'm not trying to romanticize college football or anything like that. But there was just like a levity. Maybe it was, you know, that I did not grow up here. And so I was able to just kind of show up, you know, as an adult. I'm more confident in myself and in my spaces. But I don't know. I just it's — I just love it. I love just, you know, grabbing a beer or a vodka cranberry and pretending to care about football.
Sam Sanders: And correct me, Saeed, if I recall correctly, you sometimes leave before the game starts.
Saeed Jones: I always do that.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: But my boyfriend is from Australia and he came tailgating with me last fall and he was really — he was like, okay, so we need to get tickets. What do we do? And I was like, Oh, honey. No, no, no.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: No, no no. I was like, we're going to get some drinks, have a good time, meet up with some friends.
Dan Pashman: You mentioned a couple of your favorite tailgating drinks, Saeed. You have a couple of favorite tailgating foods?
Saeed Jones: I love a hot dog. I get irritated with like the way American food culture always wants to, like, add a little special oomph to justify American classics. It's too much. I just want it very simple. Literally, just ketchup and mustard, you know, good bread, whatever.
Dan Pashman: Sam, I know that you're a big proponent of Jeni's ice cream, which comes from Columbus, right?
Sam Sanders: Yes. And I think what I love the most — so my favorite flavor of theirs is the brown butter almond brittle.
Saeed Jones: That's very good.
Sam Sanders: And I like a lot of their flavors. But it is rare that you can find the thing that you can get in the grocery store that is massed produce that tastes that good and that fresh. It tastes like someone just made it with five ingredients next door to me, you know? And it's one of the few foods where every time I take the first bite of that pint, I make a noise ... still. I'll be like, Ohh. Mmm.
Dan Pashman: It takes your breath away.
Sam Sanders: Yes. It really does. The mouthfeel of Jeni's is so much more substantial than any other ice cream, and the flavors just hit, man. Oh, I love it.
Saeed Jones: Jeni's has a — it was a limited edition just last summer. I don't know if it was the first time they did it, but it was the first time I encountered it, that I experienced this flavor. It was their wedding cake. Oh my God!
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: Oh, I didn't get to try that one.
Saeed Jones: And it feels 1 to 1 [Dan Pashman: Right.] without it feeling like they just shoved a wedding cake into it. You know, [Zach Stafford: Exactly.] I don't how they explain that. But it's .. ooh.
Sam Sanders: And Jeni's, every flavor that I like of theirs, I want to finish the whole pint.
Saeed Jones: Mm-hmm.
Sam Sanders: I want to finish the entire pint.
Dan Pashman: Yes. It's very hard to stop. [LAUGHS]
Sam Sanders: I grew up in Texas and a Bluebell ice cream fan.
Saeed Jones: Yes, BlueBell Nation. Know us. Mm-hmm.
Sam Sanders: And that was like, our religion was our religion.
Zach Stafford: Mm-hmm.
Dan Pashman: Yeah.
Sam Sanders: So to ever even mention another ice cream is a big deal for me. But I will take Jeni's over BlueBell — fight me any day.
Dan Pashman: Yeah.
Saeed Jones: It's very good.
Sam Sanders: And it feels like Jeni's, in a very good way, it feels denser and more substantive than any other ice cream I've had.
Saeed Jones: Yes.
Sam Sanders: There's a fullness to it. The fullness of the mouthfeel? Dan, what is the reason for that? There's got to be a reason for that.
Dan Pashman: It's called it's called overrun.
Saeed Jones: Oh.
Sam Sanders: And when you make ice cream, you incorporate a certain amount of air into it and different brands put a different percentage of air into their ice cream. That's why I like the cheaper like sort of supermarket ones that come in like the big tubs.
Sam Sanders: They're fluffy.
Dan Pashman: They're fluffy.
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: Right. It's because they literally do have more air inside the ice cream inside the ice cream.
Zach Stafford: Ohh.
Sam Sanders: So Jeni's is like no air up in this motherfucker. It's going to be dense.
Dan Pashman: Right. Exactly. Right.
Dan Pashman: So, like the more upscale brands tend to use left less overrun, which is why they're so rich and creamy.
Zach Stafford: Wow.
Sam Sanders: The more you know.
Saeed Jones: I talked to Jeni, and the first time I met her, we had dinner
Dan Pashman: Wait! Saeed, you actually met the Jeni from Jeni's ice cream? Wow. Okay. All right, go on.
Saeed Jones: Yep. I think she's okay for me saying this. She describes herself as a sensualist, which I thought was really ...
Dan Pashman: Hm.
Saeed Jones: You know, I didn't — I don't know what I expected, but I thought that was so interesting. I was like asking like, well, what does that mean? And it's really — and my favorite thing she told me, she was like, really, I make the ice cream so that you can get it in the store — like go into a Jeni store and get it on a cone because she was like you — she was like, go to a Jeni store on a date and get some ice cream on the cone. Because like, when she makes it in her mind, she's like, that's how she wants it to be eaten. Because she was like, you'll learn a lot about yourself and about your date if you two walk out of there eating ice cream on a cone. She's like, Just think about it. It's a very sensual, you know — she was like, you're going to have some experience.
Zach Stafford: Oh my God.
Saeed Jones: And where that experience takes you or doesn't ...
Sam Sanders: There are many ways to eat an ice cream cone.
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHING]
Zach Stafford: Wow, Jeni ... Jeni is a freak. I live.
Saeed Jones: Oh, damn. I just thought it tasted good, but damn, girl. You know?
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] So Saeed, did you do that? Have you done that?
Saeed Jones: I’ve done that and it works. That's all I'm going to say.
[LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: Wow.
Zach Stafford: Wow, wow.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: All right. So Zach, Saeed and Sam, I think it's pretty clear that all three of you have strong opinions about food. You're thoughtful people who aren't afraid to tell folks what you really think. But I think also thoughtful people who are going to able to give good advice. So we have some Sporkful listeners who reached out with food related issues. You want to help them out?
Saeed Jones: Let's do it.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Sam Sanders: Let's do it.
Dan Pashman: All right. we’ll do that when we come back, stick around.
MUSIC
+++BREAK+++
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. On last week’s show, I hung out with the founders of Ghetto Gastro, a Bronx-based culinary collective. These guys do all kinds of things. They host high end events, they have a line of appliances, and they just put out a cookbook called Black Power Kitchen, co-written with Osayi Endolyn. Their mission is to show the world that Bronx culture is high culture. And when they decided to call themselves Ghetto Gastro, they chose that name very intentionally.
CLIP (JON GRAY): We're not trying to make the word ghetto seem cool and palatable to white people. It's really about, you know, rejecting necessary respectability politics within our own community, having an internal conversation like, yeah, we're Black, our food is a global food. It's definitely a lot of ways to act Black and be Black, but we're gonna bring you the unapologetic street side and still demand a premium because for so long our culture has been extracted and the value's been extracted, but now it's time for us to capture the value.
Dan Pashman: After we spent some time chatting, the guys took me around the Bronx to some of the places that inspired recipes in their book. We had patties and coconut bread at Kingston Tropical Bakery, rotis at Feroza’s Roti Shop, and Green Juice at Green Garden Juice Bar. It was all really delicious, and I just might have found a new favorite hot sauce. Hear about it all in last week's episode’s up now.
Dan Pashman: All right, I'm back now with Zach Stafford, Sam Sanders, and Saeed Jones, hosts of the podcast Vibe Check. Hey, Everyone.
Saeed Jones: Hi.
Sam Sanders: Hello.
Zach Stafford: Hello.
Dan Pashman: All right. I think we have some folks joining our zoom right now who have a food related issue that needs some mediation. Hello, hello. Please introduce yourselves.
Chris: Hi, I'm Chris from Omaha, Nebraska. And this is my husband, Justin.
Justin: Hey.
Dan Pashman: Hey, Justin and Chris. Say hi to my friend Saeed, Sam, and Zach.
Justin: Hey, guys. How you doing?
Chris: Hi! Hello?
Zach Stafford: Hi.
Saeed Jones: Hi.
Sam Sanders: Hello, hello.
Dan Pashman: What can we do for you today?
Justin: Okay, so let me just start by saying that Chris is a great cook. She makes us wonderful things. She's on online cooking lessons. She has magazines. She has tons of cookbooks. So the way I would sum this up, I guess, would to say that she's reluctant to do repeats. The way I think of her process is I try a new recipe. It's awesome and great and then she throws the recipe away.
Chris: No, no, no, no. No, I don't throw it away. I often misplace them.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: On purpose?
Chris: No!
Saeed Jones: Okay.
Chris: No, not of purpose. No. I just got so much coming in at me, and I want to try everything.
Sam Sanders: Yeah. Give me an example of one of the recipes that you felt was discarded too soon.
Justin: Well, okay, so a while ago, she made this butter chicken, and it's just like a sort of a crock pot recipe.
Sam Sanders: Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Justin: And it was awesome. I mean, she doesn't usually cook Indian type food. And so she was getting out of her comfort zone. But it was awesome. It was delicious. It was great. And then a couple of months went by and she says, "Do you want have butter chicken again?" I said, "Yeah, that'd be great." So she makes it again, but she uses a different recipe.
Chris: [LAUGHS] I did .
Justin: So now it's still good, but it's a different dish.
Sam Sanders: Okay. Can I ask another follow up question?
Justin: Sure.
Sam Sanders: What's the ratio of cooking? Does she always cook? Do you cook some too? How does that work?
Justin: I'd say it's probably 90-10, her.
Sam Sanders: Okay. Okay.
Justin: We both cook, but I got busy doing other things, so she sort of took on more responsibilities and she ...
Dan Pashman: But it sounds like — Chris, you enjoy cooking?
Chris: Oh, yeah. It's like, what am I going to make next? And then I'm reading ...
Dan Pashman: Okay.
Chris: You know, we have a subscription to a cooking online class.
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Chris: And then all the magazines that are coming in or we go out to eat and I want to try to figure out how we had that dish at home. The other problem that he thinks is a problem is I don't want to have — I don't mind leftovers.
Saeed Jones: Okay.
Chris: But I immediately pack up part of the food and take it to my dad because he lives attached to us and he's 84.
Saeed Jones: Okay.
Zach Stafford: Aww. Oh yeah.
Chris: And he has really sad food at his house. So I'm trying to help him. So I'm like, then I can get it out of our refrigerator and then we can make something new.
Zach Stafford: Chris, just a clarification so you can speak to this issue. Is he being honest when he says you never repeat recipes or is it just certain dishes that he's talking about?
Chris: Uh, I am not good about repeating.
Zach Stafford: Okay.
Chris: I'm not good.
Zach Stafford: So you self-identify as a non repeater. Okay.
[LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: Do you know what you don't want to repeat? So Chris, do you think you know why you don't want to repeat? What's behind that choice?
Chris: Just that I want to try this new thing that I've seen.
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Chris: There's so many cool things to make or a different way to make it, and I'm just inundated with too much media, I think.
Saeed Jones: It's not like you're like, here's the butter chicken. You're like, that was good, wasn't it? And then you, like, set the recipe on fire while he's eating it.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: It's that a lot is going on. And then a few months — and I get it like a few months later — for me, it would almost be — you know, I'm a writer, right? And so books and poems and it would almost — tell me if this feels accurate? It's almost like you read a really great paragraph or a really great section of a poem, and then months later you're like, where was that? And now you're walking all over the apartment and you can't find the right book. It's more that?
Chris: Yes, yes.
Sam Sanders: This is not my verdict, but a question.
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHS]
Sam Sanders: Have you, the husband, ever said, "Well, I like that recipe we had a month ago. I know she's not going to make it again, but I will." Have you ever done that?
Justin: I have not, because first of all, she's usually in control of the kitchen and she made it the first time, so she'll be able to make it good the next time.
Zach Stafford: All right.
Justin: You know, sometimes I'm just looking for the comfort of an old friend, right?
Sam Sanders: You were mouthing something, Chris. What were you mouthing? Say it out loud.
Chris: I said, "That was a little bit of a cop out."
[LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: Tell me more.
Zach Stafford: Spill. Spill, Chris.
Saeed Jones: Tell me more.
Sam Sanders: I want to know more, Chris.
Chris: I like where you're going. He can easily say, I'm going to I'm going to make this now.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Chris: He can do that. I like that idea.
Sam Sanders: Are we at the verdict part yet? Because I think ...
Saeed Jones: Is it? This is where you learn the three of us have three very different person — I'm like, is this like verdict? Kind of.
Zach Stafford: Yes.
[LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: Oh, I got a verdict, baby. I got a verdict.
Saeed Jones: Like, are you you pull out gavel? I guess — Oh look! Chris has a gavel.
Zach Stafford: She has a gavel. She has a gavel.
Saeed Jones: I'm scared of you, Chris. Chris from Omaha,
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: I guess, I'll say, Justin, what are you usually doing when when Chris is cooking? Like, are you in the kitchen with her kind of being apart — you know? Or ...
Justin: Yeah, often I'm the sous chef.
Saeed Jones: Okay.
Justin: That happens a lot. I'm making — downstairs making cocktails.
Saeed Jones: Oh, okay.
Justin: She sends me off to do that a lot.
Saeed Jones: Okay. And Chris, tell me if this is accurate. So it's not like Justin is just like off hanging out or whatever. Like, it seems like he's a part of the cooking experience in one way or another?
Chris: A lot of — yeah.
Saeed Jones: Okay.
Chris: Most of the time, Yeah.
Saeed Jones: All right.
Sam Sanders: I got some thoughts.
Saeed Jones: Oh, clearly. Go on, girl.
Dan Pashman: Okay.
Sam Sanders: I want to — yeah.
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: Go on, Sam.
Sam Sanders: I'm watching the body language here. Y'all clearly love each other very much so.
Chris: No.
Sam Sanders: But more than, you know, husband, you kind of work on your wife's nerves with this.
Chris: [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Sam Sanders: I think you need to be a little more of an equal partner in the kitchen. And I think there's two things that I would suggest for you that will help solve your problem and give you some more agency to do some things yourself. You can be the keeper of the recipes.
Saeed Jones: That's what I was thinking too.
Sam Sanders: If she's the lead chef ...
Saeed Jones: Yeah.
Sam Sanders: You can say every recipe that I like and then make it a point. At the end of that meal, save the recipe.
Justin: Oh, I like that.
Sam Sanders: You can do that. Right? And then you have them if you want to revisit. And the second thing you can do, because you know your way around the kitchen, if you really want a recipe again, you don't have to ask her to do it all the time. You could do it.
Justin: Okay.
Sam Sanders: Right?
Justin: Well, and how about we jointly do menu? That might work that too?
Saeed Jones: Uh-huh.
Sam Sanders: That would — if she wants to do that too.
Zach Stafford: Mm-hmm.
Sam Sanders: But what I see here is that your wife is working harder than you think to feed not just the two of y'all, but also her dad. And I know, Chris, it seems like you enjoy this work, but it's work.
Chris: Mm-hmm.
Sam Sanders: And so if having to handle recipes in this way that you like more, husband, is more work for her? Help do the more work. You can keep the recipes. You can perhaps take the initiative for a repeat one that you want, but you can lead more. I heard you at one point say that she has all the power in the kitchen. You know, this is y'alls kitchen. You're in it, too, right?
Justin: Well, that's fair. I think that's fair.
Sam Sanders: Yeah. So, I mean, very simply, I would say save the recipes that you like and then don't be afraid to start a meal yourself.
Saeed Jones: Yeah, I agree. What I'm hearing is that Chris's joy, her relationship to cooking is about the pursuit of the possible. It's a movement into the future. And I just love the way your eyes lit up when you like, there's just so many — there's just so many things out there to cook in to try and that's that's so exciting. And I think how beautiful. I mean, one of — you know, a great relationship, I hope, does have a sense of propulsion, does have a sense of moving toward the possible. But also, I think what's really beautiful about relationship is finding a way, like you're saying, like saving the recipes so that we can look at the past, so that we can appreciate what we've built together. And so I think one practically, it would just be nice and Chris, you know, would be like, oh, here's the actual recipe for the butter chicken from three months ago. Thank you. But also I think with time as you kind of compile this, I mean, it's like a love document. You know what I mean? That you can kind of look back on together? And that just — that seems like a beautiful gift, but also a practical one that you can build together.
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: I love that. Zach, Thoughts?
Zach Stafford: I mean, they've said everything. I agree so much. I think you both want to love each other and that's what's so beautiful here, is that you're really trying to figure out the best ways to love on each other. And how do you also have your love show up in that love? And that's what I'm hearing from you, Justin, where you're saying, you know, well, she does this. You're you're trying to be respectful. You're like, I have my role and she has her role. But I think there's a space to come together. And for you to also partake in the type of love that she's performing for you, too. And you kind of do that for each other. Because, I mean, I'm the same way, Chris. Like, I want to do it. I want to provide and provide. But what I learned to give my partner, you know, the whisk and the ladle and all these things to cook for me, we had a really magical relationship in the kitchen when it was, you know, two-sided, not just one side at me being head chef.
Zach Stafford: Yeah, I like this documentation aspect.
Dan Pashman: Yes. Well, and the other thing I like about the documentation, I see this as someone who's just gotten to the end of writing my first cookbook ...
Zach Stafford: Yay! Good job!
Saeed Jones: Congratulations!
Sam Sanders: Congrats!
Chris: I want that.
Dan Pashman: Thank you. And sort of the first time that I've been been put in position where I had to cook the same thing over and over again. And it does allow you to refine the recipe and make it your own. And that in itself is a rewarding process. So you cook it once and it's good. You cook it a second time, you make a tweak. And a third or fourth time you make a tweak. And then pretty soon it's Chris's special butter chicken.
Chris: [LAUGHS]
Zach Stafford: Aww.
Saeed Jones: Well said.
Sam Sanders: There we go.
Zach Stafford: Exactly.
Dan Pashman: You know, and and that's also rewarding as opposed to just doing something new each time. So …
Sam Sanders: Write it down.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: I think all these suggestions are great. The one thing I would add is I think that once a month Justin should get to pick a greatest hit.
Justin: Oh, I like that.
Saeed Jones: That's a good compromise.
Chris: Yes, absolutely.
Sam Sanders: And I would say ...
Chris: At least once month a month.
Sam Sanders: Let Justin cook it, too.
[LAUGHING]
Justin: It may not be as great, though, so ...
Saeed Jones: But still …
Sam Sanders: But that's the beauty of ...
Chris: You are. He's really good. He's really good.
Sam Sanders: See?
Dan Pashman: Yeah, all right. All right.
Sam Sanders: We're going to empower you.
Zach Stafford: Yes.
Saeed Jones: I love it.
Zach Stafford: It's going to be great. Okay.
Dan Pashman: All right. Well, Chris and Justin in Omaha, thanks so much for reaching out. We hope you enjoy all of your next dinners this week, whether they're new or repeats of some of the greatest hits.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Justin: All right, Thanks for talking.
Chris: Thanks. Thank you.
Justin: Thanks, guys, for helping us out.
Sam Sanders: This is delightful.
Chris: This is great. Thank you.
Zach Stafford: Aw, thank you. Bye.
Chris: Bye.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: I think we have time for one more caller. This is a voicemail we received. You ready?
Saeed Jones: Yeah, let's go.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Sam Sanders: Yeah, let's do it.
Dan Pashman: Well, we got this message from Judson in Washington, D.C.
Zach Stafford: Oh my God
Dan Pashman: Do you know Judson? [LAUGHING]
Zach Stafford: I’m at his wedding this weekend.
Saeed Jones: Yeah, I was like ...
Zach Stafford: This is so funny. Oh my God. Go for it.
Saeed Jones: Is this our friend, Jusdon? Okay.
Zach Stafford: Oh my God.
[LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: Okay. Okay.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: I was like what are the odds? Okay.
Dan Pashman: Okay, now here’s your friend … Judson
Judson: Hello lovely ladies ... This dispute stems from savage, beastly, downright shameful and disgusting behavior related to eating a Chipotle bowl. Is it correct to eat a Chipotle bowl left to right, or should you like a child sociopath/my partner, mix up the bowl, destroying all of its flavors to create something like a brothless Chipotle soup? Thank you for ultimately agreeing with me. Your friend Judson. And yes, you may use my real name because I know that I am right. Bye!
Saeed Jones: Judson!
Zach Stafford: I'm crying. And congratulations to Judson getting married to this person.
Sam Sanders: Wow.
Saeed Jones: Congratulations, you too.
Zach Stafford: He is literally getting married to this person.
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: Are they serving Chipotle at the wedding?
Saeed Jones: My God, I hope not.
Zach Stafford: No, but something very similar. No, my sister served Chipotle at her wedding, by the way, but this wedding, they are not. But they should because it's a good idea. [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: So just just to make clear what what the question is. So when you get a Chipotle bowl, they have the bowl. They put down a bed of rice. And then as you order your chicken, beans, salsa, whatever it may be, they kind of put those in clumps, all arrayed next to each other.
Zach Stafford: Mm-hmm.
Dan Pashman: All those different things that you've chosen from the bar are not mixed together.
Saeed Jones: Okay.
Sam Sanders: Yeah
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: They're in small piles next to each other.
Sam Sanders: Yes. Oh, I know a Chipote bowl very well. Yeah.
Dan Pashman: Right. And what Judson is saying, that he thinks these — it should be eaten left to right or you could say around in a circle. But in any case, keeping the components separate to some degree. Or should the whole thing be mixed together to get consistent ratios in every bite before you eat?
Sam Sanders: Are they sharing the bowl?
Zach Stafford: No.
Sam Sanders: Or is it a bowl him and a bowl for the partner?
Saeed Jones: That is vital. Yeah. If I was sharing ...
Zach Stafford: I think it's just individual bowl.
Sam Sanders: So if it's him and the bowl for the partner, let him be.
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHING]
Sam Sanders: To each their own.
Zach Stafford: I mean, that's number one. Let him be.
Sam Sanders: Let him be. My philosophy about food and how other people eat? Never, ever tell other adults how to eat, even if they're your partner.
Saeed Jones: Speaking for myself, to answer Justin's question, I wouldn't mix it all up just because I think that would look ugly.
Sam Sanders: Can I tell you my secret? I'm a mixer.
Saeed Jones: You're a mixer? That's why I could tell. We know you’re a mixer, girl.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Zach Stafford: We could have told you that. Yes.
Dan Pashman: That's why this struck such a nerve with Sam.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Saeed Jones: I guess I'm just saying, personally, I wouldn't tell someone else how to eat their — I agree.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Saeed Jones: But I would — personally, I don't like how it looks all mixed up. You know, I'm not — I'm not a farm animal. I'm not just looking for feed. I view this as an experience.
Sam Sanders: I'm Babe, the pig. Take me to the trough. I'm okay with it.
Zach Stafford: Oh boy, Bab in the city, Sam Sanders. I mean, I agree.
Dan Pashman: Zach, let's hear it.
Zach Stafford: You know, let people eat how they want to eat. Chipotle Bowls or how you want to eat them. Whatever. Whatever. The god tier way to each a Chipotle bowl which I learned from TikTok, is you flip it over and you eat it upside down from the aluminum.
Saeed Jones: Ohh. That's where the flavors are.
Zach Stafford: So you have all that stuff that's on top on the bottom and then you eat it that way.
Saeed Jones: That sounds good.
Dan Pashman: Really what the fundamental question here is one that we have debated on The Sporkful going back more than a decade. It's the debate between bite consistency and bite variety. In some foods, you want all your ratios in every bite, you want bite consistency in some dishes.
Saeed Jones: Yes.
Dan Pashman: In other dishes, you want bite variety. You want that one piece of Jeni's ice cream that has the giant chunk of almond brittle because it stands out from the others. You don't want the same amount of crunch in every bite.
Saeed Jones: Right. Because it depends. It's kind of like if I have dim sum, the pleasure of dim sum is kind of going, okay, what do I want next? What flavor, what texture do I want next?
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Saeed Jones: So I guess it's what you are looking for.
Sam Sanders: For me, the distinction is savory versus sweet. If I'm having savory food, like a Chipotle label or pizza, I actually want bite consistency. I love when pizza toppings are arranged in a pretty uniform fashion. For a dessert or a sweet thing, I like the difference, like the crust piece is like crispier than the middle piece, and I enjoy that. But for the savory main course of the meal, I actually want a uniformity. I know this is kind of weird and detailed, but that's my process.
Dan Pashman: Yeah. No, I think that's great. Look, I don't think that there's necessarily a right or wrong. I agree. Like generally, you know, I like to quote the Latin, "Maximum de gustibus non esputanem". In matters of taste, there can be no dispute.
Saeed Jones: Oh, okay. Proverb.
Sam Sanders: Okay. Okay.
Zach Stafford: Okay. All right.
Dan Pashman: And so, you know, like generally, I agree with you. People can have bite variety or bite consistency, whatever they want. I just think a lot of people aren't really thinking about it.
Saeed Jones: True.
Dan Pashman: And what I want to encourage you to do is at least stop and think about what it is that you want.
Sam Sanders: Stop and think.
Dan Pashman: So that you make sure that you're getting it. That being said, I think that this debate gets to a larger philosophical question. Because like when you're eating a food with bite variety, some bites are going to be better than others.
Zach Stafford: Yes.
Sam Sanders: Yes.
Dan Pashman: All right? To whatever your taste is. When you have that bite, that's the most incredible bite that has all the ratios just so — it's like let's say it's your third or fourth bite into the thing and it's that bite stands out. It's very easy to spend the rest of that dish chasing that same bite.
Sam Sanders: Or I’ll just stop right there. I'll be like, I cant beat that bite. We’re good
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] But it's sort of like, if everything could be perfect, would you want it to be?
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Saeed Jones: No.
Dan Pashman: Like if every bite could be the best bite, would you want it to be? But then every bite wouldn't be special.
Zach Stafford: Yeah, yeah.
Saeed Jones: If every bite is perfect, eventually every bite is then mediocre because they're all exactly the same.
Zach Stafford: Yeah. Yeah.
Sam Sanders: Yeah, I'll say that. But then I think about Jeni's brown butter almond brittle ice cream. And it feels like, every bite is perfect, and I still think it's perfect.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
[LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: Well actually, I have two other things. One. One, Judson — and I will text Judson about this when we get off this conversation.
Zach Stafford: You should.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]
Saeed Jones: So I'll tell him, Bitch, if you want to be happy, you need to realize there are some things that are not worth you paying attention to.
Zach Stafford: 100 percent.
Sam Sanders: Thank you.
Saeed Jones: And I would argue that your fiance has been — yeah.
Zach Stafford: On his — the week of his wedding.
Sam Sanders: Yeah, yeah.
Zach Stafford: He has done this? Oh my God. Like what is wrong with you?
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Saeed Jones: Two, I feel like personally, whenever I have Chipotle, it's usually like I've just finished working out and like, I'm almost like, nearly light-headed. Like I'm eating to survive is what I'm trying to say.
Sam Sanders: There you go.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Saeed Jones: So I'm not thinking that much. Like, to me, it's ...
Sam Sanders: This is not a Michelin star meal. Just eat it.
Saeed Jones: Got it. Chipotle is something I eat. It's not necessarily like a meal, if that makes sense? [LAUGHS]
Sam Sanders: There you go.
Zach Stafford: I will say my last note on this to Sam, if you mix it, because I'm not a big mixer, but if I did mix it, then that's when you order the chips and you use the chips to dip into your Chipotle bowl.
Saeed Jones: Oh!
Sam Sanders: Ohh.
Saeed Jones: Okay, you make a good point.
Zach Stafford: Then it becomes the chip.
Saeed Jones: Good point.
Sam Sanders: I like that.
Zach Stafford: Mm-hmm.
Sam Sanders: I like that.
Dan Pashman: I think there is a third way, which is that, you know, you could take a spoon, go around the bowl, get a little dab of guac, get a little piece of chicken, run it through the salsa, scoop it through the rice. That's one bite.
Sam Sanders: What is this? What is this? That's too much work, baby.
Dan Pashman: Then you can — that's not work. It's a game, Sam.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: This is ...
Saeed Jones: [LAUGHING]
Dan Pashman: It's the pursuit of excellence. Zach, you're going to understand this.
Zach Stafford: Yes.
Dan Pashman: Zach, you're my fellow type-A overachiever, right?
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: It's fun to take this bowl and be like, I'm going to see how many different bites I can create.
Zach Stafford: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: And I'm going to figure out what my favorite one is.
Saeed Jones: Wow.
Dan Pashman: And by the time I'm about halfway through, I will have tried all the different best combinations. Then I'll have zeroed in on the best ratio, and the best order in which to scoop from the different components.
Sam Sanders: Y'all see the world differently than me.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]
Zach Stafford: I — wait. I agree. I agree so much with Dan. And this also brings me to tie back to ice cream, something that we didn't talk about, which is what I do, and I don't know if others do. But when you start eating a pint of ice cream, it's really cold. And as you start eating it, it starts to melt. When it begins to melt ...
Dan Pashman: Yes.
Zach Stafford: Then you start mixing it and make it more of like a frosty texture.
Dan Pashman: Yes. Yes.
Zach Stafford: And it becomes a different type of ice cream.
Sam Sanders: No. When my thing starts to get cold, I put it back in the freezer for 20 minutes to get it cold again.
Dan Pashman: Oh god, Sam.
Zach Stafford: No.
Sam Sanders: Oh, I want a rock solid ...
Zach Stafford: Sam wants perfection all the time.
Saeed Jones: I think y'all is both doing too much.
Sam Sanders: Yeah.
Saeed Jones: When it starts to melt, I say eat faster, bitch. Scoop, scoop. Keep it moving
[LAUGHING]
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: All right. Well, poet and writer Saeed Jones, journalist and Tony Award winning producer Zach Stafford, and journalist and podcaster Sam Sanders. Together, they are the host of the podcast Vibe Check. Thank you all so much for joining me and for helping to wade through some of these thorny issues.
Saeed Jones: Dan, I learned so much about us today. Thank you!
Zach Stafford: Yes.
Sam Sanders: This is amazing. Literally
Zach Stafford: Group therapy.
Saeed Jones: Wow, I am shaking.
[LAUGHING]
Dan Pashman: Hey, if you're new to our show, please take a minute right now and connect with us in your podcasting app. You can hit subscribe or heart or favorite or like or plus, whatever the thing on our page in your podcasting app is to connect, to hang out with us more often, please press it right now while we're talking. That's all.
Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, I talk with the one and only Bill Nighy The Science Guy. If you're making pasta and you salt the water, does the salt make the water boil faster? Bill will tell us that and much more. That's next week. While you wait for that one, check our my conversation with the co-founders of the Bronx based culinary collective Ghetto Gastro up now where you got this one.
