Katie Leaird: I feel like in my heart of hearts, I really am a very old Italian grandmother.

Dan Pashman: This is Katie Leaird, one of the recipe developers who I collaborated with on my cookbook, Anything’s Pastable. Katie has lived and cooked professionally in Italy, which is why we nicknamed her “Super Nonna”.

Katie Leaird: And, you know it's a little bit ironic, because I'm — I mean, I'm 40. I have little kids, so I'm really not a grandmother at all, and I'm Estonian. I have no Italian blood in me. I did use a sperm donor for my children —TMI — but you know, like, when ...

Dan Souza: This is the moment for TMI.

Katie Leaird: This is the moment, isn’t it? 

Dan Souza: Yeah, yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah,

Katie Leaird: Isn't it? Yeah, yeah. You all care. 

[LAUGHTER] 

Katie Leaird: When I used a sperm donor, you know, you get what you pay for, and I was like, if I can pay for my kids to be a little Italian, I will. Yeah, I was like, you know, height I can sacrifice, but [Dan Pashman: Right.] make them a little Italian, so ... 

[LAUGHTER]

MUSIC 

Lindy West: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Lindy West.

Kae Lani Palmisano: I'm Kae Lani Palmisano. 

Ann Kim: I'm Ann Kim. 

Kim Severson: I'm Kim Severson. 

Joanne Lee Molinaro: I'm Joanne Lee Molinaro. Each week on this show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. 

Andy Richter: And tonight, we're coming to you live from Chow Now in Los Angeles ... 

Claire Safftiz: From Gramercy Theater in New York City ... 

San Sanders: From Swedish American Hall in San Francisco ...

Joanne Lee Molinaro: From Everybody’s Coffee in Chicago ... 

Pati Jinich: From Miracle Theater in Washington, D.C. ... 

Dan Pashman: From WBUR City Space in Boston ... 

[APPLAUSE]

Dan Pashman: This week we’re bringing you the second half of our Best of the Book Tour series — six weeks, ten live Sporkful tapings in ten cities, all in celebration of the release of my first cookbook, Anything’s Pastable. Last week, we brought you some highlights from my conversations with hosts across the tour.

Dan Pashman: This week we’re answering your questions. You see, every show had an audience Q&A, so we're gonna share my answers to the most frequently asked questions and to some that I never saw coming. We’ll also get into some behind the scenes stories from the making of the book, and we’ll have time for plenty of hot takes from me and a bunch of other folks.

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: But let’s start with the real stars of Anything’s Pastable — my family. Because as I traveled the country for these shows, a lot of you wanted to hear more about them. Starting with this question from an audience member in Atlanta …

Person 1: You mentioned that your wife thought this was a terrible idea. How often and under what circumstances do you bring that up in your relationship?

Dan Pashman: You know, she’s still skeptical of me, that's the weird thing. I should say, as much as she's very skeptical of my ideas, she was skeptical of the Sporkful when it launched. She’s like, you know… She was skeptical of cascatelli, she was skeptical of the cookbook. But then when it comes out, she's my number one booster. Like I’m kind of bashful. Like I’m not gonna walk into a party and be like, hey, I invented a pasta shape, but she will. She'll be like, "Have you met my husband? He invented a pasta shape. Let me tell you all about it. Here's a picture." And I'm like [CRINGE]. So I went to the Fancy Food Show at the Javits Center in New York City, and it's like all these brands and whatever, big thing. And so Sfoglini, who made the original version of my pasta, they have a booth. And Janie, my wife, loves tabling. Put her at a table in any kind of conference, any kind of gathering, and she just ... She just ... She'll pull people in. So she came, she was very excited to come to the Fancy Food Show and work at the Sfoglini booth. And I recorded audio of her hocking Cascatelli and I recorded it and put it in an update, a cascatelli update episode of The Sporkful. I hope that everybody someday has the opportunity to not only prove your spouse wrong, but also get them admitting that they were wrong on tape ... 

Person 2: Nice. 

Dan Pashman:  Because it's a great feeling.

[LAUGHING] 

Person 2: Nice. Thank you!

Dan Pashman: One person in San Francisco had a question about my kids. 

Person 3: Hi Dan, this question is about your girls. Do they like to help you in the kitchen, and are they actually helpful?

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Thank you for recognizing that those are two different questions. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Yes, they like to help me some of the time. I try not to, like, pressure them to do it 'cause I want them to enjoy it. And my older daughter will be — she has a couple friends who are very into cooking and she'll be like, "Oh, Daniella roast a whole chicken for her family. I wanna roast a chicken. You know, will you show me how to roast a chicken?" I'm like, "Yeah, sure." But then when the time comes, "I'm like, I'm about to roast a chicken, come in the kitchen. This is your chance," she's like, "No, I'm busy. "

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Are they actually helpful? Um … Like in the sense of like, would it go faster and easier without them there? If that's the definition of helpful, then no, they're not helpful. 

[LAUGHING] 

Person 4: Woahh. 

Dan Pashman: But I still always invite them to cook with me when they're around. I still enjoy it, even though I know that they're not actually making the process any easier. You know, because it's fun, and hopefully they'll look back on it with happy memories, and learn something along the way, and you know, get into cooking. But my older daughter has started to ask, like, you know, "How will I know how to do this when I go to college?" I mean, she's 13, she's got time. But she'll be like, "Can I bring the cookbook with me to college, because I want to be able to cook these dishes when you're not there to cook them for me." But it's kind of good, I don't want them to learn too much, because then they'll have to call me. 

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Now, if there’s one thing any Sporkful live show is likely to include, it’s strong opinions and healthy debate. Throughout the tour, people wanted to hear my thoughts on a range of foods. In Boston, after I complained about how hard it is to get a good bite of spaghetti on your fork, Dan Souza, editor-in-chief of Cook’s Illustrated magazine, asked this:  

Dan Souza: Why is easy so important to you in food?

Dan Pashman: Well, no ... Well ... I don't love foods that require — like I don't want my pistachios in a shell. You know? 

Dan Souza: But why not? Why not? Let's dig into that.

Dan Pashman: It's just ... [LAUGHS] It's just annoying. It's an annoying process. Like I wanna eat a mouthful of pistachios all at once. Look, maybe someday I'll have like all this leisure time in my life and I'm just gonna sit just cracking open pistachios. But to me, like ... 

Dan Souza: Like that’s a retirement plan?

Dan Pashman: Yes!

Dan Souza: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Then later in that show, when we opened up that show for questions from the audience … 

Linda Pashman: Hi, I'm Linda, and I just want to say that your dad has spent many hours shelling pistachios.

Dan Pashman: This is my mom everyone, by the way.

Audience: Awwww

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

[APPLAUSE] 

Dan Pashman: So Dad shells pistachios?

Linda Pashman: Just like if he eats a whole lobster, he takes it all out of the shell before he starts eating it ... 

Dan Pashman: Right. He also unwraps gifts, like, without tearing the wrapping paper.

[LAUGHING] 

Linda Pashman: But I just want you to know your future.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Well ... But do you do that? 

Linda Pashman: No.

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Linda Pashman: No. I shell and eat. 

Dan Pashman: Right, but do you like, enjoy shelling pistachios?

Linda Pashman: Yes, I do. 

Dan Pashman: Have you always?

Linda Pashman: It's very therapeutic. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Linda Pashman: I do. I find it — same thing with eating a whole artichoke.

Dan Souza: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Oh. 

Dan Souza: I’m with you. You’re Linda right? 

Linda Pashman: Yes, I am.

Dan Souza: Yeah, Linda, I think you and I are on the same page. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Souza: Can I ask, did something happen with Dan as a young … 

[LAUGHING]

Dan Souza: This is like a perfect opportunity here. 

Linda Pashman: You mean, like I dropped him on his head? No.

Dan Souza: Yeah, or like you dropped him and he landed on spaghetti and, like, got really upset at the spaghetti? Anything like that?

Linda Pashman: Oh no, we have to talk about this after.

Dan Souza: Okay. I'll book some one on one time. 

[LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE]

Dan Pashman: That was really more of a comment than a question, but thanks, Mom.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: I got another question about my food preferences in Seattle, where I was on stage with author, podcaster, and TV writer, Lindy West.

Sam: Hi, there. 

Dan Pashman: Hi. 

Sam: My name’s Sam. 

Dan Pashman: Hey, Sam.

Sam: A question for both of you, I guess. What is a food that you are embarrassed to admit that you don’t like? 

Dan Pashman: Ohh. 

Lindy West: Don't like?

Dan Pashman: Don't like. A food that you're embarrassed to admit that you don't like. 

Sam: Don't like. Yes.

Dan Pashman: That's tough I mean, I'm kind of picky about where I like nuts. I love nuts in certain things, and in more things than I used to, but still don't love them in all things. I struggle sometimes with the texture of okra.

Lindy West: The thing that is an absolute staple ingredient that I hate is freaking parsley. I hate the taste of parsley. It is so distracting to me. It's the strongest flavor. It rips me out of any food that I'm eating [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] and all I can taste is this parsley and I do not understand why all y'all are gaga and act like this is just like a nice little thing. If there is one flake of parsley, I'm like, "This is parsley. I'm eating a bowl of parsley."

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Yeah, that’s a good answer. I mean, I’ve warmed up to parsley, but one of my rules for the book is if it's gonna be in a recipe then it will either be optional, or there's going to be a lot of it. Because what I hate is when you go — a recipe tells you to go buy a head of parsley, and you put, you know, one tablespoon of chopped parsley into the recipe, and you put the rest of the head of the parsley into your fridge, and you're just like, you're going to be dead soon. I’ll throw you out in a week. You know, like you just know what a waste it was.

Dan Pashman: In Washington D.C., I was on stage with cookbook author and TV host Pati Jinich. And when the Q&A came, I felt like I’d found a kindred spirit when I got this audience question:

Nathan: My name is Nathan. I come from Maryland. 

[AUDIENCE CHEERS] 

Nathan: I — one night, I had an argument at dinner with my sister about what defines a condiment, a sauce, and a dip, and how they're different, and what different categories are there. 

[AUDIENCE CHEERS] 

Pati Jinich: You need to have him on your show.

Dan Pashman: And you want me to tell you that you're right, Nathan? Is that ... 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: This is actually an issue that I've thought deeply about, so you've come to the right place. I don't know, though, that I'm going to have the answer that you want. Because I believe that the difference is not in the foodstuff, but in how it's used. So the exact same food can be a spread, or a dip, or a condiment, or an ingredient. I mean, look at cream cheese. Cream cheese can be a spread. It can also be an ingredient in a cheesecake, and it could also be an ingredient in a dip, so then it's a dip. So to me, it's not about the food, it's about how it's used.

Pati Jinich: Can I just say you just taught him a lesson about how to debate?

[LAUGHING] 

NATHAN: Yeah, I do think ... I actually agree with that.

Dan Pashman: Okay, go on. Yes?

Nathan: I, actually, agree with that. My sister was saying what defines a sauce is that it’s a condiment, I think. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Nathan: I think, she was saying, "All sauces are condiments," and I was just like, "That just does not make sense."

Pati Jinich: Ooh. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Is your sister here tonight, Nathan?

Nathan: Um, no.

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Nathan: She's at ... 

Dan Pashman: Well, then let's just — among us, let's just agree that you're right. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Okay. All right. 

[LAUGHING AND CHEERING] 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Coming up after the break, I answer what was probably the single most-asked question on the tour — what’s a dish that didn't make the final cut for the book? And a listener gives me a very backhanded compliment. Stick around.

MUSIC

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. And hey, if you’re enjoying listening to these live shows, we got more events in the works. Later this month we have a live Sporkful taping in Napa, then this summer, I’ll be doing a book talk in Martha’s Vineyard, and in September, get this, we’re going international! I’ll be doing a live Sporkful at the London Podcast Festival, where my guest will be comedian Ed Gamble, co-host of the podcast Off Menu. Details and links for all these are at Sporkful.com/events. And make sure you follow me on Instagram, that way you’ll always know about some new events that we may be announcing soon. Follow me there, @TheSporkful.

Dan Pashman: One more quick note, to please stay tuned to the end of this episode for a special segment from our sponsor Norwegian Cruise Line. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Quick warning that there are some curse words coming up.

Dan Pashman: All right, let’s get back to it. Now, there was one question that we didn’t cover in our series about the making of Anything’s Pastable, and it came up at a bunch of shows. Here’s audience member Jordan in Washington D.C.

Jordan: So many of the things in that cookbook were so interesting. What got left on the cutting room floor? Like, what's the most interesting recipe that you didn't include in the book?

Dan Pashman: So I love the Korean dish bossam. It's like pork belly with a sauce and wrap it in a lettuce or a perilla leaf, and it's crunchy, and you get kimchi in there. It's just like so many flavors. It's one of my very favorite things. I was at a Korean restaurant. I was eating bossam and just really enjoying myself, so I texted James Park, one of my recipe developers, who's Korean American. I was like, "James, do you think we could turn bossam into a pasta dish?" Not — it won't it won't be bossam, but like inspired by, like bringing together some of the same flavors and ingredients and he was like, "We can try."

Dan Pashman: At our New York show, James Park actually joined me on stage himself! He explained what happened next … 

James Park: I tried to incorporate all the different elements that you get from bossam, so, like, the pork belly, and he really loves heoja, which is the fermented shrimp paste, and it's really, really funky and salty. And we were actually testing it together, and added a little bit of this, added a little bit of that, and like maybe try to present pork belly on top. And it was good, but it was just one of those like, "Was it all worth the effort for having this dish?" So we kind of tweaked and we just really stemmed down to the flavor that we enjoy from that meal, which was ssamjang, that is the soybean, like, Korean BBQ dipping sauce. So we started as, like, this one idea that we really loved and wanted it to happen, [LAUGHS] but it just didn't happen. But it was a happy accident for the really delicious recipe that ended up becoming something else. 

Dan Pashman: Right, that’s the ssamjang aglio e olio. 

James Park: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: It was sort of like we took what was sort of the base of bossam and then we just, like, stopped there and didn’t do all the other stuff. 

James Park: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

James: Just make it easy.

Dan Pashman: While many people wanted to hear about a specific dish that didn’t make the book, a listener in Philly identified a whole category of pasta she thought was missing …

Person 5: Hi. 

Dan Pashman: Hello. 

Person 5: Big fan. Been listening to The Sporkful for years. I was curious if you considered exploring all the different things you could do with pasta, if you thought about doing dessert pasta?

Dan Pashman: There's one style of pasta dish that my wife Janie was pushing me to include in the book, which is sort of a Central Eastern European — they do a lot of pasta dishes that maybe have, like, sugar and cinnamon, and like crushed nuts, maybe cottage cheese. And there are some versions — there are things with nuts and cinnamon and sugar in Italian cookbooks also. I just couldn't quite get it to work to my — yeah, I wanted to do something that would be different and I couldn't quite figure out what that is. There is a recipe in the cookbook for kugel, which is a Jewish baked pasta casserole dish ... 

Dan Pashman: Don't clap for kugel, it's not that great. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: That's the whole reason why I had to do a new recipe in the book. I'm not the biggest fan of kugel, all right? Like, it should be a dessert pasta. It's too sweet. It's always served with the entrees. It's supposed to be like one of these sweet/savory things, but it's kind of — it's not savory. It's just really sort of mildly sweet. Traditionally, it has cottage cheese and sour cream, cinnamon sugar, like an egg custard, sometimes raisins. I don't love it. So, I set out to try to do a better kugel. It would be better to me, okay? So we took all the sugar out of the kugel, itself, and made it much more savory and tangy. So instead of cottage cheese and sour cream, it's labneh, which is, like, strained yogurt — thick, tangy yogurt — labneh and buttermilk. And that makes it more tangy, more savory, and then we — the sweetness comes from a fruit relish that you drizzle on top. So that's instead of it being kind of, like, mildly sweet, it's sort of, like, full savory sweet combo. So, I think you could eat that for dessert. 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: As we’ve discussed, a huge part of the making of my cookbook was the photography, and many of our hosts had more questions about that. Especially in San Francisco, where the book’s art director and food stylist Jillian Knox, and photographer Dan Liberti, joined me on stage. Our host was Sam Sanders from the podcast Vibe Check, and he asked Dan and Jillian this: 

Sam Sanders: Pasta's been around for a long time. People have been taking pictures of pasta for a long time. Because I see bad photos of other folks’ pasta on my Instagram all the time. What was the single thing y'all did together to make pasta look new? 

Jillian Knox: You know, we didn't want to make the nona's, you know, pasta book. That was like a very — that was like the bold, italic, like, underlined — like, this is not your nona's pasta book. 

Sam Sanders: Mm-hmm. 

Jillian Knox: And I really loved that challenge, as an art director, as a food stylist, as a prop stylist, you know, to transport people into these cultural kitchens. Because, these recipes are multicultural, like they're really embracing different flavors from all around the world. And also, I think colors really help. Like, I'm such a color theorist in general.

Sam Sanders: Yeah. 

Jillian Knox: I think color — using color is really important. And so, stepping outside of using, you know, red and these, like, muted, like, soft sepia tones of, like, Italy, right? Like, we should be in full color experiencing these recipes because they're full of flavor. And also, you know, trusting Dan Liberti and his photography skills. You know, we work so well together.

Dan Liberti: Yeah. Yeah, and it started early with Dan and our conversations that there was — there needed to be, like, in a sense of reality. It had to be like you're in somebody's kitchen or dining room or wherever, apartment, and that it's not gonna be just a pretty picture on a nice piece of wood. 

Dan Pashman: We didn't want it to feel like Italy, and I also didn't want it to feel aspirational. 

Jillian Knox: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: My wife and kids had their hands in there. So it's like, I wanted you to feel like you were with everybody.

Sam Sanders: Just because I'm nosy, I want one or all of you to share a salacious, interesting, crazy BTS moment from the process. It could be fun, it could be anything, whatever. Just like, you won't believe this thing that happened.

Jillian Knox: I mean, okay, it was in the podcast l ... 

Sam Sanders: It's fine. 

Jillian Knox: But the corn was — the trash corn was good. 

Sam Sanders: For those who don't know, a quick set up for them. 

Jillian Knox: That was my favorite moment. Dan's like, "Hey, where are the — you know, what are we — what are we about to do?" I'm like, "Oh, you know what? We need that corn on the cob. Where did it — where did it go?" 

Dan Pashman: The cobs, after the corn had been removed.

Jillian Knox: And Melina's in the kitchen — shout out to Melina.

Dan Pashman: Melina, our other super-talented food stylist.

Jillian Knox: She's here. She's here, too. And she's like, "It's in the trash ..."

Sam Sanders: Ohhh!

[LAUGHING] 

Jillian Knox: I'm like, "Wash it off, girl. We about to use it. Okay? Let's go." Yeah.

[LAUGHING]

Sam Sanders: I love it. I love it. Trash corn.

Jillian Knox: Yup. 

Sam Sanders: Trash corn. Any others?

Dan Liberti: I kept cracking up cause I have this little tiny gear closet. And Dan kept disappearing into the gear closet. And I'm like, "What is Dan doing?" And then he's like, "Hey, I'm gonna use your closet and just do podcast reads."

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Dan Liberti: I think you were doing ad reads or something. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, yeah. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Liberti: Yeah, and so every once in a while, Dan, we were like, "Where's Dan at?", and he's in his little booth in there with the props. 

Dan Pashman: I jerry rigged your close to make it into a recording booth because, you know, the show must go on.

Dan Liberti: Yeah.

Sam Sanders: I once recorded something for something — it's been years — in the trunk of a rental car.

[LAUGHING] 

Jillian Knox: Nice. 

Sam Sanders: You get it done.

Dan Pashman: Was it open or closed? 

Sam Sanders: You can always get out the back seat … 

Dan Pashman: Ohh. 

Jillian Knox: Nice.

Sam Sanders: If you’re ever kidnapped.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: The tea continued to be spilled when one of my recipe developers, Asha Loupy — a.k.a. “The Saucy Spicetress" — also joined us on stage in San Francisco. And Sam got right to it with Asha.

Sam Sanders: Yeah, Asha, recipe developer, what was y'all's biggest fight? 

[LAUGHING] 

Sam Sanders: Be for real. Be for real. 

Asha Loupy: I think there were several times …

[LAUGHING] 

Asha Loupy: Where a recipe would call for half a pound of pasta and you would be like, "There's not enough sauce!" And then, we'd go back and forth and it was like, "Oh, you used a full pound of pasta."

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Sam Sanders: Uh-huh.

Asha Loupy: Hmm.

Dan Pashman: That's true. Yes. Asha had a couple recipes that called for eight ounces, which is a half a pound, a half a package, and every single time I misread the recipe and put a whole pound in and then got to the end and was, like, flummoxed by the results. And every single time it was just 'cause I didn't read it correctly. Which I insisted, despite the objections of, I think, Asha, our recipe editor, Rebecca Marsters, and the book's editor, Cassie, who all objected, but I was like, no, we're gonna put — every single time that we're only calling for half of a package of pasta, in the instructions, we're gonna put a parenthetical that's gonna say, “Make sure you only use half the package!”

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Cause I felt like I can't possibly be the only idiot out there who's gonna misread this. 

Sam Sanders: Yeah. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: That’s what counts as a fight when you’re making a cookbook. Back in Boston, we got some more dirt from one of my other recipe developers, Katie Leird, a.k.a. “Super Nonna”. She’s the one you heard at the start of this episode, who wanted her kids to have an Italian sperm donor. But while Katie was sure about that, she actually had mixed feelings about working with me on this book.

Katie Leaird: I mean, I just grew up loving pasta. But I really fell into love with it and, you know, wanted to make it my career and significant other from the angle of the handmade aspect of it. So, a very different angle from Dan, who wanted to make it, you know, accessible to everybody, and available and mass produced. I really just fell so hard for the shapes that are made literally by two hands and nothing else. And so, it was really funny when Dan first contacted me. I was so psyched, you know, to work on this book with him. And he's like, "Yeah, and so we're gonna use all box pastas that you find in every grocery store," and I was like ... okay. 

[LAUGHING] 

Katie Leaird: I mean, I haven't bought a box of pasta in like a really long time. I actually told my toddler at the time, I was like, "We're gonna go to the grocery store to get some pasta for mommy's work." And she goes, "Mom, they don't sell pasta at the grocery store."

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Across this whole tour, one of my favorite things about the tour was that it gave me a chance to reflect on cascatelli, Anything’s Pastable, and really, my whole 14-year journey of The Sporkful. Often it was your questions prompted these reflections and got some of our hosts to reflect, too. In L.A. I was on stage with Evan Kleiman, who you know as my pasta fairy godmother, and comedian Andy Richter, who was Conan O’Brien’s Late Night sidekick. We got a question that made all of us think about what it means to lead a creative life ...

Sam: Hi I’m Sam. This is my actual first-ever experience with The Sporkful Podcast. I didn't know this existed before …

Andy Richter: Did you just wander in? 

[LAUGHING] 

Sam: So this is actually a question for all three of you: Andy, Evan, Dan. So I really appreciate how all three of you are, like, experts at the thing that you're experts about. And so, like, what I'd be curious about to hear is just, like, how do you obsessionally chase down an idea?

Andy Richter: [LAUGHS] I'm a little bit different in terms of like a lot of people that are in comedy and show business and because I am a collaborator. I'm an improviser. I got involved with groups of people who are available to each other for inspiration. And so that's really kind of more the way that I work, sometimes to my own detriment. Like, I could use a little fire under my ass now and then, but I'm sort of more like, I'm going to remain in fruitful situations and remain open to opportunity. And I think that that probably applies to a more directed sort of course, too.

Dan Pashman: Your thoughts, Evan? 

Evan Kleiman: I mean, it's so interesting that you say that because that's certainly the hallmark of what I do now with Good Food. I mean, there are four of us on the team. We pitch to each other constantly, much like you would pitch ideas ...[Andy Richter: Yeah.] joke ideas or ideas for a scene. 

Andy Richter: That’s where the fun is!

Evan Kleiman: That is where the fun is because when you collaborate like that, you always end up farther down the road than when you're alone.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I mean, I guess I would just add that you know, I recognized in myself early on that I was a person who, like, had a tendency to  get obsessed with things and get really excited about things. Like, I started writing an underground newsletter in high school, and I would, like, be writing and writing on Microsoft Word, you know, upstairs, and my mom would be calling me to dinner. It was the only time that I ever didn't come running for dinner when I was working on this newsletter. I was like, wow, like, I'm really into this. And I realized I was like, oh, like, whatever I'm gonna do in life, like, I want it to feel like this. And kind of what we're all talking about is like there's a certain sort of creative spark that is very exciting. It's a certain type of high, I think, when you find it as, I sort of said this at the end of the Anything's Possible series, but like, as you — as I've gotten older and more experienced, my ideas get more and more ambitious. Because it's kind of like you need a bigger high. You need to conquer something that's more — seems more difficult. And then, you know, ideas have never been hard for me. It's the execution is always the hard part. But, if you can hold on to that feeling of that initial spark and the excitement of the idea, then, for me at least, like, that's what pulls me through when it gets hard. 

Dan Pashman: So I’ve developed strategies for dealing with the tougher parts of the creative process, but that doesn’t mean I always succeed, as a listener in the Twin Cities pointed out. Here’s what she had to say to me and chef Ann Kim: 

Laura: Hi, my name is Laura. 

Dan Pashman: Hi Laura. 

Laura: And something I've appreciated about following both of you is that you both are so willing to try, even when unsure, even when there's failure. And I'm wondering, Dan, from listening to you, you seem to do public failure so well.

[LAUGHING] 

Ann Kim: I think that was a compliment. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I’ll go ahead and take it that way. 

Laura: Truly, I mean your ... 

Dan Pashman: I’m gonna put that on my business card. 

Laura: Your children let you have it. Like, I don't know — was he from Long Island, the pasta die maker?

Dan Pashman: He was from Staten Island ... 

Laura: Staten Island, excuse me. 

Dan Pashman: Which is like Long Island on steroids.

Laura: And he just thought you were an idiot at first. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, yeah. 

Laura: And, but you keep …

Dan Pashman: Yeah, he wasn’t the only one.

Laura: Yeah, right, and yet you keep putting that out there publicly, [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] what is that actually like behind the scenes for you? Have you always been good at failure or comfortable with it? Or what’s that like?

Ann Kim: She's really building you up. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. I know, right. 

Laura: It's really — it’s kind of admirable, really.

Dan Pashman: Well, thank you I think. No ... [LAUGHS] No, thank you. You know, I think you have to have a certain amount of confidence to take it with a grain of salt when people tell you that your ideas are bad. But I've also — you know, like, I've been working in creative fields for 25 years, all right? The Sporkful has been around for 14 years, and not all my ideas work out. But as you get older and more mature and more experienced, you — I think that I am, I'm better now at kind of seeing around the corner. If I really, really know deep in my soul that this is a good idea, then I have the experience to back it up. And when I was starting The Sporkful, like — look, I did The Sporkful for — in 2010 I launched it after getting laid off from six radio jobs in eight years, and the first two years I made no money doing it, and it was not easy, because my wife, we just had our first child, and she had to go back to work so we could have health insurance, and she's sort of like, "It kind of sucks that I'm working and being away from our daughter, so that you can follow your dream." And I just kept — I was like, "But you know, I really think I'm onto something here," like, I really, really feel it, like, this is a good idea. This show is a good idea. I just need some more time. And then, I got my first book deal in two years and that made it like half a job. And four years in, I got picked up at the New York Public Radio Station, that's when it became a real job. And then, like, 2017 we won our first James Beard Award, and that was — that was the first time, after seven years — I tell this story now in 45 seconds, but, like, it was seven years. That's a long ass time. And that was — I was like, oh, maybe this isn't about to all fall apart. But, like, the producer in me, because I was a producer for ten years before I started hosting my show, I'm more so probably than some other hosts, I'm able to listen back to the tape of myself and my own recordings and analyze it with distance. And be like, oh, that part where I just droned on for so long about the creative process, that was too long. Like everything I just said, we should cut that down. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] So, when my wife and my kids give me a hard time, part of me is like, that was great tape! That's gonna be so funny in the show! So, you know, the producer in me all along is like, this is gonna make for such a fun show, even if it means that they think my idea sucks. What's your mantra, Ann? Fuck fear?

Ann Kim: Can I say that on the .... 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, sure!

Ann Kim: Yeah! fuck fear, right? [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Fuck fear!

[APPLAUSE] 

Ann Kim: I mean, honestly, because I think when you think about what you're really afraid of, it's usually just your inner voice telling you that, "Oh, my idea is not good enough. It's not valuable enough. I'm going to be judged for this," I think that is one of the number one fears that people have, that what are people going to think of me? But when you can get over that, and it comes with maturity and age and experience, that you really don't give a fuck about what people think, and you just go for it. 

[APPLAUSE] 

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Claire Saffitz: I think we have time for one more question.

Katie: Hi, I'm Katie. So safe to say you've covered a lot of pasta. Have you thought about what other food might be next?

Dan Pashman: I, actually. got lots of versions of this question, and my answer was always the same …

Dan Pashman: I eat a lot of tortilla chips ... That being said, I have a lot of opinions about tortilla chips ... They're too pointy. If they're too big, you can't get them in your mouth ... And if anyone out there works for the tortilla chip company, I want you to contact me, cause I have some ideas ... I want tortilla chips all the time ... Anyway, tortilla chips.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: When cascatelli went viral, I really thought that I'm gonna get, like, big corporations are coming to me now and they're gonna say, like, we want you to design a new “X” for us. And I thought, this is gonna be great. Like, my whole job, I'll just make a podcast and then I'll just eat things and have opinions about them. Like I've already — I'm already doing it! You know? Now, I'm gonna get paid! It's gonna be great and so far none of that has not happened. But I would love to design a tortilla chip for any company that makes tortilla chips out there. And then ... Wait, sorry, what was the rest of the question? I, like, blacked out talking about tortilla chips. 

[LAUGHING] 

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Dan Pashman: That is a wrap on our best of the book tour episodes. If you made it out to one of our live shows — again, thank you for coming, I hope you had as good a time as I did. If you want to see videos and photos from the tour, and much more follow me on Instagram @TheSporkful. And if you didn’t make it out to any of our shows, I hope to see you at one of my upcoming events, in Napa, Martha’s Vineyard, London, and more to come. Man, we're covering a lot of ground. For all the details go to Sporkful.com/events.

Dan Pashman: Before we get to the credits, I want to share this special segment sponsored by Norwegian Cruise Line: 

Dan Pashman: There’s nothing like a cruise to bring people together. And where does a lot of that together time happen? At meal time. And Norwegian Cruise Line keeps raising the standards of cruising with award-winning specialty restaurants and a variety of food and drink options for every taste.

Dan Pashman: In fact, next year, they’re launching a brand new ship called Norwegian Aqua, with a brand new restaurant on board.

Eric Bilodeau: For the new ship coming out, for Aqua, we have a new concept coming up that we never did before. It's a Thai restaurant, a Thai concept. 

Dan Pashman: This is Chef Eric Bilodeau, Director of Culinary Development and Operations for Norwegian Cruise Line. He says this new Thai restaurant has been years in the making.

Eric Bilodeau: We have to make a lot of research to develop a menu. It takes a little while because it's a lot of research. 

Dan Pashman: When they’re getting ready to open a new restaurant on one of their ships, Chef Eric and his team do a lot of brainstorming, and then a lot of eating. It all happens at the NCL test kitchen in Miami.

Eric Bilodeau: We're not making A+ right away the first day, you know? It's constant repetition. We try, we try ... And then once we have something that is more or less solid, then we start to create the menu, and then we start to invite other people, you know, for feedback.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Yeah, those are good days at work, right? 

Eric Bilodeau: Yeah, yeah.

Dan Pashman: When you get to eat well. [LAUGHS]

Eric Bilodeau: Correct. 

Dan Pashman: So when we talk about the process of developing a new menu or revamping a menu, the testing and the re-testing, what do you enjoy about that process?

Eric Bilodeau: The tasting and the re-tasting. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: On an NCL cruise, you’ll have a variety of restaurants to choose from, each featuring menu items that have been painstakingly tested and perfected by Chef Eric and his team. And you can enjoy it all on your schedule and in your style — there are no set dining times and no formal dress codes. 

Eric Bilodeau: No, but really, because like I said earlier, I mean the more you do, the better you become, you know? It's the practice that makes it perfect. So, it's one thing to create a menu, but once, if you exercise the dish two, three times, it's not enough. It's not enough for me to go on board and show it to 35 or 50 cuisinier, who cook there, how to make it. So I need — I need to control it myself. I need to master it first before I can go and pretend I can show the world how to make it. So we're so glad to have a test kitchen in Norwegian Cruise Line. We just enjoy it and we practice and practice and practice. And you know, we take the bad and we correct it, you know, and we make it better and better.

Dan Pashman: So those are the lengths that Chef Eric and his team will go to to make sure that your dining experience on Norwegian Cruise Line is second to none. Of course, on top of the world class dining, there’s so much more happening on the ship itself and you’re constantly traveling to incredible new locations around the world, all while only unpacking once. 

Dan Pashman: Learn more about everything NCL has to offer by visiting NCL.com. That’s NCL.com.

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