Dan Pashman: This episode contains explicit language and mature subject matter.

Dan Pashman: Jamie, I feel like we have to start off just talking hot dogs. 

Jamie Loftus: Yes, please. 

Dan Pashman: I mean, can you describe to me your ideal hotdog?

Jamie Loftus: Yes. I grew up a boiled dog girl. Boiled with just a raw bun, slapped open and that is not how I will be raising my child. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: No disrespect, I think there's no wrong way to eat a hot dog, but I can't do without a grilled hot dog. That's always gonna be the best for me now.

Dan Pashman: What do you like about the barbecue grilled hotdog above other options?

Jamie Loftus: For me, it has the best snap. It's so like carnal sounding, but you're like, you know how your teeth are just chomping through this dead animal or a great vegan substitute for a dead animal? 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: And it's a cathartic feeling the first bite. I'm an all beef girl, but I'm flexible there. The bun, I'm very inflexible on. If it's not toasted, I walk. I'm not interested.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] So the hotdogs that you prefer today though, are the furthest possible departure from the ones that you grew up with?

Jamie Loftus: Yes, and I guess analyze me as you will.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies it’s for eaters, I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. Today I’m talking with comedian, podcaster, and author Jamie Loftus. You might have heard her podcast My Year in Mensa, about her infiltration into the group for supposed geniuses. She also did the Lolita Podcast, where she looked at representations of the Vladimir Nabokov book in popular culture. Or maybe you know her from the time she butt chugged the novel Infinite Jest, a book that’s become a fave among hyper literate bros. (If you don’t know what butt chugging is, I’m not going to be the one to explain it to you.)

Dan Pashman: Anyway, in a lot of Jamie's work, she seizes on parts of our culture that have taken on outsized roles, and finds the comedy and also deeper meaning in their popularity. So after Mensa and Lolita, what was the natural next step? 

CLIP (HOT DOG AD): Hot dogs are an all American affair ... 

Dan Pashman: Yes, hot dogs. This week Jamie releases her first book, Raw Dog: The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. It’s about what she calls her "Hot Dog Summer" — a road trip across America sampling as many different types of hot dogs as possible. And there are a lot — from Sonoran dogs in the Southwest to bologna-wrapped dogs in Baltimore and chili-covered dogs across the midwest.

Dan Pashman: Jamie's story also gets personal because by the end of the trip, her boyfriend is out of the picture, and she has to confront some of the troublesome aspects of her own relationship to food. We’ll get to all that.

Dan Pashman: But first, you should know that Jamie was always a hot dog connoisseur. We already learned that for her, the snap is paramount, which is true for a lot of us. Although I prefer my snap to come from a natural casing, instead of or in addition to a grill. With Jamie, I wanted to dig deeper. I wanted to hear her thoughts on bun infrastructure. Because as I said to her, I don’t think I’ve ever had a bad hot dog. But I’ve had a lot of bad buns.

Jamie Loftus: Ugh. I feel like under thinking the bun can destroy a hotdog. It's so frustrating. I had like one of my favorite — like, I won't call out the business, but I just really hope they get their shit together. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: It was like the best char grilled hotdog I'd ever had. The toppings were incredible, but the toppings made the bun wet and it was like falling apart in my hand. And I was like, why is this happening? This is so easily fixed. You just need a lightly toasted bun. That's all. And I mean, and I don't even like the bun too toasty cuz I have gum disease and my mouth will explode if the bread is too sharp. So a light toasting.

Dan Pashman: So you can't even go anywhere near a Captain Crunch cereal?

Jamie Loftus: Oh, no. No, banh mi is off limits for me. 

Dan Pashman: No crusty bread. 

Jamie Loftus: It's like a geyser. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] Got it. 

Jamie Loftus: No crusty bread. I could just see a dentist, but that's not really my plan right now.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I've toasted buns and yes, toasting a bun will make it a little — a little stand up to liquid a little bit better. It might make it a little sturdier. 

Jamie Loftus: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: I also, I just don't like when the bun is like a cool room temperature with a hot, hot dog. I just feel like [Jamie Loftus: Yeah.] I want a warm bun. 

Jamie Loftus: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: But I would actually say that the number one best option is a steamed bun.

Jamie Loftus: Oh, okay. I will allow that. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: Like I prefer toasted. I like steamed, but you can't do nothing. You can't do what my dad did and shake it out raw and then slap in a boiled hotdog and be like, this is how I express love. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Jamie Loftus: But like — but that — not that that's bad, but you can — you know, it's, it's easy to do a little more. 

Dan Pashman: Right, right. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: As for toppings, in everyday situations, Jamie’s happy to keep it basic: ketchup, mustard, and relish. Now, there’s a vocal minority who think that ketchup on a hot dog is an abomination, so Jamie says she sometimes she gets heat for that combo.

Jamie Loftus: There's people that — I don't know, if you're a woman on the internet, there's worse evil DMs to receive than like, "You're the dumbest person in the world for liking ketchup." You know? Like I can handle that level of aggression. 

Dan Pashman: Right. Yeah, I actually — this may be controversial. Tell me what you think, Jamie? 

Jamie Loftus: Ooh, okay. 

Dan Pashman: Be honest. 

Jamie Loftus: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: This is a safe space.

Jamie Loftus: Okay 

Dan Pashman: If I'm just talking about a simple dog, to me, that's all I want is ketchup and mustard. 

Jamie Loftus: Great. 

Dan Pashman: I will mix the ketchup and mustard on the plate.

Jamie Loftus: Whoa. 

Dan Pashman: I will do — and my go-to now is 50% ketchup, 50% Coleman's English mustard, which is like —

Jamie Loftus: Oh, nice. It's a good one. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: It's a little spicy. It's got like, almost like a wasabi situation. That, and the ketchup 50-50, swirl it together on the plate, and then dip the hotdog into that combination on a per bite basis rather than topping the hotdog. When you spread the mustard and ketchup on top of the hot dog, you’re gonna get inconsistency. And if you get a little bottle fart situation you’re gonna get a splatter.

Jamie Loftus: Hate a bottle fart.

Dan Pashman: Right. And then you have a big glop of ketchup or mustard in the middle of your hot dog. And you’re gonna have to eat that now or go get a knife or use your finger, spread it around, it’s a mess. 

Jamie Loftus: Disaster. 

Dan Pashman: You keep those condiments separate, it allows you to regulate exactly how much of each you want in every single bite.

Jamie Loftus: I think that sounds very chic.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: I think, if you told me that's how they do it in Europe, I'd be like, probably. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Jamie Loftus: I mean, I'm very on board with this. 

Dan Pashman: You might need to write it in your book. 

Jamie Loftus: My question though — I'm gonna have to do some severe revisions. Actually, if you got a copy of the book, throw it away. I'm starting over. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: During the worst of the pandemic, Jamie found herself eating a lot of hot dogs. And she wasn't alone. Hot dog consumption more than doubled in 2020. And that got her thinking — maybe hot dogs could tell her something about America. She decided to travel the country to find out.

Dan Pashman: What were you hoping to learn about hot dogs and about yourself on this journey?

Jamie Loftus: I was hoping I would learn nothing about myself, which didn't pan out. But, you know, I was like, I would like to eat 200 hotdogs and learn nothing about myself.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I think we've established that you care a lot about hotdogs.

Jamie Loftus: I really do. 

Dan Pashman: Why? Why do you care so much about hotdogs?

Jamie Loftus: Outside of just like a childhood attachment to them, I'm really interested in symbols that feel innocuous and I think that that's like a lot of what I've gravitated to in the work I've done. Everyone has an opinion on a hotdog and it's something that we're told from the time we're very young, that it's a very American thing. But why do we consider it so American? Why are we so compelled to have an opinion on it? And what does that mean?

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Jamie set off with her boyfriend, and their cat and dog, on a cross country road trip to answer these questions. And beyond the big picture stuff, she also had some practical concerns … like how was she going to sample 4 or 5 hot dog places every day, many days in a row, while minimizing damage to herself, her digestive system, and her traveling companions? Fortunately, she had a strategy.

Jamie Loftus: I would get the classic style, whatever the house specialty is. I would take a bite. I would consider the bite, I would consider the snap. I would have my partner take a bite. He would do the same. I would do it again, and then I would never let myself finish the hotdog. I broke this rule constantly. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Jamie Loftus: But theoretically, you're like, if you're gonna survive the day and we have to get from New Mexico to the middle of Texas, we cannot be eating the whole hotdog at every stop, especially if it's a chili dog. That will be a catastrophe for the group. And so the rule was broken and the price was paid.

Dan Pashman: Let's tick through some of the places. Obviously, we can't get all of them, but there's a few that I want to highlight. 

Jamie Loftus: Great. 

Dan Pashman: You started off in L.A.? 

Jamie Loftus: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Heading across the southwest of America. Hot dog Ruiz Los Chiopolones in Tucson. This is the Sonoran dog.

Jamie Loftus: Amazing. One of my — ugh, such a strong start to the trip. I love that place so much. It is independently owned and run. They have since opened a carwash attached to it. I don't know why, but they have.

Dan Pashman: What — just so people know — what is a Sonoran dog?

Jamie Loftus: The Sonoran hotdog is a food tradition from Mexico. I think the best American ones are in the South, usually sold by Mexican street vendors. One of the most interesting buns you could find in the entire world.

Dan Pashman: Why?

Jamie Loftus: Because it's a little — the bun encapsulates the hotdog. Um, it's a little banana boat situation, and it's really, really delicious. It is — it can get a little wet. But at this specific place, they toast the bun ever so slightly. It's a bacon-wrapped, so it's a variant on a danger dog. 

Dan Pashman: Danger dog is the Southern California name for a bacon-wrapped hot dog. In both cases, the dogs trace back to Mexican street vendors. As for the Sonoran dog, after being wrapped in uncooked bacon …

Jamie Loftus: It's grilled, it has beans on it, it has onions, it has tomatoes, and as well as mayo, mustard, a little bit of salsa.

Dan Pashman: Now, if I'm being honest, I have not had a bacon wrapped hot dog. 

Jamie Loftus: [GASPS] 

Dan Pashman: I know, I know. It's a real oversight in my life as a hot dog eater. I gotta make it happen.

Jamie:  I wish I could have one for the first time again. They're very special.

Dan Pashman: All right. Clown Dog Hot Dog Parlor in Albuquerque. 

Jamie Loftus: Oh my God. 

Dan Pashman: You got something there called the "Three-Ring Circus", which is an all-beef dog topped with onion rings, sliced jalapenos, cheddar, and SpaghettiOs. 

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. I don't know.

Dan Pashman: I don't know how that's gonna hold together.

Jamie Loftus: Weirdly, the problem wasn't it holding together. The problem for me was SpaghettiOs on the hot dog. No disrespect to Clowndog because I do like when a hot dog place has like a few experimental hotdogs. It wasn't like that was the only one they had. You could get a bunch of kind of normal style hot dogs. But then they also have like — hey, what about this?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: Which is always fun to see. Like I've had peanut butter and jelly hotdogs where you're like, well, that was disgusting, but now I know. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: And this one, I intentionally chose because I was like, I don't think I will find this anywhere else. I really was — I was on board with two out of three rings. The onion rings: great. The jalapenos: great. SpaghettiOs ...

Dan Pashman: Oh, I didn't even make that connection because it's called Clown Dog. I just thought three ring circus, clowns. But no, it's actual rings — onion rings, sliced jalapeno rings, and SpaghettiOs are rings.

Jamie Loftus: Yeah, pretty brilliant concept.

Dan Pashman: I'm just putting that all together. Yeah. 

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. I just wish that there was a different third ring.

.Dan Pashman: Next up, Coney Island Hot Wieners in Oklahoma City.

Jamie Loftus: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Now these are Coney Island dogs, which are also well known in Cincinnati and Detroit. 

Jamie Loftus: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: The classic Coney dog is chili, onions, mustard. 

Jamie Loftus: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: What makes a great Coney dog?

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. When I'm having a Coney dog, I kind of want them to just like, go for it. Again, the bun infrastructure is important, but I like, give me as much cheese as humanly possible. See if you can overwhelm me. Go nuts on the chili. I love different chili recipes.

Dan Pashman: I love a Coney Dog and I feel like a lot is riding on that chili. 

Jamie Loftus: A lot is riding on the chili. Yeah, and I really liked the chili in New Mexico, just in terms of my preferences. I like Southwest Chili. And I like the chili in Varsity Atlanta a lot. The Oklahoma ones I thought were were very good and very underrated. You don't see Oklahoma brought up very frequently in hotdog conversations.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Of course, any hot dog based road trip would have to include a stop at Nathan’s Famous on New York City’s Coney Island. That's the place that gave Coney dogs their name. And there’s another reason this is a key destination. The annual Nathan’s 4th of July Hot Dog Eating Contest. That’s the one broadcast on national TV, it’s a huge spectacle. Jamie planned her road trip so she’d be there for it. And the more she learned, the more enthralled she became with the contest.

Jamie Loftus: The history of the world is contained in the Nathan's Hot Dog eating contest history. I think it is a very American thing also to take something that should just be innocuous and fun and turn it into a fucking, meat grinder, life-ruining thing, that is broadcast for profit. But that said, I love that damn contest. I love it so much. I love watching it. I loved going. 

[CLIP FROM NATHAN’S 4TH OF JULY HOT DOG EATING CONTEST] 

Jamie Loftus: This legendary New York ad guy named Morty Matz, who also invented the perp walk, he invented the contest sometime in the seventies, but would always lie and give you like these wild fake stories. All lies. It was just started as to promote Nathan's.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Eventually, Morty Matz passed the hot dog contest baton to a guy named George Shea and that’s when it really took off. In 2001, Shea started promoting the contest more heavily, seeding stories in major newspapers that competitive eating was the next big trend. He came up with the idea of a mustard belt, to be given to the champ. He brought a touch of PT Barnum to the whole event. 

CLIP (GEORGE SHEA): They say that competitive eating is the battle ground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for men's souls, my friends ...

Dan Pashman: George also helped bring a Japanese competitive eater named Takeru Kobayashi to America. Kobayashi is one of the most legendary competitive eaters of all time. He basically made competitive eating popular here.  

Jamie Loftus: He had technique, he was a showman. Like he was very fit. And so George Shea, you know, promotes him and promotes him and promotes him until there is a viable white male American competitor, who's Joey Chestnut, who's still champion of the world. I hope to marry him one day, but it's complicated.

Dan Pashman: Once Joey Chestnut came on the scene and showed he could keep up with Kobayashi, George Shea stoked a rivalry between the two. But the rivalry was about more than just two great competitors. Here’s George Shea in ESPN 30 for 30 documentary called The Good, The Bad, and The Hungry.

[MOMENTOUS MUSIC] 

CLIP (GEORGE SHEA):  I have always used pro American rhetoric. The issue is as someone who's competing this from an international basis, you have to understand that there's an American hero, and you can be a hero in the same exact way, but you can't be an American hero, because you weren't American. 

Dan Pashman: So he was playing upon nativist tendencies and tropes, which all came to a head when Joey Chestnut beat Kobayashi for the first time in 2007. Some audience members, right on cue, started shouting racist, anti-Asian statements at Kobayashi when he lost. Kobayashi has since alleged that George Shea’s company treated him unfairly, imposing highly restrictive contracts.

Dan Pashman: There have been other issues under George Shea’s leadership. Eating competitions used to be all genders, so men and women were competing in the same contests. But when Shea took charge, he split up competitions by gender. This pretty much ensured that women would be treated as second class. They’d be on ESPN3 instead of ESPN and they’d make less in prize money. 

Jamie Loftus: So there is weirdly a lot of systemic issues within competitive hotdog eating that I was really fascinated by.

Dan Pashman: Jamie got to see all of this herself when she went to Nathan’s on the 4th of July in the middle of Hot Dog Summer. And she wasn’t disappointed.

CLIP (GEORGE SHEA): What greater fortune! [MUSIC] 

Jamie Loftus: The events are just like WWE grade, like freaky nationalist excitement. 

CLIP (GEORGE SHEA): Of life, itself, he's written on the world. I believe that in the shining machinery of our minds ... 

Jamie Loftus: George Shea, for all of the things I just told you about, like he's a really effective emcee. 

CLIP (GEORGE SHEA): For his is the blood of a nation, and his is ever onward and to the breech ... 

Jamie Loftus: The things he says about Joey Chestnut, he started one intro by being like, “When he was born his mother said, ‘You are of my flesh, but you are not of me, you are of the gods.’” 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: I was like, wow. I wanna feel about someone the way this guy feels about Joey Chestnut.

CLIP (GEORGE SHEA): The nation's famous champion of the world ... JOEY CHESTNUTTTTTT!!!!! [CROWD CHEERING] 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Coming up, Jamie highlights a few more stops on her road trip, including one dog that she and I both love. And she tells us how hot dogs came to be considered a quintessential American food. Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman, and I've got a couple of important pasta reminders for you. First off, Sfoglini’s cascatelli is now available at 1200 Walmart locations across America! And that’s not Walmarts, but it’s a lot of them. And the price there is very good, so head over to Walmart and get yours today. Also, Sfoglini now has plenty of variety packs for sale, you get 2 boxes each of my three shapes: cascatelli, quattrotini, and vesuvio. Get those at sfoglini.com. That's S-F-O-G-L-I-N-I .com. Thanks.

Dan Pashman: Now back to Jamie Loftus, whose new book is Raw Dog: The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. We’re giving away a free copy to one lucky subscriber to our newsletter, details at the end of the show. Now, as we get back to the conversation, heads up that towards the end of the show there’s some discussion of disordered eating.

Dan Pashman: When Jamie set out on the cross country road trip, she wanted to understand how hot dogs became this symbol of America and Americana. Hot dogs come from German and Polish immigrants who brought their sausage traditions here. Now, it’s the food we most associate with the 4th of July. It’s the iconic food of baseball, America’s pastime. So, how did that happen? 

Jamie Loftus: My takeaway in researching the book was a lot of it is just marketing, which feels like a very American thing too, of just there's been a lot of vested interest in marketers over the years of telling you that this is the American food.

Dan Pashman: These marketers came up with all kinds of legends over the years about who brought the hot dog to the American masses, and how. One involves a British guy who thought German sausages would do better than ice cream at baseball games on a rainy day. Another was at the St. Louis World’s Fair in 1904, where one vendor was selling sausages. He allegedly gave out gloves to protect his customers’ hands from the hot meat, until he realized that a bun was a better solution. All of these stories have something in common.

Jamie Loftus: They're not true. Like, it's not a very sexy — like, it just sort of happened over time. 

Dan Pashman: In other words, there’s not a great one-sentence answer about how hot dogs became so popular, so American. And it wasn’t one moment. It happened over decades, although their growth did accelerate during one period.

Jamie Loftus: I think that they really became popular starting in the late twenties during the depression, because that was when people suddenly needed really cheap food all the time.

Dan Pashman: And you say in the book, but a lot of those myths are these sort of like, Bootstrap stories. It's like —

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: It was a man had an idea and set off on this mission and, you know, single handedly with no help from anybody, made hotdogs a thing.

Jamie Loftus: Right. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Why do myths like that tend to gain purchase in America, do you think?

Jamie Loftus: Oh, I mean, I think it just like plays in very well to the like classic American dream mythology. I think that we see like a lot of tech companies sell these kinds of myths today, maybe less effectively, where it's like, well, I worked really hard and I had one great idea, and then I busted my ass and I never took a break. And now look at me. And this could be you if you also bust your ass into infinity. They ignore systemic anything [Dan Pashman: Right.] that would prevent you from being wildly successful.

Dan Pashman: Right. So they're actually selling two myths. One myth is the idea that, you know, like this sort of American dream idea that like anybody who has a good idea and works really hard is going to end up rich, which obviously is not true. A lot of people work really hard and end up with very little. But there's also this myth that like, that it was this one person. 

Jamie Loftus: Right. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: As opposed to like, oh, actually, like a lot of people contributed to this and also benefited from government programs and public schools and all the other things that tax dollars go towards.

Jamie Loftus: Totally. Yeah. And I love how you put that because it's — the more I read them, I was like, wow, Americans don't find collective stories to be very sexy. Because I think it's like a pretty cool, effective story to be like, there were waves of German and Polish immigrants who came to the U.S. and brought their food traditions and then made this new thing that people really love and now is like a part of our culture. That's a great story, but it's just like not one that people were interested in selling. It's easier to be like, well I'm the guy so you have to get mine. 

Dan Pashman: Right 

Jamie Loftus: Because I'm the hero of hotdog world or whatever.

Dan Pashman: Right. I mean, I will say it's kind of like, when you can have one main character in a story, it's always gonna be easier for the audience to process that story and to draw larger conclusions from it, as opposed to just saying a bunch of people kind of did this over a number of years. 

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: It's hard to tell that story in a way that people can grab onto it and share it. 

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. Yeah. And that usually — like, those stories mean that you're selling a specific product too. 

Dan Pashman: Right.

Jamie Loftus: It's not just like — cause yeah, like the collective story is like, wow, hot dogs are interesting and good. I would like one, but nothing specific. 

Dan Pashman: Right. Right.

Jamie Loftus: And so it's like, well, how does that serve the interests of a business?

Dan Pashman: So there wasn’t one moment when hot dogs became such a big thing, and that’s partly why you see so many regional variations around the country. You know, if hot dogs had been put on the map by one guy, then that guy’s way of doing it would likely have become dominant. Instead, as hot dogs gained popularity over time, they evolved in different ways in different places. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Jamie saw this firsthand as she continued on her way. One of her favorite stops was Attman’s Deli in Baltimore. 

Jamie Loftus: Oh, this place rocked so much. It was very overwhelming. It was one of the only Jewish deli hotdogs I was able to get on this trip. Their specialty at Attman's is they have fried bologna around their hotdog. The danger dogs that are bacon wrapped go down a little easier because it's like — it's almost like tinsel on a Christmas tree. You're like, oh, it's like decorative. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Right. 

Jamie Loftus: But like the fried bologna, it's like, thick and intense. And you're like, this is so much meat. It's really — it's intense. And so I feel like this hotdog is doing what the Chicago hotdog thinks it's doing. 

Dan Pashman: Of course, a Chicago style hot dog of course has tomato wedges, a pickle spear, sport peppers, onions, mustard, and relish. So a lot of toppings …

Jamie Loftus: The Chicago hotdog markets itself as two meals in one. And you're like, Hmm, a good hotdog and a horrible salad. Interesting. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Since you brought it up, let's talk a bit more about the Chicago dog. You went all over there. You went to the Vienna Beef Factory, Wolfies Super Dog, The Hotdog Box, Fatso's Last Stand. You had a lot of Chicago dogs. What's your overall take on the Chicago dog?

Jamie Loftus: I think there's a lot of great hotdogs in Chicago. I, personally, am not a fan of the Chicago style hotdog, and I've never met someone who didn't grow up in Chicago that is like, I want that. However, that's none of my business. People can like whatever hotdog they want. It's the attitude that bothers me. There's no other region of the country that really makes a personality of not wanting something on a hotdog. But Chicago makes this huge show of hating ketchup. Like I will always ask for ketchup cause I wanna see how angry the person will get. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: And it's always very angry. And I'm like, get a life, get a personality, take a nap, go on a date, take a night class. Like, why are you so mad?

Dan Pashman: One more hot dog place we've gotta talk about, Jamie. 

Jamie Loftus: Ooh.

Dan Pashman: Rutt’s Hut. 

Jamie Loftus: Yeah! Ah, the best one.

Dan Pashman: Rutt’s Hut in Clifton, New Jersey. We did a Sporkful episode of Rutt's Hut. I have a — I mean, I'm from New Jersey, so I have a lot of affinity for Rutt's Hut. Like my grandfather went to — I have a picture of my grandfather in the parking lot of Rutt’s Hut ... 

Jamie Loftus: No way! 

Dan Pashman: Probably a hundred years ago.

Jamie Loftus: Oh, that rocks. 

Dan Pashman: We, like, after my grandfather's funeral, the whole family went to Rutt's Hut. 

Jamie Loftus: Oh my God, that's so special.

Dan Pashman: But you, even as a New Jersey outsider, you fell in love with Rutt's Hut.

Jamie Loftus: When I was doing like my preliminary research, Rutt’s Hut is at the top of everybody's list. Everyone loves it. And I went in with a very, I'm not like other girls' mentality, Rutt’s Hut will not be my favorite hot dog. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jamie Loftus: But it was like immediately very clear that you're like, yeah, this is the greatest thing I've ever tasted in my life. We were there on biker night and so it was like all these horny bikers, eating rippers and you're just like, this is why humanity exists. So that this could happen over a highway

Dan Pashman: Right. And actually, right. It's on the side of a highway. 

Jamie Loftus: Ugh. So good. 

Dan Pashman: It's an old timey building. That you — you, you actually described it very well. You said, “With the proper movie scoring, the building could present as a warm family hangout, a close-knit, but dangerous workplace, or a place to grab a bite after disposing of a body in a Passaic River. And there's no doubt it's been all three at different times.”

[LAUGHING] 

Jamie Loftus: It's the best vibe of the world. You're like, anything could be happening here.

Dan Pashman: Right. And Rutt's Hut is famous for its deep fried hotdogs. 

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: It's classic hotdog is called the "Ripper", cause when you drop it in the fryer, it tears open. So it's a ripper. But you can ask for it to be cooked a little longer. There's a "Weller" ... 

Jamie Loftus: The Weller. I had a Weller.

Dan Pashman: The "Weller" is a little more well done. Then there's the "Cremator", which is like hard enough to bang it on a table.

Jamie Loftus: Yes. That one. I did not order a "Cremator".

Dan Pashman: So, so which one did you have? 

Jamie Loftus: I had one "Ripper" and one "Weller".

Dan Pashman:  And what did you think of the difference between the two? Which would you go back for?

Jamie Loftus: Oh, I mean, I would go for the classic. I would go for the "Ripper". It's like the perfect snap. The "Weller", it was like a challenge, but it was — yeah, it was a little too tough for my blood. But the "Ripper" was like, oh, this is the like perfect hotdog experience.

 MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All in all, Jamie estimates she ate more than 250 hot dogs in 15 states. And over the course of her road trip, even as her views on hot dogs were coalescing, other parts of her life were coming apart. After zigzagging the country together, Jamie and her boyfriend split up. 

Jamie Loftus: It was not the fault of the hot dogs. I feel like that's the most frequently cited question. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Right.

Jamie Loftus: It was just — it was like a relationship that just didn't work out. It wasn't working. And then it was more not working when we were sleeping in fleabag hotels every single night and eating six hot dogs a day. It was just not a good relationship building idea, I think.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] So what you're telling me is that it's not that you had a choice between him and hotdogs and chose hotdogs.

Jamie Loftus: No. No, that's the sexy version of the story though. That's like the good marketing version of the story,

Dan Pashman: Right. See, maybe that's what you should be going with, Jamie. Maybe you should be taking a lesson from all these hotdog marketers.

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. What I meant to say is he extended a hotdog to me and said it's me, the hotdog. And I took the hotdog and I turned and I was wearing six-inch heels and it was all very dramatic. It was exciting.

Dan Pashman: Right. Right. You lit a match and tossed it behind you and he burst into flames. 

Jamie Loftus: Yes. Like in ... Waiting To Exhale. Yeah, I was like that.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: The other thing that you sort of make a glancing reference to in the book is just sort of like your own struggles with body image disordered eating. 

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Explain to me how that works alongside eating five hot dogs a day.

Jamie Loftus: It's really hard. I — yeah, I tried to balance that discussion in the book because — but I think that a lot of women in particular, but not specific, can relate with is like, I really enjoy eating, but it always comes with this sense of shame that is just like cooked into the back of my head, and I can understand a hundred percent where that shame comes from, but it's still there. And it's something that I really have struggled with and something that it felt like — I don't know, it did feel a little twisted to make this assignment for myself. Nobody asked for this. And I was like, okay, this is gonna be the thing that surely I will have to negotiate my relationship with my body in a healthier way because this needs to happen. But it was still really hard 

Dan Pashman: Did this project change anything for you on that front?

Jamie Loftus: I probably will never be like, “I'm totally okay with food forever!” But it did improve, not via how my body felt. It felt pretty horrible to eat five hot dogs a day. But to find writers like Aubrey Gordon and Sabrina Strings — I don't know, reading what women wrote of how they were able to improve and negotiate their relationship with food in a way that made it possible to actually enjoy it, which should be the goal. It's weird cause a lot of the project sort of demanded a disordered eating schedule and I think it was like, when I was resetting from this project, it felt like a cool opportunity to be like, all right, right, whatever I've gotten through this hotdog period. My blue period has ended and now I can sort of rebuild in a way that like — I don't know. I mean, and it's not a hundred percent hit rate, but I feel like I do eat with more of a mind towards like, what am I going to enjoy and when am I hungry versus like a scheduled punishment that I will avoid if I can.

Dan Pashman: Jamie, you said when I asked you about setting out on the road trip what you were hoping to learn about yourself ...

Jamie Loftus: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: You said you, you weren't tr trying to learn anything about yourself, but you failed. 

Jamie Loftus: No. Yes. 

Dan Pashman: So what did you learn about yourself?

Jamie Loftus: I guess like, because hotdogs, they’re such a like cultural icon and in positive and negative ways, it was helpful for me to sort of use it as this kind of like compass for like, well, what is important to me? And like as I was writing the book, the issues that felt like I wanted to discuss the most became very clear through this very bizarre vehicle. And also, we were talking about this like disordered eating trip was weirdly a helpful place to start in rebuilding my relationship to food, and I, you know, I fell in love with Joey Chestnut, so that was kind of a big thing for me. I wasn't in love with him before, but now I am, probably forever. 

Dan Pashman: Why? 

Jamie Loftus: Because he is just some guy, but he has an extraordinary skill and it will probably kill him, but he loves it. And I was like, that's kind of beautiful to me, that you're like, this can't be good for me, but it is the only way I can access joy, so I'm gonna do it.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: That’s Jamie Loftus, her book Raw Dog: The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs, comes out this week. You can also watch videos of her stand up and find more of her work at her website, jamieloftus.xyz. We’re also giving away a copy of Jamie’s book to one lucky winner! In order to enter to win, you have to be subscribed to our newsletter. That will automatically enter you into this and all our giveaways. You really — you want to be on that list. Okay? Giveaways open to U.S./Canada addresses only. Sign up now at sporkful.com/newsletter. 

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, I visit my favorite place to get lobster rolls, a church on Martha’s Vineyard. But this place also has a secret. That’s next week.