Dan Pashman: I heard you say the job of the food stylist is to sell the story of the food and whatever you have to do to sell that story, you do it. 

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: What's the weirdest thing you've ever done to a food to make a food look good on camera? 

Elle Simone Scott: For a breakfast shoot, I literally had to scour through maybe three economy size boxes of cornflakes for the perfect cornflakes for just one bowl of cereal. 

Dan Pashman: Oh, you mean like you were literally going through every single flake?

Elle Simone Scott: Every single flake.

Dan Pashman: Every flake had to be right? 

Elle Simone Scott: Yes. There's a certain diameter. There's like, you know, it can't be folded. 

Dan Pashman: Can't be folded, Elle? 

Elle Simone Scott: Yeah, no. 

Dan Pashman: Those are some of the best corn flakes. This is very subjective. 

Elle Simone Scott: That's why they're all in the box. That's why...but yeah.

Dan Pashman: But if you food styled the bowl of corn flakes that was all folded flakes and showed that to me, I'd be like, "This is the most beautiful bowl of cornflakes I ever saw."

Elle Simone Scott: It's the crunchiest. It’s the best.

Dan Pashman: That's right. That's right. That's what I'm saying. 

Elle Simone Scott: That's not what they want to sell. And there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. 

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Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies, it’s for eaters, I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Happy New Year! Happy New Year! I hope you had a great holiday season. I hope you stayed safe and stayed healthy and managed to eat something delicious. OK, let's do this. 

Dan Pashman: Elle Simone Scott is a person who’s deeply curious about stories, food stories, and human ones. As you heard, she says that food styling is really about telling the story of the food. She’s been a food stylist for shows on Bravo, Food Network, and now, America’s Test Kitchen. You’ve probably seen her on ATK’s TV show on PBS. In 2019, she became the show’s first Black regular on-air contributor. She’s also the founder of SheChef, a networking and mentoring organization for women chefs of color. Now, Elle has a new podcast called The Walk-In, where she talks with people who work in food about their struggles in the industry. Like I said, food stories and human ones. We’ll get into that show a bit later. Now listen, Elle can make just about any food look amazing. She’s had a lot of practice, thanks in part to her family, going back to her great grandmother, Ann Jordan Ford. Ann was a baker, and ran the kitchen at a Jewish nursing home when Elle was a kid. Elle says that made sense. She grew up Seventh Day Adventist, which is a Christian religion that has some overlap with Judaism, including dietary restrictions similar to kosher rules.

Elle Simone Scott: So I was introduced to like challahs and lox and kugels and Bialys and all these wonderful things that, you know, I mean, I thought all kids were eating like that. You know, smoked smoked fish, smoked sable? I come from a family of really good cooks. I'm not the best cook in my family. I'm the only one who has pursued it professionally. 

Dan Pashman: Who is the best cook in your family? 

Elle Simone Scott: I will never, ever give my cousin the satisfaction of calling out her name. 

[LAUGHING]

Elle Simone Scott: I just, I won't do it. She knows who she is. 

Dan Pashman: And I heard you say in an interview that you grew up in a family where it was OK and sometimes even encouraged to ask why. Tell me more about that as it relates to food. 

Elle Simone Scott: I always care about where recipes come from, who made the first fill in the blank, how food is used as ritual and cultures. I think that the allowance of asking why made me feel like I could move through the world being very curious and expecting answers. 

Dan Pashman: And it sounds like maybe in particular made you curious about people. 

Elle Simone Scott: I remember knowing or being aware that there is depth to people, I think, from a really young age. So I definitely have always looked at people and wondered what their life story was.

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Dan Pashman: After college, Elle’s curiosity led her to a career as a social worker. She moonlighted cooking in restaurants. But Elle felt especially connected to social work. She says to be any good at the job, you have to have certain personality traits.

Elle Simone Scott: You have to have some sort of fearlessness about you, because you, as a social worker, you can definitely find yourself in places and spaces you've never been before. And you have to know how to navigate that in an instant. You know, I'm always looking at a situation on what is the solution. I don't spend a lot of time on the problems. And they're really just giving a damn, you know, like you got to give a damn about the people. You can't just be all about you in your head all the time, you know? I think that that kind of selflessness is required, but it can be to a fault. 

Dan Pashman: Is that sometimes something that you have to a fault? 

Elle Simone Scott: Yes, absolutely. It's more about the boundaries and the balance. You know? But I think that that's something that you can develop over time. It's difficult to turn off the part of you that belongs to your job. So you have to work extra hard to create boundaries. 

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Dan Pashman: When the Great Recession hit in 2008, Elle got laid off from her job as a social worker. She started working more in restaurants. At one job in particular, she picked up a lot of new skills.

Dan Pashman: Tell me about cooking on the cruise ship. What did you learn there?  

Elle Simone Scott: Wow. Well, I learned that I was a little bit sheltered and I had a blast. It was my favorite job. I grew up very religious. So, I had quite an eye opening experience. 

Dan Pashman: So you weren't just cooking, you were dancing in the conga lines? Is that what you're telling me? 

Elle Simone Scott: Oh, yeah, definitely. I worked on a cruise ship that toured the Hawaiian Islands. So I did a lot more luau-ing and parlaying than the average.

Dan Pashman: More important than learning to party, Elle learned how to run a kitchen, how to work long hours, deal with a crisis. Like when the ship was stuck in a storm out at sea and couldn’t dock. She had to come up with a menu using only the ingredients they had on hand. They couldn’t get anything from shore like usual. Then she and her team had to cook and serve the meals with the ship rocking back and forth in the waves. 

Elle Simone Scott: People say if you work on a cruise ship, anyone will hire you. And it's pretty much true. 

Dan Pashman: After about two years on the cruise ship, Elle decided to make cooking her career. She went to culinary school. Eventually, she started working behind the scenes for various cooking shows as a chef and food stylist. 

Dan Pashman: In an interview, you once said, “I can look at the food and tell you what people will find appealing about it. And my job is to make sure it looks appealing until we get the shot.” So I'm going to name a food and I want you to tell me what people will find appealing about it. 

Elle Simone Scott: OK.

Dan Pashman: What is the key to styling this food beautifully?

Elle Simone Scott: I like this game. This is fun.

Dan Pashman: Number one, chicken and dumplings.

Elle Simone Scott: So people's eyes are usually going to go straight to the dumpling. So in this case, the shape, the uniformity of the dumpling, the size, the dumplings to chicken ratio. The chicken is a little bit more difficult to discern because it's probably shredded. So like it has to look hot. If it's been sitting, the chicken is sinking, the dumplings are sinking. It's just looking really sad. So making sure it looks hot and your dumplings look cute. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Elle Simone Scott: That's that's how you do it. 

Dan Pashman: OK, next one. Beef bulgogi. 

Elle Simone Scott: Oh, beef bulgogi. This is a good one. OK. So all of the vegetables, the bean sprouts, like I don't particularly want any sprouts with the heads popped off. Like, if they're bean sprouts, I want to see the whole sprout. You know, just making sure all your vegetables look fresh. Usually, that's like holding them in water before you style the food. You know, making sure that the beef is a good cut, that it's cooked well, doesn't want to look dried out. 

Dan Pashman: Got it. Last one. We're going to get tougher here now, Elle. Are you ready? 

Elle Simone Scott: OK, I'm ready. 

Dan Pashman: Banana date smoothie. 

Elle Simone Scott: This...you're right. This one is a little tricky. Well, anytime you're making a smoothie or anything that involves, like cold temperatures, ice, cream. You're going to have to keep making it fresh. And when you have a smoothie that has multiple ingredients like that, if there are dates inside the milkshake, you want to make sure that some of those dates are pressed against the glass on the inside. So you can see all the components. If it's a topping, just making sure that the pieces don't look indigestible as it relates to drinking a milkshake. Like you have to make it make sense. Like this, can I drink? Can those dates fit through my straw? Like, let's make it make sense. Right? But making sure that it stays cold and looks foamy and delicious and you can see all the ingredients. 

Dan Pashman: Oh my God, this is already making me hungry and thirsty. 

Elle Simone Scott: Oh, yeah. Now, I want a milkshake like that. Thanks, Dan. Thanks.

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Dan Pashman: Like I said, Elle knows how to make just about any dish look amazing. Coming up, she takes her food styling game to the next level, and starts appearing on camera, when she comes to America's Test Kitchen. Then later in our conversation, she gets personal about her new podcast and about being diagnosed with cancer. Stick around.

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+++BREAK+++

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Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman.

Dan Pashman: OK, back to my conversation with Elle Simone Scott. In 2019, Elle moved from behind the scenes to in front of the camera. She became the first Black, regular on-air contributor for America’s Test Kitchen. ATK is known for going to extreme lengths to figure out the best recipe for something. Elle shares the findings. Like when the test kitchen made 200 pounds of baked potatoes to determine how to make a perfect one. Elle joined Bridget Lancaster to report: 

CLIP (ELLE SIMONE SCOTT): Bridget, some crazy things are happening in the world with baked potatoes and it has to stop. 

CLIP (BRIDGET LANCASTER): I know. 

CLIP (ELLE SIMONE SCOTT): Immediately. First, we're cooking our potatoes in the microwave. 

CLIP (BRIDGET LANCASTER): Not good. I've done it. 

CLIP (ELLE SIMONE SCOTT): Not good. I've done it, too. 

CLIP (BRIDGET LANCASTER): Right. 

CLIP (ELLE SIMONE SCOTT): And it cooks unevenly. It cooks from the inside out. We also cook our potatoes in foil. 

CLIP (BRIDGET LANCASTER): I've done that too. 

CLIP (ELLE SIMONE SCOTT): And it traps in all of the moisture and it doesn't give us a tasty potato. 

CLIP (BRIDGET LANCASTER): Nu-uh.

Dan Pashman: Even though Elle starting appearing on TV for America’s Test Kitchen, she kept styling food too.

Dan Pashman: So you start food styling for ATK and you also do food styling for their book, How to Cocktail, which was your first time styling drinks.

Elle Simone Scott: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: How is styling drinks different from styling foods? 

Elle Simone Scott: Time is a little less on your side. You know, like food lives longer than ice cubes, that's for sure. You know? Learning how to make garnishes and trying to do something that you didn't already see on, like Pinterest or something. You know, trying to be original with orange slices like. You know? Good luck with that, right? 

Dan Pashman: But like, speaking of orange slices, can I just vent for a minute, Elle, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I feel like the orange wheel...

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: The full circle slice, with the one slit taken out of it so that it rests on the rim. I know that it looks nice, but it's impossible to squeeze that into your drink. 

Elle Simone Scott: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: It just kind of buckles and mushes. And now it's all over your hands and not in your drink. 

Elle Simone Scott: Well, it shouldn't even be in your drink. Like the orange should really just be complimenting what's already in the drink. Like the drink is made with orange so sometimes the orange is just say, "Hey, this drink has orange citrus." 

Dan Pashman: I'm not supposed to be squeezing that into my drink? 

Elle Simone Scott: No, no. It's really...it's literally just garnish.

Dan Pashman: Do you eat it? 

Elle Simone Scott: You can. You can. Can I tell you a secret though?

Dan Pashman: Please. Yes. 

Elle Simone Scott: I don't eat garnishes from cocktails. If I'm at a restaurant, I don't eat the garnish. They're usually in a little container that if they don't use it all in the day, they put it in the refrigerator and then people put their hands in there to put the garnish on the drink. I usually just say no thank you on the garnish, you know? I mean, unless it makes a difference. Like, of course, if you have, like, a martini, you need the olives. Right?

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Elle Simone Scott: That's kind of how it goes. But if it's not necessary, if orange is already in my cocktail, I would prefer if you didn't put an orange on it. 

Dan Pashman: So you're telling me that when I take that garnish that other people have already been rubbing their hands all in and then I smush it into my hand in attempt to squeeze that juice into the drink, now it's running down my arm. 

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: It's sort of doubly disgusting, is what I'm learning here.

[LAUGHING] 

Elle Simone Scott: So the germaphobes, such as myself, yes. I'm totally grossed out right now. 

Dan Pashman: The image on the cover of the How To Cocktail book, did you style that one? 

Elle Simone Scott: That's my hand. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Wow. 

Elle Simone Scott: That's me.

Dan Pashman: There's a drink that is in a...um...I'm so bad at remembering the names of different kinds of glasses, but it's like the shallow round glass.

Elle Simone Scott: Oh, it's a coupe. The coupe glass.

Dan Pashman: The coupe glass. Yes. 

Elle Simone Scott: Yes. Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Yes, the coupe glass. Right. So it has a stem and then it has a bowl that's kind of shallow and very round and bulbous. 

Elle Simone Scott: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: And the cover of how the cocktail has a drink in there, with the color of the drink itself, it's like a deep reddish-orange. And it has a beautiful thin layer of white foam across the top. And then you're holding like a toothpick with this cherry dangling over the drink. And the cherry has a little drip drop of cherry juice just...just falling off of the cherry. It's like almost in mid-air. 

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: It looks so delicious. And there's something about...I feel like I might have written about how, like when you're trying to sell orange juice, it's better to have the picture show the orange juice pouring, like as opposed to just a glass of orange juice. Like, motion. 

Elle Simone Scott: Yes

Dan Pashman: The fact that you see—the fact that even though it's a still image, the drop off that cherry is about to fall into the drink suggests motion, and it makes the image so much more compelling to me. 

Elle Simone Scott: That was one of the things that we worked so hard for in the book, is to give the beverages where it made sense, that motion that makes it so exciting. You know, like there are lots of like ice cube drops that give up splash. There are some milkshakes kind of pouring off the side of the glass, some caramel coming off the side of the glass, definitely leaning into a lot of motion for the cocktails. That was a great experience. I mean, we were tossing ice cubes from across the room trying to get a certain...I wish I were exaggerating when I say that but we were doing everything.

Dan Pashman: Did you have to like bring in Steph Curry to, like—getting an ice cube into a glass from across the room is not easy. 

Elle Simone Scott: What? Like Drake said, “I'm Steph Curry with the pot.” It is me. It is I. It is I. 

Dan Pashman: Right. And as you said it was your hand there on the cover holding that toothpick that's got the cherry on the end of it. Is that common for you as a food stylist? How often do your hands end up in a photo op?

Elle Simone Scott: Oh, it’s very common. You know, and also, you know, at America's Test Kitchen, we're working a lot harder on representation. I work there. I'm a part of that company. I'm a part of that family. And so my family is a part of that family, you know? And so I want my family to look at everything, all the work that I do and know that I'm not just talking to any one group of people. I'm talking to the world about food. And so having brown hands, having all kinds of hands in our food photos is extremely important. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. So it's so interesting. I saw an Instagram post a little while back by Yewande Komolafe, who's been a guest on our show. You may have crossed paths with her. She's a recipe developer, food stylist. 

Elle Simone Scott: I love her, amazing food stylist. 

Dan Pashman: Fantastic. And she was talking about how she had making the conscious decision to include her own hands in more of the photos that she posts of her food.

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And it was like kind of an eye opening moment for me that I just, you know, it was probably a bias that I have that I hadn't really investigated. 

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: If you just show me a picture of beautiful food, I would probably on some level without not even consciously, my head would assume that a white person made it. And it just made me more aware of noticing whose hands are appearing in the photos. 

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: That beautifully styled dish that I make swipe through on Instagram to thinking more carefully about who made this, who came up with it, who made it look so beautiful, who photographed it and thinking about all the people that were involved in that. 

Elle Simone Scott: Yeah. It also helps to remind where equity and representation are and is not, right? Like when you see a set of brown hands for the first time in a photo, it reminds you that it's something that you’ve never seen before. And then it gets you to thinking about, you know, who's working in food media? Who has access to telling food stories? And, you know, it plays a huge role in what stories are being told about food and how. You know? And what is not being told about food, you know, what's being left out. 

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Dan Pashman: Over the past few years, as Elle’s career has progressed and she’s found her work, and her hands, on book covers. She’s also been struggling with something else very serious. Something that’s had a big impact on her personally and professionally 

Dan Pashman: So in 2016, you were diagnosed with ovarian cancer at the age of 40, as you discussed publicly before. 

Elle Simone Scott: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: And I know the cancer recurred last spring. 

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: First off, how are you doing? 

Elle Simone Scott: I'm doing well. I've had—I had surgery. I was out for a while. The tumor was operable, which is always great. Both times very early detection, which can be a game changer. You know? You never know what it will turn out to at the end of the day. But ovarian cancer is one of the cancers that is always very likely to reoccur. But, you know, overall, I'm doing well. I'm just...I'm living life from day to day. Cancer is probably the maybe the fifth thing I think about every day. You know, it's not on the some of the...top of my list. I don't live that way anyway, you know? And I definitely encourage people to always live life first. Think about...think about things you can't change later, you know?

Dan Pashman: Has it affected your ability to do your job or your work in any way? 

Elle Simone Scott: I can't go into the studio and do food styling because of the pandemic. You know, with COVID, I'm considered immune compromised because anyone could be tested positive for COVID at any given time. You know? I was actually thinking about that today. It's funny that you mention it. It just made me a little sad. Like, man, I really miss food styling. I miss it. You know? 

Dan Pashman: What do you miss about it?

Elle Simone Scott: I mean, it's my passion work. It just brings me joy, like making food look in a way that the people who created the recipes makes them feel good for having created. It is more than what the world sees. You know, when someone works on a recipe for months and they see it finally come to fruition in print, it's getting ready to go on a book, you know? It's getting ready to go out into the world. It’s like grooming your kid to be the president, not the current, but the president. You know? And like knowing that they're going to do the great job. You know, just preparing something that you know is going to be great going out to the world. And I get to make it look beautiful for them and to see them have that pride behind making an awesome recipe. It means a lot. 

Dan Pashman: I would imagine that, I know some people who've had chemo, it affects their taste. And any one of us who loves food, loves to eat, takes a lot of pleasure and food, sometimes uses food as a comfort. 

Elle Simone Scott: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: It must be hard, I would imagine, to be in a difficult situation in life and then not be able to sort of find that same comfort in food. 

Elle Simone Scott: Some advice someone gave me though, a friend that had gone through chemo before I got started the first time. She said, "Don’t eat things that you like while you’re on chemo. Because if you taste it while you’re on chemo and it tastes bad it can kind of ruin your life.”

Dan Pashman: Oh, interesting.

Elle Simone Scott: And so, that’s kind of what I do. I have some things that I can really stomach through chemo.

Dan Pashman: So, what are—tell me a couple foods that are on your "Do not eat list", during chemo.

Elle Simone Scott: Um, my eat list is probably an easier list to share.That’s probably an easier list. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Elle Simone Scott: While on chemo, I eat lots of things like umami heavy things. Like miso soup tastes great to me. Any kind of Asian food, curries, masala. Any of it. I love it. I can deal with it. Short of that, it becomes more complicated.

Dan Pashman: While undergoing chemo, Elle says she found an outlet hosting her new podcast, The Walk In:

[CLIP OF The Walk-In]

CLIP (ELLE SIMONE SCOTT): Every restaurant cook knows that the walk in refrigerator is where you go when you need a moment to cry, to confide in a friend or to collect your composure. It’s the place where the pressure to appear in control falls away. Where you’re allowed to feel your feelings and get real about the hard stuff. From America’s Test Kitchen, I’m Elle Simone Scott and this is The Walk-In.

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Dan Pashman: Just as the walk-in is the safe space in a restaurant, Elle tries to create a safe space in her podcast. She talks with chefs, food writers, and more about their experiences in the food industry. Writer Toni Tipton-Martin talks about growing up as a chubby kid and how that influences her today. Chef Kia Damon confesses she struggles with imposter syndrome. The show seems to bring together a lot of the threads of Elle’s journey. The curiosity about people that traces back to her childhood, her instincts as a social worker, connecting with all different people, and her experience as a chef. She says like social workers, chefs also tend to have certain things in common.

Elle Simone Scott: If you've never been in the world of cooking, like in it, like the belly of the beast, so to speak. You can easily be like, "Why would you want to be doing that? Don't your feet hurt. Don't you miss your family?" And you're like, yeah, I do. You know? But there's something—there's something in us, of food people. And I don't know what that is. I call it a seed, but it's something in us that just is so passionate in love and driven. It's the kind of job that gives you instant satisfaction. I think food people really do have a need for that instant satisfaction. Even if it's just from themselves. You know? Like, I did this thing. This thing is good. I know it. And now I can move on to the next thing. You know? 

Dan Pashman: Something also just about the seeing the fruits of your labors frequently. And like, there's probably a bit of an adrenaline factor factor to it as well. 

Elle Simone Scott: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The pressure...the pressure is great. It's like good applied pressure. 

Dan Pashman: Right. Now look, the world of food and restaurants, you know, like there are people who we all have our struggles and there are people with mental health issues in every line of work in life. I do feel like it comes up a lot in the restaurant world. And you, certainly, have had a lot of conversations along those lines with folks on The Walk-In. Is it that working in restaurants creates some of these mental health issues or do people who may be predisposed to end up working in restaurants? 

Elle Simone Scott: I think the answer is yes to both of those, because the food and beverage industry is one of the very few industries that does not discriminate against people's personal backgrounds. Right? Like they don't have the best track record on race and gender, but like in terms of, you know, mental health and or past, you know, we don't really discriminate on that. So you can have all kinds of people from all walks of life in the kitchen at any given time. So you get very abusive people, people who are abusive in the world come to work and be abusive at work. You know? Because they're a Michelin star chef. They make the best food. We want our restaurant to make the most money. We don't really care what it takes. We don't care whose expense it's at. And I think that's really where the problem lies, you know? But I think COVID has done something for us, something very positive in the food world. And I know it sounds really strange because a lot of people are out of jobs, but I think it has kind of leveled the playing field. You know, like there's no such thing as a five star restaurant right now. Right? You know, like everyone's a carry out dining out restaurant. Everybody is frickin McDonald's right now. Right? And so, like, it dismantled the hierarchy really quickly. And so I hope that structurally something can be created from that. You know? And it can translate into a new industry when the pandemic is over. 

Dan Pashman: What do you hope that people will take from listening to The Walk-In?

Elle Simone Scott: I hope the people will go out into the world being more compassionate. More compassion for themselves, for others, for me, for the guest, for the food and beverage industry. I hope that they walk away from it knowing that it's OK to have baggage issues, problems. It's more normal than they think. But it is also OK to talk about it and get help, if you need it. I just hope they walk away feeling empowered and feeling whole.

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Dan Pashman: That’s Elle Simone Scott from America’s Test Kitchen.