Michele Norris: What I would do is I'd cook Sunday dinner. So if I made two chickens on Sunday, then I would work the second chicken into something later in the week. And it was usually – be the chicken breast, because we all like dark meat. 

Dan Pashman: Because you're correct. 

Michele Norris: Yes, it's better.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Michele Norris: It just is. Let's just say that it's just better.

Dan Pashman: It just is. Yes, it is better. Yes.

Michele Norris: I don't understand people who don't like chicken thighs. Like, where are you from? It's the best part of the chicken. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And this week I’m talking with Michele Norris, host of the podcast Your Mama's Kitchen, author of the book Our Hidden Conversations and former host of NPR's All Things Considered.

Dan Pashman: Welcome to the show, Michele!

Michele Norris: Hey, Dan, it's great to be with you. 

Dan Pashman: Now later in the show, you and I are going to take some calls. We have a listener who’s calling in to tell a story about her mother and something she’s struggling with. And this conversation is gonna be very much in the style of your podcast, Michele. Then we’ll respond to some listener hot takes and food disputes. But before we get to that, Michele, let’s talk a little more about you. So your podcast, Your Mama's Kitchen — I love the origin story — this is the most radio nerd origin story.

Michele Norris: [LAUGHS] It is.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] So right near and dear to my heart. Tell us how this podcast came to be. 

Michele Norris: Well, as someone who spends a lot of time behind the microphone, you understand the importance of the mic check! That when you talk to somebody, you need to listen to them talk a little bit so they can ride the levels, the engineer can match your voices. My voice is low. And the standard question that everybody asks is, "What did you have for breakfast?" And we're not a country where people apparently eat big breakfasts. I never ...

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Michele Norris: You know, got the person who ordered the rooty tutti frutti at the IHOP with, [Dan Pashman: Right.] you know, extra bacon. I was always talking to people would say oatmeal or nothing — no one talked enough. And so I came up with a bunch of other questions. Tell me about your mama's kitchen was one of those questions, and it was the money question. Because when you asked that question, people always had a lot to say. And it was not just what they said, it was how the tone in their voice shifted. It took them to a place in their mind where, you know, even if I was talking to them about the accusations that they were facing for, you know, absconding with money or something like that, whatever it was, it took them to a happy place, or at least a contemplative place. Even if the kitchen wasn't a happy place, they were thinking backwards to a younger version of themselves. And for a long time, Dan, I thought this would be such a good podcast. And the theory of the case is that we become who we are in large measure by what we see, experience, absorb, and witness in our family kitchens.

Dan Pashman: You know, you kind of set me up perfectly here, Michele. Tell me about your mama's kitchen. 

Michele Norris: [LAUGHS] Well, you know, it's interesting. I've been having these conversations during a period where my mom has been struggling with some significant health issues, and I have been thinking a lot about her kitchen because she's no longer fully ambulatory. So she used to command a space that she can't easily move around in. And her kitchen was organized. And her kitchen was a place of adventure. I come from a working class family and my mom's a fourth generation Minnesotan, which is an unusual thing for a Black family. My father's from Alabama, so yeah, we grew up eating a lot of what you would traditionally call Soul Food — fried chicken, collard greens, gumbo, red beans and rice. But my mom was also really adventurous, and so she was trying new foods. She watched a lot of public television. She liked cookbooks. She was in the book of the month club, and she always chose a cookbook as one of her books that would come every month. And she let my sisters also experiment in her kitchen, them through food and me, primarily because I was the youngest through crafts. And I think back now at how much I appreciate that, because for someone who really valued organization and cleanliness and kind of a Montessori model, a place for everything and everything in its place, she let us go in and just kind of wreck the space where we had to clean up afterwards. But she let us have kind of free rein to try stuff. And I respect that kind of parenting, because I know it took her way out of her comfort zone. 

Dan Pashman: Is there a dish that you cook today that reminds you of your mama's kitchen? 

Michele Norris: I think my mom, I make gumbo. We loved the New Orleans food, and we ate a lot of it — gumbo, jambalaya, fricassee, red beans and rice. My family's pretty crazy for gumbo. And ...

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Michele Norris: Yeah, I mean, I make it every year at Christmas, and I have for decades now. I changed during covid and decided that it makes them happy. So why do I only do it at Christmas? And so now, I make gumbo more often. And if people are standing in the need of something, if they're going through something, a pot of gumbo can go a long way toward, you know, healing a broken heart or, you know, take away some of the sting from that. And I think of my mom a lot when I'm making gumbo because it's a long process and it requires stamina and patience and skill. And I think after all these years, I finally have found the confidence that she had in the kitchen making a dish like that. 

Dan Pashman: So now, you're the one who reigns. 

Michele Norris: Yeah, I share also. I mean, my husband's a great cook and we have three kids and all of them can throw down in the kitchen.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Michele Norris: All of them.

Dan Pashman: So one more question before we start chatting with some listeners. You've now had a bunch of different conversations on your podcast with folks like Michelle Obama, Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach, Matthew Broderick, D-nice, Jose Andres. You’ve asked all of them about their mama's kitchens. We all intuitively know that many people have sort of warm and fuzzy memories, I hope, of food and growing up, but is there something more than that that you've learned or seen in having these conversations that you've been surprised by? 

Michele Norris: Let's just say that not everybody has warm and fuzzy memories from their kitchen. Kitchens for some people, for too many people in America, are a place of want. They are not a place of plenty. We should also know that the kitchen is an emotional cauldron in the house. So the kitchen is where we have arguments and debates. If a marriage is falling apart, you probably start to notice it in the kitchen by the way, people communicate with each other, how they're a little terse, how they don't listen to each other. So I started this with the theory that we become who we are as adults based on what we see here, experience, witness in the kitchen. And that absolutely is true based on the conversations that I've had.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Right. All right, Michele, I think we've established that you are well qualified to talk about food and to give some counsel to Sporkful listeners who have food related issues. We're going to take a quick break. Then when we come back, we're gonna open the phone lines. You ready? 

Michele Norris: Looking forward to it. 

Dan Pashman: Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman, and I have new Sporkful live taping to announce! Check this out! We're gonna be at Cookbook Fest in Napa doing a live taping on Saturday, June 22nd. I’ll be in conversation with Khushbu Shah and Edy Massih, two incredibly talented first-time cookbook authors, as they're gonna reflect on the ups and downs of the cookbook process and what they learned along the way. It's gonna be a great conversation. And this is just one part of an incredible weekend of delicious food and drinks, live entertainment, cooking demos, cookbook signings, and more. A lot of past Sporkful guests will be there including Andrea Nguyen, Bryant Terry, and Nik Sharma — Chef Tyler Florence is going to be there cooking. I’ve never been to Napa but, I mean, everyone says that in June, it’s going just gorgeous. I am really excited for this weekend. So I hope you'll join me. If you get the general admission ticket for Saturday June 22nd, that will include the Sporkful live taping. Get info on the whole event at CookbookFest.com. Okay, back to the show.

Dan Pashman: And I'm joined once again by Michele Norris. Hello, Michele. 

Michele Norris: Hey, Dan. 

Dan Pashman: All right Michele, we’re going to take a phone call now from a listener who has a story about her mama’s kitchen, and then later we’ll respond to some listener voicemails. You ready?

Michele Norris: I'm ready. 

Dan Pashman: Hi. Who's this? 

Sarah: Hi. This is Sarah from Montreal. 

Dan Pashman: Hey, Sarah. So we got to get a proper level on your voice. Michele, do you want to do the honors here? 

Michele Norris: [LAUGHS] Sure!  So, Sarah, I host a podcast that always begins with the same question. And here it is: Tell me about your mama's kitchen. And if you can, close your eyes and describe it for us?

Sarah: The kitchen was a really big open space with a sort of breakfast bar in the middle. It was pale cream yellow and gave on directly to the back garden, which was really beautiful. It was what I've come to know now as an ingredient kitchen. So not a lot of stuff already ready, but a lot of haphazard kind of ingredients and spices and things to throw together. And it was like so many other kitchens, the default place where we all ended up. My mom, she was a really elaborate cook, and it was really healthy, delicious food that annoyed me when I was a kid and teenager. And now as an adult, I have a newfound appreciation for it. And also It was chaotic, but I would be sitting in there for hours talking to her while she cooked. And I was allowed to sit on the counters even as a kid. 

Michele Norris: Oh!

Sarah: Which I realized when I went to other households, it seemed like a wild thing.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Sarah: But yeah, that was one of the perks. It was a pretty hands off, kind of free parenting kind of kitchen.

Michele I didn't grow up with a sit on the counter kind of kitchen. I'm jealous.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Michele Norris: [LAUGHS] My mom was not having that. 

Dan Pashman: Your mom drew the line at that. She would let you experiment, but no one's sitting on the counter, right? 

Michele Norris: No. No.

Dan Pashman: So, Sarah in Montreal, what prompted you to call in today? 

Sarah: I've been in this sort of odd battle with my mom where it's a one-sided food fight, which is a bit of a strange dynamic. My mom has dementia. She got that diagnosis about two or three years ago, but we had seen progression beforehand. And I think they prepare you for a lot of the elements that are going to come with that. So I think I knew that at some point she'll probably forget my name, or there may be some sort of key elements of our past that would come up, and I was bracing myself for that. But I have found myself, for some reason, finding a lot of the smaller changes a lot harder to deal with. And one of the big ones has been food. So her taste buds have changed dramatically. Her way of eating and her relationship to food has really changed. And on top of it, she doesn't remember a lot of those food memories that I had. So we've been having this sort of one-sided argument multiple times because she keeps forgetting we have it. So we’re kind of looping back about salad dressing, specifically, which I've come to realize had quite a symbolic meaning in our household. 

Michele Norris: Why was salad dressing so important? Was it because it was homemade and it was a key part of the meal? 

Sarah: Yeah. So my mom was really eclectic, and she was a total hippie. We grew up in a mostly vegetarian household. We probably had salad for most of our meals, and she had disdain for bought dressing. And I remember even as a kid being told that bought dressing would not enter our household. And it seemed sort of like blasphemy. And so it's one of the very first things I think she taught me to make, and it felt like a very big point of pride. And that has changed really dramatically. I mean, I think one of the last times I went to visit her, she was eating Cheez Whiz with a spoon. She buys only dressing and she's not buying the fancy stuff. She's buying ranch or things that sort of would have seemed completely scandalous to me up until fairly recently. And when I've, you know, initially sort of teasingly brought it up with her of sort of like, "Oh, someone has changed," she told me she's always bought dressing and this has always been her favorite. 

Dan Pashman: And so, like the first time that she said to, no, I've always like this dressing. It's my favorite, what went through your head? 

Sarah: Initially, it was kind of an anger and a defensiveness and then a bit of self-negation or feeling a little silly for feeling that strongly and trying to remember that it's her memory. And so, the first time was sort of more confusing than anything else. I mean depending on the day, there are days where I feel a little bit more frustrated than others, but now it just feels mostly sad. It feels like it's a really fundamental part of who she is that isn't there anymore. And not only isn't there anymore, but is gone from her memories as well, which has felt like a really specific form of loss.

Michele Norris: But it lives on in you. 

Sarah: It does. 

Michele Norris: Where did she come from? What is her origin story? 

Sarah: She came from southern Ontario, a really rough family upbringing with seven kids, a military father, and all of this sort of stuff and trauma that came with that. So it was a pretty difficult past. And she got away when she was in her early 20s, moved to France to study at La Sorbonne for a couple of years, and then came back and basically only ever spoke French after that, even though it was not her first tongue. And we were also really big on chosen family. We didn't have a very close relationship with her actual family, so we had this sort of group of 20, 25 people that would be coming around 4 or 5 times a year, and it'd be a big feast, and it'd be a sort of labor of love. And she had the time and it was never rushed.

Dan Pashman: So part of the change she made to kind of, like you say, distance herself from her own upbringing was making the quality of the meals a priority. It wasn't just about all these mouths to feed.

Sarah: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And so there was a lot of thought, a lot of care, and a lot of concern for the ingredients and the healthiness of it. And that was sort of an attempt to move away from the way she grew up. 

Sarah: Yeah. And it tied into all kinds of things in the ways that she wanted to raise us also. So she sent my brother and I both to this vegetarian, no sugar camp for a better part of our childhoods, which sounds like it should have been kind of hellish for kids, but was actually ... 

Michele Norris: Did you say a vegetarian, no sugar camp?

Dan Pashman: This is actually a higher level of intensity from your mom in terms of her beliefs that I [Michele Norris: Right.] that I was quite aware of.

Michele Norris: Right. Yeah, that went that took it into the red ...

[LAUGHING]

Sarah: Oh, yes. She committed to the bit. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, no sugar summer camp. I didn't know that existed. [LAUGHS]

Michele Norris: Vegetarian, no sugar summer camp. 

Dan Pashman: Right, right.

[LAUGHING]

Sarah: Totally. And you would think that we would have gone, like kicking and screaming and completely resisted, but like, I went for, I think, five summers. And when they decided to close it down, I was absolutely heartbroken. I would say, those were probably some of the best weeks of my life. And this is coming from someone who was intensely addicted to sugar as soon as I could get my hands on it.

Michele Norris: So Sarah, may I make an observation? It sounds like your mom went through a period of reinvention. She created a new life for herself. I don't — you know, I'm not a scholar of dementia, but oddly, because of the work I do through another project, I've learned something interesting about dementia and Alzheimer's. Your short-term memory starts to recede, and your long-term memory becomes much more vivid. And what can happen is, you know, you're losing the shared memories, but there can sometimes be an opportunity to explore a part of someone's past that they didn't much talk about, because that suddenly is much more vivid in their mind. And I wonder if some of the foods that she's craving or enjoying are the things that she remembers from a previous time in her life.

Sarah: Yeah, that would make sense.

Dan Pashman: From her own childhood. 

Sarah: Yeah, thanks for that. There's something nice with that train of  thought, also with the idea that she would be getting comfort from that, because talking about her past or a lot of the feelings connected to childhood and her past were not sources of comfort. So, yeah, that feels really nice to think about that there's something pleasant for her there, as opposed to, you know, what often feels like she's given up. And I don't think that that's true, but I think because I was sort of raised to see food as a correlation of how much you care about yourself and your body and the people around you, that it's been hard to not correlate her changing tastes with her not caring to hold on to those parts of her at all anymore.

Dan Pashman: I mean, I'll just say, I don't think you should criticize yourself for this being something "small", because it isn't just about salad dressing. Like, you know, you're sort of watching this person, your own mother, kind of disappear over time. And the salad dressing is just the most salient example of a much larger, difficult issue, which I think you have every right to feel emotional about. So I don't think you should fault yourself for that. But beyond that, Michele, what are your thoughts? 

Michele Norris: I had the same instinct, Dan. You know, when you said that it's small. If you're feeling it, it's not small. And it's occupying a space in your heart, so it's it's valid. And, you know, those shared memories that you have with parents are like little tethers on a ladder that you've built together, you know, going forward. And when those tethers disappear, you worry about that link between you, that ladder, that bridge, you know, whatever it is, might get more wobbly. And one of the things you can, you know, maybe some of us try to do is to try to find new tethers. You know, she's digging Cheez Whiz now. Is there something you can build — 

Sarah: Get into some Cheese Whiz. 

Michele Norris: Yeah. [LAUGHS] You know, which probably, given the childhood that you've described, is probably anathema to you, I can't imagine. 

Sarah: Maybe that's where there's some nice resolution there where I get to eat like the eight-year-old kid that I wanted to be, you know?

Dan Pashman: My advice to you, Sarah, is to go out and get yourself a can of Cheez Whiz and a sleeve of crackers and take them over to your mom's place and sit together and eat some Cheez Whiz and crackers and have her tell you some stories. 

Sarah: Yeah, I like that. I think instead of resisting and being so gripped on the specificity of the dressing or of the thing that we were eating, that really what I'm missing is just some sort of bonding over eating something. And at this point it can be something unpretentious. Maybe that's even a part of the joy is that we're kind of letting go of our fancy hippie pretenses, and we get to both be indulgent ten-year-old kids eating maple spread and Cheez Whiz and sounds kind of nice. 

Dan Pashman: There you go. Even hippies need Cheez Whiz once in a while, Sarah.

[LAUGHING] 

Sarah: Yeah. That's helpful. Thanks, guys. 

Dan Pashman: Well, it's our pleasure. Thank you so much for reaching out and sharing such a personal story, Sara. I really appreciate it. 

Michele Norris: Much love to you. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: That was so interesting, Michele. I really appreciated what you shared about dementia, the idea that older memories can become so much more vivid, and the idea that perhaps her mom is sort of being transported to an earlier time in her life in some sense. 

Michele Norris: Yeah.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All right, Michele, we're going to switch gears a little bit. Things are going to get a little bit lighter now. We asked Sporkful listeners to send in food debates, food related disagreements, relationship issues, hot takes.

Michele Norris: Culinary adjudication here. Okay. 

Dan Pashman: That's right. So we're gonna listen to some voice memos from listeners and then we are going to opine. You ready? 

Michele Norris: Mm-hmm. Let's go. 

Dan Pashman: All right. Let's hear from the first listener. 

CLIP (CHANNIN): Hello, Sporkful. My name is Channin. And here's my dispute. My boyfriend Lee and I have been in dispute over dipping cookies and pastries in liquids, like milk and coffee. One example of this is that my boyfriend will dip a buttery, savory, flaky croissant in, like, a cup of coffee and then finish the coffee left after the flaky croissant has just saturated that last sipper or two of coffee. [LAUGHS] And I think that's so gross. I'm not exactly a purist, but I am mostly an anti-dipper. I think there's certain exceptions, like dipping Oreos in milk or dipping biscotti in your coffee. But I really think that the line needs to be drawn. So we've been asking actually people in our network, including grocery store clerks, coffee baristas, gas station attendants. So I wanted to get your take and see what your thoughts were. 

Dan Pashman: Michele, what do you think? 

Michele Norris: I don't know. I think if the person is dipping into their own cup, then have at it. But if they're dipping into someone else's cup or something that's shared, that's another matter. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Michele Norris: And I draw the line, perhaps between coffee and milk, because the problem with dipping in milk is they leave behind those sort of shmoaties. I know I just made up a word. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Michele Norris: but you know what I mean ... You know what I'm talking about?

Dan Pashman: Yeah, yeah. 

Michele Norris: Like little, little things that are ... 

Dan Pashman: Flaky bits and crumbs. Floaters. Yeah.

Michele Norris: Yes. Floaters in the milk and then the milk ... eehhh. Sometimes it turns a different color. And I'm not a big milk drinker, so maybe that is my problem with that. But actually, a croissant dipped in coffee is eccentric. But I don't feel like we need to write a citation on that one. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I'm with you that you have dominion over your own beverage. So if you want to have flakes of croissant in your coffee, that's up to you. The one technique I would recommend is something I call the side-car, because I don't like crumbs and bits in my drink. 

Michele Norris: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: So you just take, like, an espresso cup or, like, a small juice glass and fill that with milk or coffee, and then you have your normal-sized drinking cup, and then you have a little mini dipper sidecar cup on the side, and that's for dipping. And that way your beverage remains unadulterated. 

Michele Norris: I like that. If there's a potter that's listening, you have an idea for creating like a little saucer situation where you've got ...

Dan Pashman: That's right. 

Michele Norris: I like that. 

Dan Pashman: All right. So I think we're basically the same page on the dipping in question. What's next?

Michele Norris: Should should we dip into the next one? I couldn't help it. Sorry.

Dan Pashman: Oh, yeah. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: You segue between a few things before, haven't you, Michele? 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: All right. What's next? 

CLIP (COLEMAN): Hi, Sporkful. This is Coleman from Maryland, and I just wanted to share my kind of hot take, which is that if somebody tells you they don't like a specific food and your response is, "Well, you just haven't had a good one yet," then you are now responsible for getting that person what you consider a good one, because I think it's kind of presumptuous to say that, and so you better be ready to back it up. 

Michele Norris: I like Coleman. I like his attitude. 

[LAUGHING] 

Michele Norris: I like everything about that. 

Dan Pashman: I had not thought about that. But I do like that rule. 

Michele Norris: I think it's a very good rule, and I'm trying to think in my life I have probably been guilty of that. Like we eat crabs all the time. My husband's from Maryland, like Coleman, and people say, "Oh, I don't like crabs. They're just so, you know, hard to eat. And they're so messy ..." And there are times when we have invited ‘cause we do big crab, we call ‘em crabfabs, [Dan Pashman: Right.] tables covered with paper. You beat up your food with a mallet. But I like that idea. It's the opposite of yucking someone's yum. 

Dan Pashman: If you're going to attempt to yum someone's yuck, [MICHELE NORRIS LAUGHS] then you got to back it up with hard evidence. For instance, it drives me crazy when people say — well, I don't like angel hair pasta. I think it just goes from like raw to mush instantly. And people say, "Oh, you just haven't had it cooked right." Now, to me, the window of optimal cooking time for angel hair is like 0.3 seconds. 

Michele Norris: [LAUGHS] That's you're — you're right about that. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Michele Norris: It is. It's like flash. 

Dan Pashman: Right, right. You got to blanch it, basically. 

Michele Norris: Yeah. You need one of those pasta things where you just dip it in the water instead of like actually boiling it. 

Dan Pashman: Right, right. So if you're going to give me that nonsense about angel hair, then you need to bring me some good angel hair. So that's a challenge for you angel hair defenders out there.

Michele Norris: All right. That's a good rule. And should there be a statute of limitations on someone's time limit. Like if you're going to yum someone's yuck, you have to like come with it. You have to provide some sort of exculpatory evidence. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Michel Norris: You know, within a specific period of time. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. I think it depends on the exact logistics of it. You know, if someone's saying, "Oh, I haven't had a good beignet," and you're like, "Well, you have to get a New Orleans." And if you're not in New Orleans, well then, you know, there may be logistical hurdles to be overcome. All right. Should we do one more? 

Michele Norris: Sure! I'm up for it. 

CLIP (JAMES): Hey, I'm James from Oakland, California, and my hot take is that fruit should not be. I think one of life's true joy is biting into a juicy, fresh piece of fruit and feeling refreshment. I'm thinking cool peach on a warm summer day, or ripe strawberry atop your favorite dessert. The exact opposite of refreshing is heating up those delicious, crisp fruits and turning them into a warm, mushy mess. I believe this is why fruit pies, when served hot, are deeply unsatisfying, and they're so often accompanied by a scoop of ice cream. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Oh, I wish you could see Michele's face right now. 

Michele Norris: What??

[LAUGHING] 

Michele Norris: I mean, I was ...

Dan Pashman: You were aghast. 

Michele Norris: I had your ... I was putting together my rebuttal. [LAUGHS] But then when he said no fruit pies? I mean, okay, I'm a pie person, first of all. 

Dan Pashman: I love a pie.

Michele Norris: I love pie. I mean, I'd rather have pie than cake on my birthday. Strawberry rhubarb pie is ... is heaven on earth? 

Dan Pashman: Yes. 

Michele Norris: Blueberry peach pie? You know, this hot take is in conversation with Coleman. Because I just feel like I want to go to Oakland and introduce him to a really good pie, because, you know, if you've only had, and no shade on McDonald's, an apple fritter from McDonald's or something like that, you might think that pie is not so great. But, you know, a really good homemade pie — but even beyond that, when he was talking about peaches, have you ever had a grilled peach? 

Dan Pashman: So good. 

Michele Norris: So good! You know, someone introduced me to pineapple on a smoker? You know, like a Traeger smoker, right? 

Dan Pashman: Right, right. I'm sure it's phenomenal 

Michele Norris: Just throwing a little pineapple. Oh, man. It's amazing. 

Dan Pashman: But the other thing I would say is that I love pie, too. I love fruit pies. I almost always want a fruit pie with a crisp topping or a crumb topping, preferably like double thick as whatever the normal way of doing it is. 

Michele Norris: Hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: You know, I kind of want to ratio like 50 percent crumb topping, 50 percent fruit filling, but I actually like pie room temperature. 

Michele Norris: Hmm? 

Dan Pashman: I might like it better room temperature than warm. Because I like when the crumb topping and the crust when the butter is a little bit firmer in there? 

Michele Norris: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And it's a little bit more dense and tooth sinkable. I like that denser pie crust filling feeling. So my advice to James would be try pie room temperature. Let's get him a good pie with a crumb topping, and let's make it room temperature and see if he can come around to that. 

Michele Norris: Yeah, I appreciate James's point of view and I'm not going to try to yum up his yuck. [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] He is entitled to his opinion but ...

Dan Pashman: He's entitled to his opinion. He may never have come around to all warm fruits and hot fruits, but I feel like you know, you're missing out if you're not eating some pie in your life. 

Michele Norris: Yeah, yeah. 

Dan Pashman: So eat some room temperature pie, but a big scoop of ice cream on top. Let it sit for a minute. So it get — the ice cream melts a little bit and gets soft, mix it all around a little bit. I mean, that's just got to be good. 

Michele Norris: Okay, I'm going to give you a hot take right here. 

Dan Pashman: Let's do it. 

Michele Norris: I don't really like pie à la mode. 

Dan Pashman: You waited till this long into this conversation to reveal this, Michele? 

Michele Norris: [LAUGHS] I don't. I like ...

[LAUGHING]

Michele Norris: I like whipped cream on my pie or just plain pie. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. Actually, my wife Janey is the same. She finds that putting ice cream on pie makes it, like, too heavy, too rich. 

Michele Norris: And it just doesn't — it melts into the pie. I don't ... I don't want all that sort of avalanche. 

Dan Pashman: But you're starting with hot pies. See, I'm starting with room temperature pie. And then I'm putting a scoop of cold ice cream on, so it melts much slower. 

Michele Norris: No. 

[LAUGHING] 

Michele Norris: No. No, not convinced.You know, when you were talking about the sidecar?

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Michele Norris: I think that's perfect for pie. Like, I'll have pie and then ice cream. 

Dan Pashman: Would you move the spoon back and forth and, like ... 

Michele Norris: Yes!

Dan Pashman: And would you combine them in bites and bites? 

Michele Norris: Yes. Yeah, and bites possibly. 

Dan Pashman: So you like them together. You just don't like the physically —  you don't like the ice cream melting and turning into that soup. 

Michele Norris: No, I don't. I don't want it on my pie. I want it over there.

Dan Pashman: Okay. All right. That's fair. I can meet you in the middle on that. 

Michele Norris: Okay, good. 

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Well, Michele Norris, it's been a real pleasure having you. The podcast is Your Mama's Kitchen. And you also have a new book out called Our Hidden Conversations: What Americans Really Think About Race and Identity. Thank you so much. 

Michele Norris: It's been great being with you. Thank you. I want some pie now. 

Dan Pashman: Me, too. Me, too. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Now, if you have a food feud with a friend or family member, or maybe a hot take you'd like to share, please let me know. Write to me at hello@sporkful.com. We may feature you in an upcoming episode. Again, that’s hello@sporkful.com.

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, I talk with a flavor chemist about what it means when you see “natural flavors” listed on an ingredients label. What exactly is that? She'll also walk me through a flavor experiment that you too can try at home. That’s next week.

Dan Pashman: And while you’re waiting for that one, check out last week’s episode with actor Claudia Jessie from the steamy Netflix show Bridgerton. Claudia shares what she liked to cook and eat when she lived on a boat, and I have her take a Buzzfeed quiz to determine which Bridgerton character she is. That one’s up now, check it out.