Dan Pashman: Hey, Sally Helm, reporter for Planet Money.

Sally Helm: Hello, Dan.

Dan Pashman: You'll recall the scene. It's a very hot summer day. 

Dan Pashman: I should have worn shorts. 

Dan Pashman: You and I show up in a restaurant in New York City, specifically in Long Island City, Queens. 

Sally Helm: Yeah, It's a casual Indian place, called Adda, which translates, roughly, to hangout spot, and that is the vibe the owner Roni Mazumdar was going for.

Sally Helm: You're Roni?

Roni Mazumdar: Yeah. 

Sally Helm: I'm Sally. 

Roni Mazumdar: How are you? Very nice to meet you.

Dan Pashman: Roni knows the restaurant business. At the time we first meet him, he owns three Indian places in New York. In addition to this one, there’s The Masalawala, and a more upscale spot, Rahi. But he’s also run two that have closed, including a taco spot right here in Adda’s current location. And he told us, the whole concept of Adda is a risk. 

Roni Mazumdar: We took a lot of chances in a restaurant like this. Serving goat brains isn't really a normal protocol here in New York, because you're scared out of your mind, like maybe it's way too ethnic.

Dan Pashman: But when the New York Times came to review Adda, those goat brains were considered a highlight. One server compares them to soft scrambled eggs with onions, ginger, and fresh green chiles. Another standout, according to Pete Wells’ review: kaleji masala, chicken livers in a gravy with fresh ginger and garam masala. 

Sally Helm: That wasn’t the only press Adda got. It was named a "Best New Restaurant In America" by Food and Wine, and got nominated for a James Beard Award, which is great in some ways of course, but suddenly the business changed. And Roni found he had a problem. 

Dan Pashman: Now, the problem is not the food. It’s actually the physical space. And how the physical space relates to the money. 

Sally Helm: So to explain this, first you gotta understand that Roni designed his restaurant one way.

Roni Mazumdar: And we were genuinely never expecting people beyond a five block radius.

Sally Helm: There’s a college across the street, lots of young professionals working in the area ...

Dan Pashman: But now, Adda is a destination. 

Roni Mazumdar: People from different parts of the world are coming. This is no longer a quick bite restaurant. People are spending more time than we expected.

Dan Pashman: But that also creates a certain economic pressure.

Roni Mazumdar: It does, that’s why the chairs don’t have cushions.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Roni Mazumdar: I’m dead serious.

Sally Helm: If the chairs are too comfortable, people might stay too long. And Roni is set on keeping prices low. Which means if he’s gonna turn a good profit, he needs people to eat quickly. Then leave and make space for more customers. 

Dan Pashman: But not feel too rushed. I mean, he wants them to have a good enough time that they come back, of course.

Sally Helm: Balance. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. That is the key for any restaurateur. You got to get the most out of every table, every seat, every minute that you’re open. And to do that, a restaurant has to balance three things: price, timing, and space. All of them come with tradeoffs. 

Sally Helm: Yeah. You can do low prices and quick turnover. Or you can make it really comfy, so people are okay paying more, but then they stay longer. 

Dan Pashman: And of course, you want to fit in as many people in your restaurant as possible, but you can't go too far with that because then no one's gonna want to come back. I mean, people don't like to eat literally in a human pile. 

Sally Helm: So, tradeoffs. How a place balances these tradeoffs sets the tone and the profits for a restaurant.

Dan Pashman: And this industry operates on tiny margins. So if the balance is off, even a James Beard Award nominated restaurant is vulnerable. 

Sally Helm: Roni is doing a lot of things right. But his problem, it is right smack in the front of the restaurant for everyone to see. 

Dan Pashman: Adda’s worst table.

[RESTAURANT AMBIANCE]

Sally Helm: What table is this?

Roni Mazumdar: 101.

Sally Helm: You say that with an ominous ... 

Roni Mazumdar: Cause it's the only table that's a high top. 

Sally Helm: Because it's higher up. It's raised off the ground. 

Roni Mazumdar: Yes, and we wanted that because we wanted sort of a little nice vantage point so people can really see outside as opposed to really a lower angle.

Dan Pashman: Roni thought for sure that Table 101 was going to be the best seat in the house. It is the window seat and usually people love the window seat. But at Adda, this window table has the restaurant's lowest check average. Roni doesn’t get it.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: That’s why we have brought Roni a secret weapon, Stephani Robson. She’s an expert on restaurant psychology and design. And she has agreed to come to Adda and conduct an experiment. Can she use her research to turn Table 101 into the best seat in the house?

Sally Helm: And also, show me and Dan and everyone else the little tricks that restaurants use to get us to spend more? 

Dan Pashman: Today on the show, we take a page from reality TV. We’re doing a data-driven restaurant makeover. 

Sally Helm: It is a game of inches and everything inside is fair game.

[MOVING CHAIRS AND TABLES] 

Stephani Robson: [LAUGHS] We're totally dismantling your entire restaurant. 

Roni Mazumdar: I love it. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies it’s for eaters, I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. And for this episode I got a co-host, my friend Sally Helm, reporter, writer, producer ... Hey, Sally.

Sally Helm: Hello, Dan. So that story we are sharing today is one that we also did with our friends at the NPR podcast Planet Money.

Dan Pashman: That's right, Sally. So, let's get into it. 

Sally Helm: All right. So, we meet Stephani Robson in the street outside Adda. 

Dan Pashman: Have you been here before? 

Stephani Robson: I have not. It took me a while to find it. 

Dan Pashman: We picked Stephani because she’s the perfect person to figure out the problem of Table 101. She’s consulted with dozens of restaurants. Her specialty? The way design affects how much we spend. She used to teach this stuff at Cornell.

Sally Helm: Stefani did one study that showed that playing fast songs got people out of the restaurant seven or eight minutes quicker. 

Dan Pashman: Other research suggests that if you play faster music, people might also spend more per minute. Stephani says that could be why grocery stores play so much '80s music.

Sally Helm: And these days she is very focused on tables.

Stephani Robson: How close tables can be and what effect that has on the guests, which is kind of mortifying. You know, when you talk to other people who do research, and some people will be coming up with a new theory of physics, and I'm studying the distance of restaurant tables, but ... 

Dan Pashman: Well, for the record Stephani, I think your research is very important.

Stephani Robson: Well thank you, Dan.

[LAUGHING] 

Sally Helm: It is important, especially to someone running a restaurant.

Stephani Robson: Restaurants don't really sell food, they sell space. That's what they're in the business of doing.

Dan Pashman: You’re running a real estate business.

Stephani Robson: It is a real estate business. That's exactly right. 

Sally Helm: And the diners are like renting tables? 

Stephani Robson: Yeah, yeah. Think about it. When you go to a restaurant that has a really high check average, really high prices, they can give you a bigger table. They can give you a bigger table because they can afford to because you're paying more in rent. 

Dan Pashman: And for that money, for that extra money, you are quite literally getting more space for more time. 

Stephani Robson: Yes, that's exactly right. And so, if you're at a restaurant where they don't have that kind of a check average — think about fast food restaurants you've been to you, you don't get a comfy booth at McDonald's. That's on purpose because they don't want you to stay.

Dan Pashman: Even in suburban and rural areas, where there’s plenty of space at fast food restaurants, you’re not gonna find a whole lot of cushioned seats. And some of the more upscale fast casual places have no seats at all. Like Los Tacos No. 1, a small taco chain in New York City, they only have high counters. So if you’re gonna eat there, you have to eat standing up. Even at Adda, they don’t go that far.

Sally Helm: So when we walk in here in a sec, what are you going to be looking for? 

Stephani Robson: First thing I'm gonna look for is what style of seating they have. But I get a first impression just looking at the mix of tables and where they are. 

Sally Helm: Is that always what it's like for you when you walk into a restaurant? Does your eye go straight to the tables? 

Stephani Robson: I am single for a reason, Sally. 

[LAUGHING] 

Sally Helm: Stephani used to bring a tape measure in her purse everywhere she went. She says, she has never whipped it out on a first date, but she did once get kicked out of the food court at the Pentagon City Mall outside D.C. because she was drawing little diagrams of the tables, and the guards thought that was suspicious. 

Dan Pashman: It sounds totally normal to me.

Sally Helm: All right. Should we do it? Shall we go inside?

Stephani Robson: Let's do it. 

Sally Helm: All right!

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: All right, Stephani, describe to us what you're seeing.

Stephani Robson: I am seeing a really interesting mix of tables. This is an unusually shaped restaurant.

Sally Helm: Adda is long and narrow. From the door, we can see the whole thing. There’s the problem Table 101, in the front window. Then it’s a row of two-person tables against a long wall with a banquette. That’s like bench seating that runs almost the whole length of the restaurant. And on the other side of the room, there’s a little nook, an alcove. 

Dan Pashman: In Stephani's mind, every part of the restaurant is a subtle clue for diners about how we should behave and what we should expect. 

Sally Helm: Like, if you have heavy cutlery, research suggests you’re willing to spend more. You’re like, oh my god. This fork is so heavy in my hand, this salmon must be worth 30 dollars.

Dan Pashman: Right, where as if it comes on a paper plate with a plastic fork, you're like, clearly, this salmon has been farmed.

Sally Helm: I do low quality salmon here. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Right, so first, Stephani looks around. She zooms in on the furniture. 

Stephani Robson: The chairs that I see are all metal. You're not gonna sit in these for a long time. We sometimes talk about restaurant chairs based on how long you're comfortable. You can order a two-hour chair or a three-hour chair. 

Sally Helm: Order them, like, from your restaurant supplier. So, say you're a steakhouse, and you're gonna charge a lot for your steaks and sell expensive bottles of wine. You can order the nice, cushy, three-hour chairs with the arm rests. Your plan is to have people stay longer, so you can sell them an extra cocktail and some desserts. 

Dan Pashman: But these metal chairs at Adda?

Sally Helm: What is this like a thirty-minute chair? 

Stephani Robson: This is probably a forty-two minutes and thirty-second chair.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Sally Helm: Wow!

Dan Pashman: I think Stephani was kidding about the thirty seconds, but it wouldn’t shock me if she was right. 

Sally Helm: As we’re talking about this, up walks the guy who can tell us all about these chairs, Roni. 

Dan Pashman: Stephani, Roni. Roni, Stephani.

Stephani Robson: Hi, Roni.

Roni Mazumdar: Hey!

Sally Helm: Roni and Stephani get right into it.

Stephani Robson: And I actually wanted to ask you a couple questions about your restaurant, if you don't mind. 

Roni Mazumdar: Sure. 

Stephani: So ... 

Sally Helm: Stephani starts off by asking, "What’s up with that cool little alcove in the wall there?"

Roni Mazumdar: That was a mop closet which we turned into a little nook, but that turned out to be the best seat in the house.

Stephani Robson: I was going to ask you why it's there but you just answered that for me. 

Roni Mazumdar: Yeah. 

Stephani: It was a mop closet. 

Dan Pashman: The mop closet table is the top table in the restaurant in terms of overall check average. 

Sally Helm: Stephani hears this and is like, "Ah yes. I thought so." One of her big research findings is that customers like tables that are anchored. That means they’re up against a wall, or in a corner. We don’t like feeling exposed. We like to be able to defend our space.

Dan Pashman: We're still basically cave people.

Sally Helm: And actually, there are a lot of anchored tables at Adda. Good for the caveman part of our brains. A ton of them are up against that long wall, with the banquette. But then, of course, there’s the table in the window.

Dan Pashman: Let’s bring it back to this table, Table 101.

Roni Mazumdar: Oh, boy.

Sally Helm: We walk over to Table 101. Remember, Stephani’s goal is to make it psychologically and financially optimal. And Roni has given her free reign.

Dan Pashman: Stephani looks at it and immediately she’s like, “Oh, yeah. We can make this better.”

Stefani Robson: I'm delighted. I'm tempted to pull out a piece of paper right now, and maybe, I think if Dan has a tape measure, we could draw this thing up. Absolutely. 

All: AGREES IN UNISON

Dan Pashman: All right, break out the blueprints. 

Sally Helm: Stephani says, okay, look. First of all, the high top thing isn’t working for you, not now that the restaurant isn’t that quick bite place anymore. People at this table feel like they're not part of the restaurant. They might be tempted to just order drinks and appetizers and then head out. So we need to bring this table down to the level of the others. 

Dan Pashman: And then she adds something else. She says, remember that mop closet table that's doing so well? People love to feel like they're in their own space, snug and cozy. But this table over here, it’s right by the door.

Stephani Robson: What I would do is then add a little stub wall, sort of perpendicular to the wall right by the doorway.

Roni Mazumdar: How high do you think the wall should be?

Stephani Robson: Forty-two inches. 

Roni Mazumdar: Why?

Stephani Robson: You don't want to wall that so high that people can't see over it. They kind of feel a little uncomfortable when they can't see the whole restaurant, but you also want it high enough that it feels like you're comfortable and anchored. 

Dan Pashman: All right, first off Sally, did you hear how quickly Stephani said 42 inches? 

Sally Helm: She knows.

Dan Pashman: She’s so hardcore, I love it. Anyway, she says that if Roni adds this little wall, he can turn this into a much better table.

Stephani Robson: Okay, so we have a notebook here. So why don't you describe for me, Roni, what you'd like to do? 

Roni Mazumdar: Maximum number of seats, humanly possible. 

Dan Pashman: It becomes clear pretty quickly that Stephani and Roni have different agendas.

Sally Helm: Roni wants more seats for more customers. Basically, feed as many people as possible as quickly as possible, without sacrificing too much on comfort.

Roni Mazumdar: How much space do you really think we need between tables?

Stephani Robson: So, If you're thinking about table spacing, psychologically? You want ... I'm gonna say 16 inches between tables. 

Roni Mazumdar: Sixteen inches? That's a whole restaurant!

Stephani Robson: Exactly. 

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Stephani’s research shows that sixteen inches is optimal. It’s the Goldilocks distance. We don’t like to feel too isolated. We also don’t like to feel too crammed together. But not all restaurants can afford to have that much space not generating revenue. And especially in an expensive city like New York, customers have gotten used to as little as six inches. 

Stephani Robson: And that looks like pretty much what you have. 

Roni Mazumdar: Okay. 

Stephani Robson: In fact, I would argue that some of those tables is closer to 4.

Roni Mazumdar: They probably are.

Dan Pashman: Stephani wants Roni to start thinking differently. Remember, it’s a real estate business. Her big metric is spend per minute. That essentially tells you how much you’re getting in rent from your diners.

Sally Helm: So she wants to make Table 101 into higher-end real estate. Just like when a landlord makes an apartment nicer so tenants expect to pay more for it. Stephani wants to make this table more comfortable, a better psychological experience. And she thinks this will pay off in higher check averages, more spending per person. But that’s stressful to Roni, for good reason.

Dan Pashman: Can you give me some idea, Roni, how much is one seat in this restaurant worth?

Sally Helm: Roni does some quick math. This much on dinner, this many “turns” of the table per week.

Roni Mazumdar: About $6,000 a month, $72,000 a year. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: So adding one seat is a big deal.

Roni Mazumdar: I guess. Yeah. 

Sally Helm: But Stephani's like, "Let me show you."

Dan Pashman: She gets to work with her tape measure. 

Stephani Robson: I'm gonna crawl around under the table, if that's okay?

Roni Mazumdar: Sure, okay. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Roni Mazumdar: We'll see you in a few. 

Dan Pashman: I'll slide out of your way, Stephani. 

Stephani Robson: I love my job. I love my job. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: In case you couldn’t hear, as Stephani crawled under the table she was muttering, “I love my job, I love my job.” 

Sally Helm: Finally, she has all the measurements she needs. 

Dan Pashman: They budget six inches between tables, not 16. But Roni can see what’s coming. 

Sally Helm: He might have to lose a precious seat. And he starts kind of panicking, suggesting all this stuff to get that seat back. He’s like, "Wait, what if we did slightly smaller tables? What if the tables were round? Maybe if we had smaller chairs?"

Dan Pashman: We are literally going inch-by-inch here to try to save one seat in this restaurant. 

Roni Mazumdar: Absolutely. 

Sally Helm: Stephani listens to these ideas, but she also holds firm. 

Dan Pashman: Finally, they have it all drawn out to her specifications. And the big moment comes. They count up the seats.

Stephani Robson: So you've bought yourself one, two, three, four, five, six, seven seats. Right now in this space, what's the maximum number of people you would sit here?

Roni Mazumdar: Eight.

Stephani Robson: Okay. So you've actually lost a seat. 

Roni Mazumdar: Yeah.

Stephani Robson: But the question is, will you increase your revenue, because these tables or more desirable?

Roni Mazumdar: Sure. 

Stephanie Robson: Suddenly this becomes a great table. 

Roni Mazumdar: A great spot, sure. 

Stephani Robson: Even though you've lost a seat ...

Roni Mazumdar: That's fine, yeah.

Stephani Robson: I'd be willing to bet that you probably will see your revenues go up.

Roni Mazumdar: Hmm.

Dan Pashman: You almost hear Roni trying to convince himself. He's like, "Yes, yes. That will happen ... "

Sally Helm: I'm sure of it. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So this is what they end up with. A redesigned area for Table 101, with this new stub wall for privacy and anchoring, which Stephani’s research has shown people really like. The big high-top table for eight becomes three small tables at a normal height that seat a total of seven. 

Dan Pashman: If Roni wants to take Stephani’s advice, he has to go against his restaurateur’s intuition.

Sally Helm: Roni are you in for this experiment?

Roni Mazumdar: I think so.

Sally Helm: So, will Stephani's redesign make Roni more money, even though he's lost one precious seat?

Dan Pashman: After the break, Roni does some construction and we get the results. Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. Hey, before we get back to the show, my first cookbook, Anything's Pastable, is coming out in just a few weeks! And in order to write this new book, I knew I needed some help. So, I hired a team of recipe developers, culinary pros, who would help me turn a bunch of half boiled ideas into finished recipes. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: And in each episode of The Sporkful this month, we're taking a few minutes to feature one of those developers, so you can hear their stories and learn more about their contributions in my book. 

Dan Pashman: Today, I'm spotlighting Katie Leaird. Katie lives on Martha's Vineyard, off the coast of Massachusetts, and her specialty is Italian food. But Katie herself isn’t Italian. As she puts it …

Katie Leaird: We weren't really rooted in a culinary tradition, but luckily I grew up in northern New Jersey, which is so Italian American. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Yes. Also, where I grew up. 

Katie Leaird: Okay. Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Yes, I can confirm.

Katie Leaird: It's amazing!

Dan Pashman: It's like Italy West.

Katie Leaird: It's amazing how saturated it is wi this like super rich Italian American tradition.

Dan Pashman: The Sopranos wasn’t set in New Jersey by accident.

Katie Leaird: Um, no. My mother went to high school with the creator.

Dan Pashman: Oh, okay. All right, there ya go.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Katie herself may not be Italian, but an Italian American aunt who married into Katie’s family made a big impression on her.

Katie Leaird: Aunt Di has just always been my favorite cook. You know, and so when we would have the big family holidays and everything like that, you know, I grew up thinking manicotti was a traditional Thanksgiving food. It's not my tradition, but it became my kind of family tradition to be in this Italian American world.

Dan Pashman: That tradition would become Katie’s career. In her 20’s she worked in restaurants, and eventually went to culinary school. Her program sent her to train at a restaurant in the region of Puglia, in the heel of Italy’s boot

Katie Leaird: I get paired with a woman named Maria Chiarella, who is a home taught mother and grandmother, who starts working in her son's restaurant and eventually earns that restaurant a Michelin star. So she's just the role model in my book, you know, just totally made her own way. 

Dan Pashman: What I love about Katie, one of the reasons I wanted to work with her, is that she's steeped in classic Italian cooking and she loves to experiment and innovate. She knows the traditional ways but doesn’t feel beholden to them. One example of that in the book? There's a dish in Puglia that's a fab She helped me transform a fava bean puree with crunchy bitter greens in it. Usually, it's served as an appetizer with bread. But Katie helped me transform it into a pasta dish.

Katie Leaird: Please do not tell any of my grandma friends in Puglia.

[LAUGHING] 

Katie Leaird: Cause they're really — it might actually cause heart failure for these older women.

Dan Pashman: Right, they made it this far. This is gonna be the thing that puts them over edge.

Katie Leaird: This really ... This really could, you know? Nonna Yolanda, I am sorry. She is 98-years-old, this could really do it for her. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Katie Leaird: But the crazy American is at it again.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Make that two crazy Americans. Katie and I also teamed up for recipes in the book like cavatelli with roasted artichokes and preserved lemon, pappardelle with arugula and olives, and a pasta frittata. Perfect anytime of day or night. Follow Katie on Instagram @KatieLeairdFood, Leaird is L-E-A-I-R-D — Katie Leaird Food.

Dan Pashman: And remember that Anything’s Pastable is available for preorder right now! Preorders are the best way to support an author and if you preorder the book you’ll get an invite to a special Zoom cooking class I’m gonna be hosting just for you and all the other nice folks who preordered. We’re gonna hang out, chat, cook, eat. It's gonna be a lot of fun. If you already preordered, you’re also eligible to join the class. To preorder the book, including options for signed copies, and to get your invite to the class, go to Sporkful.com/book.

Dan Pashman: Okay, back to our story ...

Dan Pashman: Hey, Sally.

Sally Helm: Dan, hello. 

Dan Pashman: It's so nice to see you again. 

Sally Helm: It's so nice to see you. Here we are.

Dan Pashman: Here we are on the sidewalk in Queens, outside Adda Indian canteen.

Sally Helm: And it's been a couple months since we were last year. It's winter now. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Right. The seasons have not stopped. 

Sally Helm: Nope. 

Dan Pashman: And we hear that Roni has made the changes that Professor Stephani recommended.

Sally Helm: So we're here to see him.

Sally Helm: We walk in and right away …

[RESTAURANT AMBIANCE] 

Dan Pashman: It’s really different.

Sally Helm: I just gasped because the stub wall that we heard so much about is here. Here it is. I wonder if it is 42 inches tall as Stephani wanted it to be. 

Dan Pashman: And, you know, it’s interesting that the stub wall really does separate this table. Because we’re actually — Sally, we’re only like three feet away from this table and we're staring at them very awkwardly ... [LAUGHS] And clearly talking about their table, and they don’t seem to have noticed.

Sally Helm: Yeah, no. I don't feel weird about it. I feel like we can talk here all day.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: The high top, Table 101, is gone. In its place are three tables at normal height. The window is now revealed to the whole restaurant, instead of being blocked by the high table.

Sally Helm: After a bit, Roni shows up. He confirms that the stub wall is indeed exactly 42 inches tall. 

Dan Pashman: Oh, thank goodness. 

Sally Helm: And he thinks that the wall has made a way bigger difference than he ever imagined. 

Roni Mazumdar: So it was a huge learning experience for me as an operator, as to just this kind of a subtle difference, how big of an impact it can have on the emotional state of your guests.

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Roni says the renovations cost about $4,000. So, would it be worth it?

Sally Helm: A few weeks later, we get the data.

Roni Mazumdar: Hi, Stephani. How are you? 

Stephani Robson: Great, Roni. How are you?

Dan Pashman: We got Roni into the studio and called up Stephani.

Sally Helm: Roni had had his team send Stephani the data in advance. Four weeks of customer spending at Table 101 before the renovation, and four weeks in that area after the renovation. She crunched the numbers. She was the only one who had seen the final figures.

Dan Pashman: So Sally, are we ready to hear the results?

Roni Mazumdar: Oh boy, drum roll. 

Sally Helm: Oh my gosh, I’m so ready.

[LAUGHING] 

Stephani Robson: Where would you like to start?

Sally Helm: Stephani had calculated the check average, how much time people were spending at the tables, and also the combination, the spend per minute. Now, remember, even two or three bucks of extra spending per check can mean tens of thousands of dollars per year. And Roni has to cover the cost of both the renovation and losing that seat.

Dan Pashman: Stephani looked at lunch and dinner separately. At lunch, after the renovation, the check average went up. Now the time people spent at tables also went up, but only by a bit. So the key metric, spending per minute, didn’t change enough to be statistically significant. 

Sally Helm: As in, this small change could have just been a random chance. But for dinner ... 

Stephani Robson: The original check average was $36.80, it went up to $45.90 . 

Roni Mazumdar: Whoa.

Dan Pashman: Wow. 

Stephani Robson: Yup, so an increase of $9.10 and that is statistically significant. It's major.

Dan Pashman: Wow. $9 per person. 

Stephani Robson: Per person, just by changing the table.

Roni Mazumdar: That’s huge.

Sally Helm: At dinner, people were actually spending less time at the tables. This was kind of surprising to us, but Roni had an explanation. He now has three small tables in that area instead of the one big high-top for eight, so smaller groups. They eat quicker than bigger ones. 

Dan Pashman: Plus, he found an unexpected benefit, flexibility. He can put these three small tables into any combination, split ‘em up, put em all together. Before, it was one big table. So it would either have a big party, or sit empty. Now, the seats are full more often. 

Sally Helm: So, higher check averages, less time at the tables. This is looking good for the all important spend-per-minute metric, the one Stephani cares the most about.

Dan Pashman: What's the spend per minute then Stephani in, in the new arrangement for dinner?

Stephani Robson: The spend per minute went from 49.3 cents to 68.3 cents. 

All: Whoa!

Stephani Robson: So for an increase of 19 cents

Dan Pashman: Cha ching. Roni's buying lunch today!

[LAUGHING] 

Stephani Robson: That's right. 

Roni Mazumdar: Depending on the table we sit at.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Wow. That's a huge increase.

Stephani Robson: Yeah, very significant. Well, I shouldn't say very significant is significant, but all three of these metrics for dinner, both the average check, the duration, and when you put them together, the spend-per-minute, all of those were significant results. 

Dan Pashman: She means statistically significant. But it's also significant in the other sense, like, meaningful. If you assume those results hold over the course of the year, do some back of the envelope calculations, Adda is likely to make more than enough to cover the cost of losing that seat. They’re on pace to make an extra $18,000 a year. Roni says that's basically the entire utility bill. And they did that just by making the tables more flexible, and more comfortable. 

Sally Helm: Roni told us, that is actually his big takeaway from the experiment. 

Roni Mazumdar: We sometimes get caught up on counting every inch, but maybe the answer isn't just about that extra table, but the quality of the experience that can make a significant impact. 

Dan Pashman: He said he's drawing up plans for a new restaurant now, focused on Indian grilling, kebabs and street food. And this time, no high-top tables.

Roni Mazumdar: We're literally in the process right now for the upcoming restaurant. We're deciding on all the seating. I'm like, "Banquettes! No high-tops! No communal seating!"

Stephani Robson: Send me the drawings. Send me the drawings. I want to have a look!

[LAUGHING] 

Sally Helm: So that was Roni's takeaway. But Dan, you and I were more focused on what this means for us the next time we eat.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, like now I understand why I like to sit up against a wall. So I'm gonna try to do that even more often and that way no one can attack me. 

Sally Helm: Really? Cause I am so sort of like, I don't know if I want to be subtly incepted by design factors to spending more money on food. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I think it's too late for that. 

Sally Helm: I'm not sure I like that. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] All right. Thanks, Sally. This was a lot of fun. Let's do it again, sometime. 

Sally Helm: Thanks, Dan, see you soon.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: A quick update for you: We first went to Adda and talked to Roni and Stephani five years ago. Since then, Roni’s restaurant group, Unapologetic Foods, has opened a bunch of new restaurants. Some of them are Indian fine dining, like Semma and Dhamaka. They also have two fast food Indian fried chicken restaurants called Rowdy Rooster. Adda is still operating in Queens but Roni’s planning to open in a new, bigger Adda location in Manhattan at some point. He tells us, he’s taken what he learned from Stephani and applied it to all of his restaurants.

Dan Pashman: As for Stephani, she retired from Cornell but she’s still consulting with lots of restaurants and retailers. Recently, she worked with a Major League Soccer team to look at the food operations in their stadium. She looked at all the different food items being sold, and how they could adjust the balance and placement of those items to increase spending. Because of her work and recommendations, she says the stadium saw an increase in sales.

Dan Pashman: That's it for this episode, but it's a big week here on The Sporkful, cause this Thursday, we're dropping the fourth and final episode of season 1 of Deep Dish with Sohla and Ham. This one's about the beloved bagel and the time when the mafia tried to get in on the bagel business. There are death threats, there are attempts to sabotage bagel dough, it's very intense. That episode of Deep Dish drops this Thursday.

Dan Pashman: And then next week on the show, I talk with comedian Gary Gulman about his evolution from being a comic who focuses a lot on food to making jokes about his clinical depression, class, and masculinity. That’s next week. 

Dan Pashman: While you’re waiting for those exciting episodes, check out last week’s Salad Spinner, where we touch on the hot-ticket Stanley drinking cup, the current obsession with spicy peppers, and Tiktok’s food-based test of true love.

Dan Pashman: Finally, please remember to preorder my cookbook, Anything’s Pastable. Go to sporkful.com/book for more.