MUSIC

CLIP (DEANNA): Hi Dan and everyone at The Sporkful. My name is Deanna and I live in Walla Walla, Washington. In the New Year, I resolve to eat more food that touches. I have four kids and they all like their food separate. And this is just no way to live. I am so looking forward to focusing on food that piles and touches and all the mixture of flavors and textures and just taking back control of what I eat and focusing on myself in this way and all the yumminess and crunchiness and flavors that are coming with it. Happy 2025, everyone.

CLIP (VERITY): My name is Verity. I live in Arezzo, Italy and in the new year I resolved to eat more chocolate. After years of feeling guilt around eating sweet foods, in 2024 I had a really hard time throughout many points of the year and found myself craving comfort foods, be it grabbing a Twix bar in the grocery store or making a huge batch of chocolate chip cookie dough and freezing it so that I could have a freshly baked chocolate chip cookie anytime I wanted. And instead of feeling guilty about it, I just found myself really enjoying that I was eating chocolate. So I want to bring that energy into 2025 and eat more chocolate.

CLIP (MARY LIN): Hi, Sporkful. This is Mary Lin calling from Malibu, California. This year, my New Year's food resolution is to eat more white chocolate. I used to look down upon white chocolate, thinking of dark chocolate and even milk chocolate as far superior. Then I had my daughter, who was born with a rare kidney stone disease. She can't have darker milk chocolate because they have a lot of oxalate which can cause kidney stones. But she can have as much white chocolate as she wants. This year, I resolved to partake in as much white chocolate as possible with my daughter, Madison, two-years-old. Happy New Year.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show — you know what we do. What do we do? We obsess about food to learn more about people. And if I sound like I'm talking a little slowly, if I sound a little punchy, it's because I am. It's because we made it to the end of the year. It's our end of the year episode and my feet are up and I am ready to relax and hang out with you a little bit here. 

Dan Pashman: Now, throughout this episode, we will be hearing your 2025 New Year's food resolutions. We're already off to a great start. Deanna in Walla Walla talking about food that touches. Look, how many ... I wonder how many dishes, how many serving styles have been invented throughout the ages just because people accidentally had two foods on a plate that touched and they were like, oh, these should always be together? So yeah, let your foods touch, even if your kids are being annoying about it. 

Dan Pashman: As for chocolate and white chocolate, 100% eat more chocolate. And white chocolate, I love white chocolate and I'm sick and tired of these ... of the chocolate people. Chocolate people are very militant. Have you noticed this? They're very aggressive. They're like, well, I'm a chocolate person. Where's the dessert? Are there any chocolate desserts here?" I only want to share this chocolate ice cream with chocolate fudge with chocolate sprinkles on top of chocolate cake. Otherwise, it's not dessert. What's with these people? And they're ... White chocolate's not even chocolate. I don't care what you call it. It's delicious. I love white chocolate, macadamia cookies and ice cream. If you order the Tom Cruise coconut cake that they bake in Los Angeles, which has skyrocketed in price and is now outrageously expensive, but still insanely good — yes, it's a coconut cake, but there's also white chocolate chips in there and that's part of what makes it amazing. So, yes, down with these chocolate militants. Chocolate for all, however you like it. Now, later in the show, I'm going to grade myself on how well I did in fulfilling my 2024 New Year's food resolution, which was to eat more fish. Then I will reveal my own 2025 New Year's food resolution. In between all of that, we're going to replay one of The Sporkful team's favorite episodes of the past year. But before we get into that, let's hear some more of your resolutions.

MUSIC

CLIP ( KIANI): Hi, this is Kiani from New Jersey. And my 2025 food resolution is to eat more artichokes. I recently redid my kitchen and came across two or three unopened jars of marinated artichokes. And I went and opened a newer one and took a bite and realized that I should be doing this more often. Happy New Year.

CLIP (ANTOINETTE): Hello, I'm Antoinette from Basel, Switzerland. The food that I'd resolve to eat more of next year is cinnamon. In my family and my mom and the three kids don't like cinnamon and I'm thinking it's just something that we thought not to like. So this is what I want to do. I want to eat more cinnamon, more and more every month so by the time Christmas comes around 2025, I can eat all of the Christmas season cinnamony flavor. 

CLIP (AMY): Hi, Dan, this is Amy from Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio. In the new year, I resolve to cook and eat more things that take a long time. I had five kids and the youngest is now 16 and dinner was always just what can I get on the table as fast as possible. So now that everyone's older, I want to start cooking and eating differently. I think the first thing I'm going to try is cassoulet and then we'll see where that takes me.

Dan Pashman: Well, Amy, first off, congratulations on getting all or most of your kids out of the house. And I wish you the best in segueing into this new phase of life when you can spend all afternoon cooking to your heart's content and not having anyone bother you or ask for anything or need a ride somewhere. Also Kiani, artichokes — yes, artichokes are amazing. And canned or jarred artichokes, that's all I ever have. That's all I call for in my cookbook in Anything's Pastable. I have never prepped a fresh artichoke from scratch. I don't know how to do it. I'm not about to start. But here — a sandwich. This is kind of a bastardization of how they would do it in Italy, but this is how I like it. Mortadella stracciatella, which is the creamy spreadable insides of a ball of burrata, artichokes and pistachios. If you can get some fresh focaccia, slice it lengthwise and just put that in the center. Oh, it's going to be — you could also do arugula instead of artichokes. You could do both, but that might be gilding the lily, even for me.

Dan Pashman: Anyway, it is time now to replay one of The Sporkful team's favorite episodes in the past year and we have some specific criteria for how we choose this. First off, we're going to pick one from the first half of the year, not one we just played. Second of all, it's an episode that we, who work on the show, really, really loved, but maybe for whatever reason, we just didn't feel like we got as much of a reaction from you all, from our lovely listeners as we expected or hoped we would get. You know, look, maybe it was a busy week for you. No hard feelings, but because we want you to appreciate how wonderful this episode is, we're replaying it. And if you heard it the first time, listen again. It's that good because this one really stuck with me. It's a conversation with comedian Gary Gulman. It went back and forth between hilarious and heartfelt, which is indicative of Gary's comedy. So here is my conversation with Gary Goldman. 

Dan Pashman: Well, let me backup for a second, Gary. This is a food podcast.

Gary Gulman: No, I know.

Dan Pashman: Oh, okay. 

Gary Gulman: I'm familiar. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Okay, good, good ... 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: So, um ... 

Gary Gulman: And I also have a theory on the word "spork" that I want to put a bookmark in, so ... 

Dan Pashman: Let's do it.

Gary Gulman: You want to do that right now?

Dan Pashman: Yeah, cause I don't wanna forget. 

Gary Gulman: Okay. The first time I heard somebody refer to the cafeteria spoon fork as a spork, I thought, wow, that is — I didn't know the word portmanteau yet. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Gary Gulman: Because it — there weren't that many portmanteaus.

Dan Pashman: Right. Yeah. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: So I was, I found that very clever. I was like, oh, a spoon and fork. And I remembered there was something that bugged me about it and I wasn't able to articulate it. And then I realized that last summer, I said, "Oh, the reason I never cared for that portmanteau was because it was an inaccurate depiction of the fork's contribution to that utensil.

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: And so, the fork is not doing half the work. It's not half the utensil. It's mostly spoon. And so, I think if they were to be ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: If they were to be honest with the contribution of fork to the, what we know as the spork, it would not be called the spork. It would be called — and I'll need complete silence for this. Okay, it would be called the spoon-k.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Because you cannot gain purchase with the tines of a spork on any food more durable than raviolis. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Which is the singular form of ravioli that I've just invented. I'm hoping it'll take off like the spork did. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Okay, let’s get to the show. Gary Gulman is the kind of comic that other comics love. He's obsessive about language, and the craft of comedy. He's been doing stand-up for 30 years, and he's one of only a handful of people who've done sets on every single late-night show. Early in his career, Gary did so many bits about food, he jokingly called himself "a strictly food-based comic". He did a lot of observational comedy, like in this 2006 bit about Fig Newtons:

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): When I was a — let me tell you a little story. When I was a kid, you could only get figs in your Newtons. And I’m proud of them because they’ve turned the Newton industry on its ass. I am so proud of them because you could only get figs, which is a pretty — I give them credit for that. That’s a pretty bold move to dedicate your entire product line to the fig of all fruits. A fig? I’ve never seen a fig outside of a Newton in my life. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): A fig could walk down those steps right now and I’d be dumbfounded. 

Dan Pashman: About 10 years ago, Gary's comedy started to evolve in a new direction, and the role of food in his act started changing too. Today, we’re gonna talk about that evolution.

Dan Pashman: But first, a little backstory. Gary grew up in a Jewish family in Peabody, Massachusetts in the '70s and '80s. His parents were divorced, and Gary and his two older brothers lived with their mom. She worked at the Hallmark Store in the mall and she sometimes brought Gary along with her.

Gary Gulman: I couldn't really hang out in the store because the boss would be there and he frowned upon the babysitting that was going on. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: And I was 8 or 9-years-old, and I would wander the mall from Toys “R” Us to Musicland to Bookends, and then I made friends with the kids that worked at the Orange Julius. They were teenagers, and they saw me so frequently, and I bought so many hot dogs there that I — eventually, they gave me an account ...

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: And then if their manager wasn't there, they would give me free hot dogs and Julii ...

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: And it was just this great — and pretzels also that it was a great scene, man. It was a good time to eat because I wasn't aware of the detrimental effects of hot dogs on my ...

Dan Pashman: I'm still not aware of them. 

Gary Gulman: Um ... [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Are there ... No. I haven't read about that. 

Gary Gulman: They're pure poison, I think. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I'm still standing.

Gary Gulman: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: So for folks of a younger generation, they may not know the Orange Julius.

Gary Gulman: Interesting. 

Dan Pashman: Like, it was sort of like a creamsicle flavored beverage. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. Yeah, but they also had a pineapple version and a strawberry version. They had a powder that was proprietary, probably. There was probably a Coke formula aspect to the formula.

Dan Pashman: Right. Well, so I was so curious, you know, [Gary Gulman: Okay.] getting ready to chat with you. I went on the website.

Gary Gulman: Nice.

Dan Pashman: And this is the description of the — of how they make an Orange Julius, so the ingredients. It says, "Real Orange", this is in capital R, capital O, "Real Orange blended together with a secret ingredient ... "

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: "... to Orange Julius frothy perfection."

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Capitalized.

Gary Gulman: Yeah, that's odd. 

Dan Pashman: But there's a word that you expect to come after real orange, that is conspicuously ... 

Gary Gulman: Juice.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Right. [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Yes.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Conspicuously absent in the description. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: That's so interesting. Yeah, it's a fraud.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: But the thing that I forgot was that it was one of the early blender drink shops. Outside of a bar, you didn't really get a lot of blended drinks. And now, of course, with Jamba Juice and all the ... 

Dan Pashman: And the frappuccinos … 

Gary Gulman: Also the frappuccinos ... 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Gary Gulman: I don't know if you've ever worked in a blended drink location. 

Dan Pashman: I have not. I’ve waited tables, but I didn't do that.

Gary Gulman: Yeah, I worked at a Starbucks and if there were two or more people who wanted a frappuccino and I was by myself, I would be tempted to close the shop.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: Because I would get so behind, and I was slow to begin with. I hardly ever order any kind of blended drink, but when I do, I tip. I leave a $20 because I know .... I know how horrific ... 

Dan Pashman: Really? 

Gary Gulman: I know how horrifically arduous that position is and ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I'm all for a good tipping, but $20 on a frappuccino is very generous. 

Gary Gulman: The 20 is a new five. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: The ... My dad was very generous with tipping. No matter how broke we were, frequently it was about an $8 meal between me and him at IHOP and he would leave a five. And so, doing the math, that's the, what I'm valued at, is probably a $20 [Dan Pashman: Okay.] is the equivalent nowadays. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Money was something Gary noticed a lot when he was a kid, because his family didn’t have a lot of it. They never went hungry or lost their housing, but they did sometimes struggle to pay their gas or electric bills. They were on food stamps and Gary got free lunch at school. Meanwhile, some of his friends were going out to a nearby restaurant where jackets were required. 

Gary Gulman: They would go as a family. And I remember thinking, "Oh man, that would be so swanky," but not only could we probably not afford the meal, the clothing required ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Required to get in would be cost prohibitive. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: In the '90s, Gary got into the Boston comedy scene. Eventually, he moved to L.A., and in 1999 he did his first set on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. Early on, Gary saw an opportunity to make jokes about food.

Gary Gulman: There weren't a lot of comedians talking about food, who weren't really talking about being overweight. John Pinette, who is a legend in Boston, had these great jokes about the buffet and how much he liked to eat. But essentially, they were jokes mocking himself for being so overweight. And then you had Jerry Seinfeld who talked a little bit about breakfast cereal on the Seinfeld show and he seemed to have some food jokes. But the thing that I insisted on when I first started doing comedy was it was being original. And so I found this was sort of an inefficiency in the market, that there weren't a lot of comedians who were talking about food. They were mostly talking about drinking, drugs, sex, dating. I really was able to write a lot of food jokes. Probably my first album, there were probably 20 minutes of jokes. One was, like, a 10-minute diatribe called "The hierarchy of cookies", in which I examined every cookie I could think of. And then there was this other one about my disdain for the grapefruit.

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): So, I love grapes — hate grapefruit. Hate it. Isn’t that interesting that they have such similar names. No similar properties. Grape: delicious, a masterpiece, way to go God. Grapefruit: vile, inedible, so bad it should be a vegetable. I hate the grapefruit. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS AND APPLAUDS] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): The only reason the grapefruit was even invented ... The only reason was because God wanted us to have something to compare the size of a tumor to. That’s the only reason.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): There’s only one fruit that the grapefruit cannot destroy, won’t destroy: the grape! Another reason to love the grape because the grape had the courage, the guts, the balls, if I may, to say to grapefruit, hey, stay the hell back I’ve got a reputation to uphold okay? I’m the grape, I’m doing very well for myself and you’re not gonna screw it up for me, okay? I’m in everything. I’m in jelly, I’m in jam, I’m in juice, I’m in soda, I’m in gum, I’m in wine. Even when I’m dead, I’m a raisin. Yeah, yeah. I don’t go rotten, I go raisin. How’s that?

Gary Gulman: The default approach for most comedians of that time was to take something and shit on it, whether it be McDonald's or certain ice cream. And I thought, well, I'll be different by saying I love this. I love this thing, especially if it's something that's not appreciated. I went on this polemic about the grapefruit, but then I realized what my approach usually was. And I said, well, I can't go all negative, I have to talk about these other fruits that are so much better [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] and how the grapefruit is a ... 

Dan Pashman: Also, I mean, how much of a backlash ... 

Gary Gulman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I know. 

Dan Pashman: Is an anti-grapefruit screed going to provoke? [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Does anybody … I mean, I will enjoy a grapefruit every once in a while. I’ve acquired more of a taste for [Gary Gulman: Right. Yeah.] tart flavors in my older age. But I don’t know that I'm ever like, oh yeah ... 

Gary Gulman: Right. 

Dan Pashman: Let's get into this grapefruit. 

Gary Gulman: I mean, I probably haven't had one, so I've never given myself this opportunity to acquire the taste, but …

Dan Pashman: Wait, you've never had a grapefruit? 

Gary Gulman: No. But I …

Dan Pashman: Wait. Whoa, whoa. whoa. 

Gary Gulman: Well ... 

Dan Pashman: You wrote this whole ...

Gary Gulman: I've tasted grapefruit juice. 

Dan Pashman: Oh. [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. Yeah, I feel I did enough research to [Dan Pashman: Okay.] make an informed ... 

Dan Pashman: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. 

Gary Gulman: An informed takedown of the grapefruit.

[LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: I didn't realize this was going to be a gotcha interview.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Gary made his name as a comic with jokes like these grapefruit bit or the ones about Fig Newtons — sharply written, opinionated, observational comedy. But his work wasn’t personal. There wasn't some deeper meaning to the jokes. 

Dan Pashman: Then Gary entered what I'll call act II of his comedy career, in the 2010s. He had already been on Last Comic Standing and he was gaining wider popularity. His jokes started becoming more long-form and elaborate, winding stories with hilarious detours. And we started to see more of him in the jokes. There were hints at his own struggles with money, and his indignance at some of the injustices in the world. Here's a clip from his 2012 Comedy Central special, called In This Economy?.

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): There are some moments in the journey of being broke that are ... suck. They suck. Like I went on a date to a nice restaurant, a decent restaurant, and the woman ordered something that cost market price. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): You know, when she goes to order, I’m keeping score on my menu. When she goes to order, I’m like, “Market price ... What could it be?" 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): And you cannot ask. Do not — that’s a good piece of dating advice. When she orders something that’s market price — whoa whoa whoa whoa. Let’s just check in to see what market price is today because ... I wanted to say to the waiter, just out of curiosity and not because I can't afford it, what did lobster close at today? Just .... I wasn’t able to contact my seafood broker at the end of trading today and I just ... I wonder how much it fluctuated because I have an index fund that’s made up heavily of crustaceans and other ... Some other mollusk type… There’s a lot of shellfish in there, which is ironic because I’m a Jew but still, I mean ... 

Gary Gulman: I've found it in my career the poorer I was, the better jokes I would write about being poor. Like, and also the better jokes. Like I found that my desperation and also, the fact that it's such a universally understood, if not universally empathized idea, of being broke — people love those stories. And I think one of the great things that comedy does, for good and bad, is let people off the hook. And I think for a long time, people have felt more comfortable with their own failures financially when a comedian they admire admits to being broke or unwise with money. But it's unusual for comedians to talk about being well off until they're celebrities. And then there seems to be this thing where they tell you about the celebrities and their money management and how much money they have and they — it just seems to be a death knell for creativity to be that out of touch financially with the average American ... 

Dan Pashman: That's interesting. 

Gary Gulman: Or human. 

Dan Pashman: I think ... I wonder what — how much of it is a matter of being out of touch and how much of it is that desperation is creative fuel?

Gary Gulman: Uh-huh. 

Dan Pashman: If you're going to do your best work, you need to feel a little bit like it could all fall apart at any second. 

Gary Gulman: [LAUGHS] Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Because you need that pressure. And once you get to a point in your career where there is no pressure ... 

Gary Gulman: I think there's some of that, but I also think that there's a level of pressure that is counterproductive in that it leads to anxiety and depression. So there's probably a sweet spot, but I also know that I've never ... I've never been more comfortable in my career in terms of, I used to — every time something would go well, I would think, "Oh, I'll be able to pay rent for another year." And I feel like I am in a position now where I can cover rent for the next four or five years, if things fall apart. [LAUGHS] Anyhow, there — yeah, I think there's a sweet spot of between desperation and complete fear of an imminent demise or tragic bankruptcy. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Coming up, Gary gets very far away from that sweet spot, and veers into desperation when his mental health unravels. But that opens the door to a new era of his comedy, when he begins using food jokes in a very different way. We'll hear that, plus, we'll hear more of your 2025 food resolutions. And I'll share my own. Stick around.

 

MUSIC

 

Dan Pashman: I am so happy that American Express is the presenting sponsor of today's episode because I love American Express. I have an AmEx Personal Gold card. If you dine out often, I strongly recommend the Amex Gold Card. So when you go to eat, you use your Amex Gold Card — first of all, you break out an AmEx Gold Card, you know, you just — you kind of feel like a V.I.P., but also when you dine out, you get extra points at restaurants and those points add up fast. Before you know it, you're gonna have enough points for flight somewhere. Cardholders can enroll and earn up to $120 back in statement credits after paying at participating dining partners, up to $10 each month and get up to $120 back annually after you pay with the American Express Gold Card to dine at U.S. Resy restaurants, or make other eligible Resy purchases. Like I said, with my AmEx Gold Card, I just feel like a V.I.P. and I feel like I'm always racking up points. I get 4 times points at restaurants globally on up to $50,000 annually. AmEx Gold rewards your love of dining experiences allowing you to check out new restaurants, connect with your family and friends, and explore exciting flavors all while earning points. That's the powerful backing of American Express. For terms and to learn more, visit AmericanExpress.com/withamex.

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman, and I am just about to pack my bags and head to the great city of Memphis. On January 16th. I'll be at the Buckman Arts Center live on stage, talking with local restaurateur and artist Karen Blockman Carrier. She is a great storyteller. She is a local legend and it's going to be a blast. This is just a few weeks away, so get your tickets now at Sporkful.com/events. Thanks. 

Dan Pashman: Now, before we get back to Gary Gulman, let's hear a few more of your resolutions.

MUSIC

CLIP (ANDREA): Hi, Dan, this is Andrea in Portland, Oregon. I resolve to eat more food out of a food cart this year. You may have heard that Portland is one of America's top food truck cities. We actually have over 500 of them here. And I have eaten my fair share amount of food out of a cart or a truck, but [LAUGHS] there are so many more to experience that I need to get at it. 

CLIP (LINDA): Hi, this is Linda from Massachusetts. In 2025, I resolve to eat more oysters. They're very healthy, lots of protein and many other nutrients. They're good for the environment. And the oyster farming industry has really given many fishermen a new life.

CLIP (MANDY): Hi, Dan, this is Mandy from Brooklyn. My 2025 resolution is to cook more recipes for my large collection of basically new cookbooks. Stop googling recipes at 4 P.M. out of desperation, because I'm surprised I once again have to feed myself and my husband and start cracking open my shiny unsplattered books to find my dinner from there. Happy eating.

Dan Pashman: All right. Shout out to my mom. Thanks, Mom. I hope you enjoy your oysters. And Mandy, yeah. Cookbooks crack them open. You know, it's like it feels daunting. It feels daunting, I know, but you can do it.

Dan Pashman: Okay, back to the comedian Gary Gulman. And a quick heads up that we drop a couple of F-bombs in this next segment. We’re also going to talk about mental health and suicide, so please take care when listening.

Dan Pashman: In Act II of Gary's comedy career, he went from clever observations about the little things, to connecting those little things to his personal life, and to larger systemic issues. Act III, we'll see him moving more in this direction, talking openly for the first time about his struggles with severe clinical depression. Gary believes he's had depression since he was a child. The first time he sought help was when he was in college. He went on medication and saw professionals in the years that followed. But in 2017, things really cratered. His depression got so bad that he could barely get out of bed. He could no longer work and he contemplated suicide. At the urging of his psychiatrist, Gary admitted himself into a psychiatric ward. During that time, he received electroconvulsive therapy, among other treatments. He believes it saved his life.

Dan Pashman: A couple years later, he released a comedy special that details all of this. It’s a bracingly funny look at that dark period in his life. But while Gary was going through it, his comedy was full of not-so-subtle hints at his mental state. During our conversation, I played him a clip from a set he did on Colbert, just a few months before his first hospitalization ...

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): Why is it so hard to get out of bed? I'll tell you why. Because the thing they don’t tell you growing up about life is this. Life: Hm? It’s every single day. Every single day you have to wake up and live and go through all the maintenance and the upkeep and ugh, I can't wait to have a caregiver.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): The thing that gets me through though is donuts and ice cream. I love ice cream, but I have this thing where I have to — I don't want to eat the entire pint. So I say just eat half the pint. But then when I get halfway through, I have this compulsion where I need to leave a flat surface.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): Who, who am I leaving the flat surface — for the day crew?

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): But I find myself eating it flat. I eat more and then I’ll come across a chocolate chunk and I'll have to excavate that. Then it starts to melt around the edges. And that's delicious, so I have to eat that. Before I know it, I've hit bottom. Literally and figuratively, I've hit bottom. And I just ... I finish the ice cream and I put the fork down. I — more often than not, I use a fork to eat ice cream. And if you eat ice cream with a fork, I know you so well. I know you so well. Because my policy is I'm not washing a spoon until I’m all out of forks. And people say, "Why don't you just wash a spoon?" Ha! Why don't I shower?

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

Gary Gulman: I probably hadn't listened to that since I — I mean, I don't know that — I probably watched it that night. I may not have. I'm shocked at how good the audience was because I remember it in my head, I remember thinking, "Ah, that didn't go very well. They didn't really care for me." And, and now I realize it was my depressed brain telling me that they hated me [LAUGHS] because it sounds like they were having a good time. But also, I mean, and I'm sure you noticed this, I was ill. I was really sick. That was the only thing I did that day was go put on a suit and go on The Colbert Show. Like I was not functioning as an adult really. And yet, did not feel comfortable telling anybody why I couldn't ... Why I couldn't wash a spoon. And it's a dog whistle if you're depressed, you know exactly what I was going through. People have told me that they were like, "Oh yeah, we knew something was up," but I wasn't comfortable mentioning that I was depressed ... 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, like, watching it now, having some small inkling of what you were going through, like the whole routine felt almost like a cry for help. 

Gary Gulman: [LAUGHS] Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But also incredibly funny. 

Gary Gulman: I mean that — as sad a moment as that was, having that joke was sort of — I wrote the entire Great Depresh special around that joke, because that was the first joke that I had about depression.

Dan Pashman: That ice cream bit was a very different type of food joke than the one's Gary did earlier in his career. But even though he says it was depression in that Colbert appearance, Gary never used the word depressed, or depression. Two years later though after his treatment, that changed. The word was in the name of his HBO special. It’s called, The Great Depresh. And for the special, he made some small but important tweaks to the ice cream joke. 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): More times than not I would eat ice cream with a fork, which is like an unofficial symptom of depression. He's like, well, why does that mean you're depressed? It may not, but it does mean at least that you did not possess the zest to wash a spoon.

Gary Gulman: I just changed a little bit by saying, this is what it's like to be depressed. You eat ice cream with a fork and if you're eating ice cream with a fork, I can pretty much diagnose you. [LAUGHS] And the context changes when you say, these are some of the unofficial symptoms of depression. So then the tone becomes a little heavier, a little bit more somber. But when you're able to mix the heavy with the humor, you get some really, really special connections with the audience. I always did meet and greets after my shows and the meet and greets were much different once I started talking about being hospitalized and my depression. They were much more meaningful and deeper. So it was a great way to evolve as an artist to do something that was personal and also rewarding and in that way. There's a version of my career where I just continued to do the very clever observational humor that didn’t really hit people in a deeper way, and I'm sure I would have been fine with that. But this way, I feel very fortunate and very grateful to make that, I guess, pivot.

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Dan Pashman: The success of The Great Depresh, and Gary’s deeper connection with his audience, gave him confidence to continue to tackle more substantive issues in his work. A few months ago he released his latest special Born on 3rd Base. In it, he talks about growing up poor and makes bigger points about income inequality and class. One bit skewers entitled customers at Chipotle, who point aggressively at each ingredient as they tell the worker behind the counter what should go in their burrito:

[CLIP BORN ON 3RD BASE] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): Like going to Chipotle, you may not have noticed this before tonight, but I assure you you will never not notice it after tonight. The people in front of you at Chipotle as they direct the assembly of their burrito, they wag their fingers at other humans. That is staggeringly condescending. Also, completely unnecessary. They know where the corn is. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): You found it, you don’t even work here!

Dan Pashman: This Chipotle bit, aside from just being on point about the way that people — a lot of people feel entitled to talk to service workers ... 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: The whole sort of assembly line-ification [Gary Gulman: Right.] of the dining experience. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: I remember when Chipotle first burst on the scene. The whole idea, like, going down the assembly line [Gary Gulman: Yeah.] and picking your components felt very special. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah, yeah. 

Dan Pashman: You felt like you — you felt empowered.

Gary Gulman: Totally. 

Dan Pashman: But now I sort of feel like there's so many places like that.

Gary Gulman: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: To me, I feel like it's kind of degraded the eating experience a little bit.

Gary Gulman: Interesting.

Dan Pashman: Because it just creates this very sort of like, we need to get you your calories so that you can stay alive [GARY GULMAN LAUGHS] as fast as possible.

Gary Gulman: Right.

Dan Pashman: And we need to get you out of here as fast as possible [Gary Gulman: Yeah.] because we need to run as many people through this restaurant as we can. It feels a little bit dehumanized to me. 

Gary Gulman: No, I get it. I understand that totally. And it also, so for instance, when I go to Sweetgreen, I always get the shroomami. But it's also like the chef has made these choices. Like there's never been better chefs or more access to them and we can't trust them to design our meals for us. And I can see saying I would like the burrito and please, pinto instead of black beans, [Dan Pashman: Right, right.] or something like that. 

Dan Pashman: You're hitting on something. The whole idea of sort of like when you go to a sit down restaurant, you may have a few small — like maybe you'll say, oh, can you, you know, hold the onions or whatever. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But, like, basically, you're gonna order what the chef ... 

Gary Gulman: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Like that's why you go to the restaurant.

Gary Gulman: Yes!

Dan Pashman: And somehow there's this — you know, we've been sold this idea that you want to be empowered to create your own.

Gary Gulman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: But in reality, most people don't want that.

Gary Gulman: No. 

Dan Pashman: Like most of us ... 

Gary Gulman: I want to be shoved around. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. [LAUGHS] Right. Like it's stressful to have to make [Gary Gulman: Yes!] a lot of decisions. 

Gary Gulman: Yes.

Dan Pashman: People get flummoxed by the paradox of choice.

Gary Gulman: Totally. I have this idea of what my mentality would be like as a chef, and that I would be the type of chef that would look through the double doors out into the dining room. And if somebody was putting salt or pepper or anything, I would fly into a rage [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] and would have to be held back. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But that's like the equivalent of, like, people telling me they listen to my podcast on 1.5x speed.

Gary Gulman: Oh! What an insult!

Dan Pashman: That's the equivalent of dumping a bunch of salt on the chef's entree. Can you imagine if someone put on one of your comedy specials?

Gary Gulman: Ugh.

Dan Pashman: And was like, I think it's better if I pause it every 30 seconds. No, like the timing is part of the thing. 

Gary Gulman: You're absolutely right. It's the same thing.

Dan Pashman: If you fast forward, or speed up the pauses, you're fucking with our timing! 

Gary Gulman: Yeah, but you're also fucking with your own enjoyment and your own quality of life. And what are you getting from it? Another second to scroll in your stupid twee ... 

Dan Pashman: That's right. 

Gary Gulman: Twitter? X

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: X

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]

Gary Gulman: Ugh. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: So Gary’s new comedy special takes on entitled Chipotle customers. But his most pointed commentary on class comes in a bit about the free breakfast program he was in at school when he was a kid. Students like Gary were offered a choice between a variety pack size box of cereal or a Pop Tart.

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): The Pop-Tart was just a complete F you to the poor kids who were eating it. First of all, it was just one Pop-Tart. I knew they came in packs of two. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): I’m poor, I am not stupid! And then the other thing about the Pop-Tart, they had enough frosting to spread it all the way to the edge. I’m sure there was a person in the factory who said, "Hey boss, we have a lot of extra frosting today. Do you want to spread it all the way to the edge for the next batch?" And he said, "Do you ever want these kids to ever stop sucking at the government teat? That bitter crust will remind them of what their futures are going to look like!”

Gary Gulman: I love it when something small can evoke an idea that's bigger than itself. For instance, the latest show, I thought, all right, Pop-Tarts are a very easy target. But the real thing for me with Pop-Tarts is that it's this really interesting class commentary. Certain jokes have to vie for a roster spot in your act. And so, if a joke is just surface, it's probably not gonna make it to the special, because I can write those all day long. They're very easy for me. But when a joke can talk about, okay, the Pop-Tart, but also talk about this thing where we've been ignored or slighted in some way, then it earns a roster spot because it's doing two things. 

Dan Pashman: What is your relationship with Pop-Tarts today, Gary? 

Gary Gulman: Oh, we don't ... We don't see each other. We don't have a — I mean, is my — this thing of self denial, like I — sometimes I think my life is — and I really believe this. Since I've been feeling myself for the past six years, I think, man, is life so wonderful. And I have to dial it down a little bit, because if I were able to eat anything I wanted, it would be too pleasant and I would feel guilty and ashamed. [LAUGHS] So if I could eat sushi and French fries all the time, it would be decadence. I would be like the last days of the Roman empire. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: And do you think that comes from growing up poor or ...

Gary Gulman: Certainly, yeah.

Dan Pashman: Or battling depression or both? 

Gary Gulman: I mean, both the anxiety of growing up poor lends itself to depression and there's all these fears in it and it's a worry about your security. And capitalism has this great mechanism to keep everybody on their toes so that you keep having to hoard it because you don't know if there's going to be a rainy day or you'll find out that your business has gone obsolete.

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Dan Pashman: If you leave this interview with one feeling, Gary, I want it to be the feeling that you've made it. 

Gary Gulman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: And so I bought you this box of Pop-Tarts. 

Gary Gulman: Oh, wow. This is awesome.

Dan Pashman: Now, I'm not going to tell you what to eat and not eat.

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But I would like to encourage you to have a Pop-Tart.

Gary Gulman: No, I will have one of these. Yeah, I definitely ... 

Dan Pashman: I think you've earned it.

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

[LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: And I will toast it. I mean, I ate them raw when I was a ... 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Gary Gulman: When I was a kid. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: I want you to toast it, and I give you permission to enjoy it. 

Gary Gulman: I really appreciate it. Thank you.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: That, my friends, is the one and only Gary Gulman. His latest special is streaming on Max, is called Born on Third Base. Max is also where you can find the Great Depresh. And starting in just about a week, Gary is doing a one man show off-Broadway. It's at the Lucille Lortel Theater. The show is called Grandiloquent. I already have my tickets. I'm going to be there. Grandiloquent is Gary Goldman's hilarious new show about insecurity, empathy, self-acceptance and how a thoughtful boy learned to use humor, reading, and writing to cope with the consequences of his parents blunders. I'm sure it's going to be great. I can't wait. Get your tickets now at GulmmanShow.com. 

Dan Pashman: All right, now resolution time. So first off, in 2024, I resolved to eat more fish. I will give myself a grade of — I guess, I'm going to say B+. I did eat a good amount of fish. It wasn't all that much more than usual. But like, I live on an island, I feel like I should be eating a lot of fish. And yet, often the whatever sort of protein entree is on our plates at dinner is often something that's been in my freezer, and I sort of feel more — I think I have a mental block that, like, I want to buy fish at the fish market, which requires, like, a special trip. And it's also expensive and then it's fresh and I have to cook it that night. It's not going to, you know, sit in the fridge for long. So what I've just started doing here at the very end of the year is buying more fish frozen, just a good quality fish frozen. Because when it's in the freezer, then it's sort of like last minute, oh it's two o’clock in the afternoon, what are we going to have for dinner, grab some fish to defrost it, cook it. So I give myself a B+, but I think I'm going to be able to do even better in 2025. 

Dan Pashman: I will say probably the single best fish dish that I cooked at home this year was — I took halibut. I just olive oil, salt and pepper, broiled it till it was just cooked. And then I made the — so there's a recipe in Anything's Pastable for a swordfish pasta dish with a salsa verde. That sauce is insane with any kind of meaty fish. And it's a no-cook sauce. You just pound a bunch of parsley, chives, capers, anchovies, lemon zest and it's just so, like, herbaceous and fresh and bright and briny and acidic and perfectly balanced. Just make the sauce but use half the olive oil so it's a little bit thicker. It's almost like an oily pesto. After you've cooked the halibut or any kind of meaty whitefish, you drizzle this on top. And it's bright green. It's very colorful. It adds a ton of flavor. It adds color. It was an absolute showstopper. 

Dan Pashman: That was then. This is now. Let's look ahead to 2025. So what food do I resolve to eat more of in the New Year? I gave it a lot of thought. You know, sometimes these are based a little bit just on, like, what I happen to be craving kind of this week, what's on the brain. But then I kind of think about it and think about it and I just … I feel like this is an area where I need to dive deeper. And that's kind of how I'm feeling right now. So let me reveal it and I'll explain. Okay?

Dan Pashman: In 2025, I resolved to eat more ... Now we don't have sound effects. I was going to do a drum roll on the table. Let me adjust the microphone ... [DRUMROLL] ... Special sandwiches. All right. Let me explain. Let me explain. You're like what? I eat sandwiches. I eat plenty of sandwiches. But I feel that too often I'm eating sandwiches, like by throwing together what I happen to have in the fridge. I'm not putting enough thought into my sandwiches. And I have noticed that sandwiches continue to get short shrift in the culinary world. Okay? Think about all the cookbooks there are that tell you that, you know, we're going to teach you to cook. You're not going to need recipes anymore. We're gonna teach you — and they have appetizers, entrees, desserts, salads, soups, drinks. I mean, everything you can imagine, and no chapter on sandwiches. Does the Culinary Institute of America have a course on sandwiches? I don't think so. And yet they're one of the greatest things in the world. 

Dan Pashman: And here's the thing that really bothers me. I don't think we consider making a sandwich to be cooking. And yet, it requires more skill than making a plate of pasta, more skill than boiling water, more skill than a lot of other very basic foods. So I am going to put more thought into my sandwiches this year. Really ... I said special sandwiches. I guess, I really mean thoughtful sandwiches. I'm going to plan to get the fillings. I'm going to plan to get the bread. I'm going to think through the condiments and I'm going to take time and I'm going to take care not only in the combination of the greens, but in thinking through the structural integrity of the sandwich so that bite force does not cause any ingredients to slip out the back, which of course is a very serious issue in today's world. 

Dan Pashman: So that is my resolution. In fact, maybe I'll start with that mortadella and stracciatella and pistachio sandwich. Let me tell — this place called Eduardo's Trattoria. If you live anywhere — I shouldn't be talking about it on the show, cause I'll never be able to get in the door. Eduardo's Trattoria in Huntington, one of my favorite Italian restaurants in the New York metro area, also has great lunch, and they do great mortadella, mozzarella and pistachio sandwich at lunch — phenomenal. I'm going to go talk to Eduardo and get — I gotta go talk sandwiches with him. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Whatever your resolution is, whatever you're resolving tomorrow in the New Year, I hope you succeed. I hope you have a wonderful holiday season. I hope you have time with family and or friends. I hope you spend time with whoever you want to spend time with and that you eat really well on the way. And I want to say thank you so much for listening to this show. I mean, look, we make this podcast every week. We kind of put it out into the void when we hit publish and it means so much to hear from so many of you. And in particular this year, we did the biggest tour in Sporkful history for my cookbook, Anything's Pastable, and it was really — honestly, the highlight of the year for me was going around the country and even to Canada and England and meeting Sporkful listeners all over the world and just hearing how much the show means to you and how much you connect with it. And just knowing that this show we make and that the work that we do is a part of your lives is very meaningful and we really, really appreciate it. So thank you so much. 

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, I'm talking with Jamie Oliver, the British celebrity chef. He's written bestselling books even though he's dyslexic. He got into cooking at a young age working in his parents pub. We'll talk about that and more, including his secret for a perfect toasted cheese sandwich. See? Sandwiches. Now I can't stop talking about it. While you're waiting for that one, check out last week's salad spinner where we look back at food news and trends from the past year. That one's up now.

Dan Pashman: And hey, did you know that you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? Then there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXM.com/sporkful.

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Dan Pashman: Thank you to our presenting sponsor American Express. AmEx Gold makes your dining experiences more rewarding so you can discover more, connect more, and experience more dining moments. Enjoy every meal with the benefits that come with American Express Gold. For terms and to learn more, visit AmericanExpress.com/withamex.