Dan Pashman: Hey there, Dan here with another Sporkful Reheat for you. This one features a conversation taped live on stage with comedian Hari Kondabolu, who is this guy — you know, he's thoughtful, he's hilarious, he's insightful, and I spoke with him in the months after the release of his documentary, The Problem with Apu, which delved into some of the problematic aspects of that Simpsons character — the ways that it played up racial stereotypes. So we got into that. We also covered a lot of other ground, including a recurring dream that Hari used to have when he was a kid, where he was locked in a bakery overnight by himself, surrounded by donuts, cupcakes, pies, Napoleons. ... So you're going to hear about that, too, and more.

Dan Pashman: Now, as always, if there's an episode of The Sporkful you want us to pull out of the deep freezer, please let us know. Send me an email or a voice memo to hello@sporkful.com. Tell me your name, where you are, what episode you want us to reheat, and why. Thanks so much and enjoy my conversation with Hari Kondabolu.

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And we're coming to you live from The Bell House in Brooklyn, New York!

[AUDIENCE CHEERS AND APPLAUDS]

Dan Pashman: That was great. I told you we didn't need to practice.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Joining me now is a standup comedian whose work I have loved for so many years. He's smart and silly and incisive, and he manages to get into some pretty deep issues of identity and politics without ever losing sight of the fact that he's a comedian. Last fall, his documentary, The Problem with Apu, all about The Simpsons character, got a ton of attention — we'll talk about that a little later. His new stand up special debuts on Netflix May 8th. It's called Warn Your Relatives. Please welcome Hari Kondabolu!

[AUDIENCE CHEERS AND APPLAUDS]

Dan Pashman: Great to see you, Hari.  

Hari Kondabolu: It's good to see you, Dan. 

Dan Pashman:  Thanks so much for being here. Is your mic in a comfortable place for you? 

Hari Kondabolu: No, not at all. Should I adjust it?

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Yeah, you actually — beforehand they said to me they were like, "This guest you're having, can he hold his own microphone?"

Hari Kondabolu: Oh, can I do that? Am I allowed?

Dan Pashman: Will you be more comfortable? Sure. Do that? Yeah. I mean, you held a microphone. That’s better. 

Hari Kondabolu: Oh yeah. Yeah. This is how my people do it. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. [ LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: Comedians.

Dan Pashman: Right ... [LAUGHS] So, Hari, let's get right into it. I want to jump right into the most pressing issues of our time. You recently did a Grub Street diet.

Hari Kondabolu: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: Now, Grub Street, for folks in not the New York area, it's a food web site in New York and they do a Grub Street diet thing where they have a notable person write about everything they eat for a week and I always love it. It's a great insight into all different people. You wrote in there that you used to have dreams about being locked in a bakery overnight ...

Hari Kondabolu: Mmm.

Dan Pashman: And eating everything.

Hari Kondabolu: Yes.

Dan Pashman: And then, like, you just stopped. Like, I wanted the rest of the article to be about that. Like, walk me through the dream hard and don't leave it and don't leave out any detail. 

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah, I would have gotten locked in a bakery and then I would have gone and eaten various baked goods. 

Dan Pashman: What baked goods? 

Hari Kondabolu: Oh, I mean, we're talk — donuts, cupcakes, full cakes, pies of Napoleons ... Also, sometimes in the dreams, it wasn't just one particular — it was like, you'd have, like, stuff from a Mexican bakery and an Italian bakery and like, all these different cultures' bakeries in one magical bakery. 

Dan Pashman: And all the food is good stuff? Everything was really good?

Hari Kondabolu: Well, I was happy in the dream. You know, I was very content. I mean, at the end of the day, it all had sugar in it. So, you know, it was great. God, you know, the thing is, some dreams I wish I still had and that's one I wish I still had.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: That ended with childhood, but why should it? I mean, I still have — okay, here's the thing. So there's a New Zealand pie shop in my neighborhood called Dub Pies. I get free coffee there because I mention them in podcasts and things like that.

[LAUGHING]

Hari Kondabolu: But what I found out like, you know, and this is true with all bakeries or any place, if you go at a certain time of day when they're about to get rid of them, you know, they either hand them out to people or throw them out. So there was a stretch post a bad breakup where I was going there on the regular. So I knew which baristas were working when and I knew, like, when to go to get, like, a couple of free scones and a few donuts and a few stomachaches later, and again, the realization that when you're in your early to mid-30s, that weight does not go away. That break up weight is permanent. Well, it does go away, but it requires you to eat healthy and exercise. But like ...

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] So what you're saying is it doesn't go away. 

Hari Kondabolu: Right, exactly. It's not like before where I'm like, it'll just somehow go away and I don't know why it will, it just will. And then it's like, wait a second, I can't eat dessert? Like lunch dessert isn't a real concept?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] So do you find that you eat more decadently when things aren't going well in your romantic life? 

Hari Kondabolu: Oh, decadent is a nice way of putting it. Yeah, I think ... I think a lot of people are like that. I've heard people who are — after a really bad heartbreak, they don't eat. They have the other issue and they lose a lot of weight. But for me, I end up being like a binge eater. Like, I immediately — it feels good to like, ahhh, sugar. I'm in control of this. Look at me.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: I mean, it's a good thing ... I mean, look, if it's alcohol or drugs, I'd be dead right now. So luckily, it's sugar.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: I mean, that's something that will kill me in the long run. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: You recently tweeted, "I just had papaya thinking it was mango, and now I'm devastated." 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: You know, man, I don't think I'd ever eaten papaya before.

[LAUGHING]

Hari Kondabolu: I don't know. Maybe I assumed I had and I had. And I was in Hawaii and somebody had this like, what I thought were like mangoes they've gotten from the yard and they're like, "Do you want some of this number?" and I'm like, "Yeah, I want some of this!" So I thought it was a mango and he opened it up and I'm like, "This is no mango," and I felt bad because he opened up this fruit and gave me half. So I can't not try to eat it. So I ate some of it and ... and then I  — when the person walked out of the room, I left.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: And I left the papaya there because I'm not going to eat that, man. It's like a ... It's a fake ass mango. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] But why were you devastated? 

Hari Kondabolu: Because mangoes are like, you know, they're ambrosia, the nectar of the gods. Like, why would I ... Papaya? What is that? 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Look, you'll get no argument from me. Clearly, mangoes run circles around papayas. But I wonder if part of your disappointment was disappointment with yourself, Hari? 

Hari Kondabolu: Well, how do you ...

Dan Pashman: Well, I mean, as I understand it, the mango, especially revered in India ...

Hari Kondabolu: Oh, yeah.

Dan Pashman: I have heard tell of the mangoes there ...

Hari Kondabolu: Throughout South Asia, yes.

Dan Pashman: Absolutely extraordinary. And so for you to not be able to recognize a mango …

Hari Kondabolu: Mangoes don't look all the same, each ... Like depending on the country they have — they look different. They have different textures ...  

Dan Pashman: I don't know, they all look the same to me.

Hari Kondabolu: Oh, we're ... We're getting into the racial analysis now, are we?

[LAUGHING]

Hari Kondabolu: I guess from now on, I might say that like, you know, the difference between mangoes and papayas .. You have apples and oranges. Nobody will know what I'm talking about though. But God, that was so upsetting. It was so hard on the inside. It wasn't soft and juicy. It was really unbearable and it made me very upset. And I tweeted something and there was a lot of other people who had similar stories. And it was really nice to know that I could share something personal and have other people resonate with it and — because they've been through the same kind of tragic circumstances. 

Dan Pashman: Right. What about the foods you ate growing up?

Hari Kondabolu: Hmm.

Dan Pashman: I mean, I was interested in reading up to note that you didn't want to bring Indian food to school. You brought ... You went to Burger King all the time. You guys had beef. 

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: How did that come to come to be? 

Hari Kondabolu: Well, it was interesting. Like, I remember because, you know, we were raised Hindu, but I didn't know beef was against the rules til I met other Hindu kids in, like, the fourth or fifth grade — like, "What are you doing?", and I'm like, "I'm eating this hamburger for don't you know, that's against the whole thing?". And I'm like, "I was not told of this growing up." I had no idea. I didn't know beef came from a cow. None of it is. Just this is good. My mom was a big fan of us, like ... She wanted us to be American. And she didn't, like, in terms of being raised religious or whatever, a Hindu, it was more like, get the moral lessons out of it. I know enough people that don't eat beef that are awful human beings. She probably — most people are horrible human beings, too. I don't think beef is a key factor in that.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: But that I mean — which is the point. Like, you know, whether or not you eat beef is irrelevant. Like if you're not eating beef and you're terrible, I'd rather you get the bigger moral lessons and do what you want. And also, I think she wanted us to fit in. And I think for her, fitting in meant eating terrible American fast food. [LAUGHS] So we went to Burger King at a very young age and we ate a lot of fast food growing up. And yeah, I mean, my mom — it was really — and I think still, is kind of caught in this place that I think a lot of immigrants are caught between, especially when you're a parent, you want your kids to know what their culture, right, as defined by how they grew up. And at the same time, you want your kid to fit and you want your kid to be part of this country, the country that they're part of. And that's what my mom was kind of stuck in the middle of. So, you know, she made South Indian food every night, but me and my brother didn't want to eat that, so we had our own meals. We'd have macaroni or spaghetti or whatever else, even though, like my friends, you know, as I got older, high school and college in particular, like, "Why are you not eating this amazing food that your mother is making?" And to me, it was like, "What do you mean it's Indian food? Don't you guys want macaroni? It's Kraft."

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: It's like, you don't even know that you have something special in front of you because it's, like, beaten into not to be weird, don't be different that you just .. you don't — I didn't want to partake. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Because I wonder ... This was something I was thinking about in getting ready for us to chat, was that it struck me that, on one hand, it sounds like in some ways you had ... You are ... Certainly in the food realm, you're fairly assimilated. 

Hari Kondabolu: Right. 

Dan Pashman: It's interesting to me then that identity would become such a big part of your work.

Hari Kondabolu: Huh?

Dan Pashman: Maybe it's my ignorance, but like, I would have assumed ... I would have expected that a person who would be inspired or motivated to follow such a career path would be someone who had grown up more in a traditional Indian environment and then had felt more of a tension when going, "out into the wider world".

Hari Kondabolu: I mean, I grew up in New York and in New York, there is — it really is integration as opposed to assimilation. I think assimilation is when I become you and I have to become you. Integration is this is these are my pieces, these are your pieces, and what works for both of us. And I think that's New York. And I don't say that in a very, like romantic way. I think that's just the truth. So when I would go to other places, whether — you know, I went to college in Maine and then I, you know, as a touring comedian, you start to realize that, okay, like everyone else doesn't see that. They don't see me as having a unique story that fits neatly into the fabric of this country. They see me as the other. And so, you know, just because I like to eat, you know, pizza and hamburgers doesn't mean that I've given up all dignity ... you know, and a sense of self and a sense of like what I believe and who my parents are. And, you know, I see those dynamics and tensions.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, my conversation with Hari Kondabolu continues. Why does he find it offensive when white people he's just met ask him to recommend a good Indian restaurant? We'll discuss and we'll get into this Simpsons controversy when we play a game called Is This Food Racist: Apu Edition. Stick around. 

MUSIC

+++ BREAK +++

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat. I'm Dan Pashman. And just a couple weeks ago, I got back from my tour of Italy with Culinary Backstreets. And man, it was even more incredible than I expected. We ate spaghetti all'assassina, actually at two different restaurants, back to back, so we can really taste test the difference. We went to Lecce all the way down in the tippy tip southern eastern furthest most point of Italy. Not a lot of tours take you there, but we did and we had so much fun. In fact, it was such a huge success that we're doing it again in 2025. The folks at Culinary Backstreets and I are teaming up to do another tour, retracing the steps that I went to for my research trip for Anything's Pastable. You'll eat spaghetti all'assassina. You'll hang out with Silvestro Silvestori and cook together. In Lecce, you'll eat in Rome with Katie Parla. And hey, this is a good gift. Okay? Why don't you go ahead and buy it right now? Surprise that special someone this Christmas or Hanukkah. Space is limited. If you want to come on the tour in November 2025, head over to sporkful.com/events for the link. Again that's sporkful.com/events. Hope to see you there. Now back to this week's Reheat.

Dan Pashman: Now back to my conversation with comedian Hari Kondabolu. And quick warning, there's a tiny bit of profanity about halfway through this segment in our Apu game. Speaking of which, Hari has gotten a lot of attention recently for his documentary, The Problem with Apu on truTV. It takes issue with The Simpsons character, Apu. The character has been voiced for decades by a white actor, Hank Azaria, using a pretty stereotypical accent that essentially mocks South Asian immigrants. In the film, Hari talks about how much he loves The Simpsons, how influential it's been to him as a comic. He also talks about what it was like to grow up in America when Apu was the best-known South Asian character on TV.

CLIP (PERSON 1): The Simpsons stereotypes .. all racist. The problem is we didn't have any other representation. Cabby. Cabby. Cabby. Deli. Deli ... [LAUGHING] Doctor. 

CLIP (PERSON 2): You know that a white guy does the voice?

CLIP (PERSON 3): A white guy doing an impression of a white guy making fun of my father. 

CLIP (PERSON 4): How do you feel about that? 

CLIP (HARI): Oh, I'm making a movie about how much I dislike it.

CLIP (PERSON 5): Right away, they were like, "Can you do an Indian voice and how offensive can you make it?" I would immediately begin to talk this way ... and I think it's not tremendously accurate. It's a little stereotyped and they're like, " No, that's all right." They want the accent to sound like this and they want your tongue to be really pulled back. 

CLIP (PERSON 6): So pranking was going into a room and having to do that exact thing in front of people like a monkey. 

CLIP (PERSON 7): There are accents that by their nature to white Americans sound funny. Period. 

CLIP (PERSON 8): It's funny because it's racist. 

Dan Pashman: Just a few weeks ago, The Simpsons responded. They had a scene in an episode where Marge was trying to take an old children's book and make it inoffensive for 2018. She talked with Lisa about it.

CLIP (MARGE SIMPSON): Well, what am I supposed to do? 

CLIP (LISA SIMPSON): It's hard to say. Something that started decades ago and was applauded and inoffensive is now politically incorrect. What can you do?

CLIP (MARGE SIMPSON): Some things will be dealt with at a later date.

CLIP (LISA SIMPSON): If at all. 

Dan Pashman: At that moment, Lisa looks to her nightstand where there's a photo of Apu. 

[AUDIENCE APPLAUSE]

Hari Kondabolu: One to have Lisa say that is stunning because Lisa would have taken my side, there is no doubt. And Homer takes the other side of it, like Lisa doesn't do that. Lisa's always on the side of, like, for so many people. 

Dan Pashman: She's, like, super social justice warrior.

Hari Kondabolu: Oh my god. She was the original, right?

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: She's O.G. social justice warrior in America. That's the one everyone remembers — she's the annoying one who always says the thing that they read compared to the other people who are just basing it on, like, blind assumptions and stereotypes.

Dan Pashman: Right, right.

Hari Kondabolu: Like, she is totally one of us, who's critical and is questioning things. 

Dan Pashman: I always remember that Lisa subscribed to Junior Skeptic Magazine. [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: Right!

Hari Kondabolu: It's like, why on earth [Dan Pashman: Right, right.] would you look into the camera and say, like, what can we do? 

Dan Pashman: So what did you think of their response? How did you feel about it?

Hari Kondabolu: I thought ... It, to me, you know, I think it shows the nature of white fragility. Like, there's a bunch of white people in a room, mostly older white men, and they don't like someone questioning The Simpsons for the first time in 28 years. Instead of ignoring it or having a nuanced portrayal, they basically said, we heard you. We don't care. Go to hell. That's lazy writing. As someone who's influenced by that show ... [AUDIENCE APPLAUDS] that's lazy writing. As someone who — that is not a Simpsons response. If the Simpsons actually is, like, we're on the side of everything's politically incorrect, they wouldn't be The Simpsons. I learned to criticize popular culture by watching The Simpsons. Criticizing The Simpsons is the ultimate Simpsons move.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: So, you know ...

Dan Pashman: So and the thing that always bothered me, I mean, even me, in addition to everything that you point out in the film, is that on top of all that, the Apu joke is just a hacky joke.

Hari Kondabolu: It's so hacky. Oh my god.

Dan Pashman: It's just so hacky to just be like, we're going to give this — the Indian comedian store owner, the classic trope Indian convenience store accent ... 

Hari Kondabolu: Which they acknowledge is hacky in the movie. If you saw it, like there's a part where Mike Reese, who's one of the original Simpsons writers, who was there when that character was created — it was originally supposed to be called "Clerk". He wasn't supposed to be Indian, he was just called "clerk". Hank Azaria, for whatever reason, did an Indian accent. It got laughs in the room, but in the notes it said, "Do not use an Indian accent. That's a comedy cliché." So they were well aware it was hacky.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: Like it's people are saying that like, you have an issue with them now. They had an issue with it then, like it's hacky. It's not interesting. It's ... And also, Hank Azaria acknowledged it's not even a good impression and it's too late for him to change that because that's the hacky impression he used back then. So I don't know. At the end of the day, you're allowed to criticize art. It's important. It's part of what you do when you make art. You get criticized. You criticize art. And I also ... I'm hoping I don't need to talk about The Simpsons ever again. 

Dan Pashman: All right.

[APPLAUSE]

Audience Member: I'm glad you did.

Dan Pashman: Does that mean we should skip this game we were going to play? [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: Well ... No. Let's ... Let's play the game. Let's play the game.

Dan Pashman: All right. So I will do my best to ensure that no one ever asks you to talk about it again. But first, now we're going to play Is This Food Racist: Apu Edition?

Hari Kondabolu: Right.

Dan Pashman: Okay. You ready? 

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: In The Simpsons episode, "Homer and Apu", Homer gets sick when he eats tainted meat that Apu sold him. Apu had crossed out the expiration date on the package, so he could still sell it. Is that racist? 

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah, it's saying that it —

Audience Member 2: No, it's not racist.

Hari Kondabolu: It's not racist?

Audience Member 2:  No!

Dan Pashman: She says ...  

Hari Kondabolu: Do you usually have the audience to yell at your guests and tell them what is or is not racist? 

Dan Pashman: No ... No ....

Hari Kondabolu: Okay.

Dan Pashman: I was actually only asking Hari. But it's interesting to me that a white person audience thinks it's not racist because this is the one of my list that seemed the most obviously racist. 

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah. You're basically saying that Indian shopkeep — and many that's already the stereotype, there's a lot of Indian-like shopkeepers — are devious. Will do whatever it takes to make an extra buck. Right? And that's part of the thing.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: You know, because there's no other Brown characters on the show really. And later there was Manjula who doesn't have much of a voice and eight kids because, you know, India, a million ...

Dan Pashman: Right. And basically, it paints him as being this shady character, who will ..  

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah, which is how people feel about, like, the immigrant shopkeeper.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: They're cheating. They're hiding something. They're in it for money. They don't speak English. They do whatever they have to do. 

Dan Pashman: Next one. The Kwik-E-Mart is known for selling milk for $12 "surprisingly expensive penny candy" and chocolates on Valentine's Day for $100. Is that racist? 

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah, it's the same thing. It's like the idea of gouging, right? Like this is also an issue that often comes up with, like, Korean shop owners and stuff. Like how come you charge so much? You're charging this ridiculous amount of money. You're trying to rip us off. And it's racialized in that way as opposed to like, I don't know, maybe they're shitty business people because they're shitty business people? Maybe the rent is really high? Like, I don't really know the things, but none of those things get factored in. 

Dan Pashman: All right. Last one. In The Simpsons episode, "Lisa the Vegetarian" Apu reveals that in keeping with his vegetarianism, the hot dogs at the Kwik-E-Mart are actually tofu dogs and nobody has ever noticed. Is that racist? 

Hari Kondabolu: No, he's a clever vegetarian. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: But that's ... Isn't that its own kind of deception?

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah, but it's a different kind of deception. It's finding some way to be consistent and still have to survive versus like, I'm going to rip these people off just to rip them off. It's not to say it's not deception, but it's certainly not the same as I'm being devious and I'm going to, like, even potentially make you sick to make an extra buck.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Well, I hope the people who haven't seen the documentary will check it out. It is great. 

Hari Kondabolu: I think so. And so do, like —  according to Rotten Tomatoes, 90% of the reviews. 

Dan Pashman: Very good. 

[AUDIENCE APPLAUDS]

Hari Kondabolu: As a result, of course, of white liberal guilt, and not because I earned it.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: That's the only reason. 

Dan Pashman: Here's another one that I was very curious to chat with you about this. You know, when I talk, especially when we get in these conversations of food and culture and identity and with people of color, there's a couple of frustrations that I have heard expressed from multiple guests we've had on The Sporkful. One is the whole issue of like, when people meet you and say, "Where are you from?".

Hari Kondabolu: Hm.

Dan Pashman: And then the other one is when people relatively quickly in getting to meet you want to talk about Indian food.

Hari Kondabolu: [LAUGHS] Yea, well ..

Dan Pashman: The "Where are you from?" one, I can very easily wrap my brain around why that's offensive. Because it suggests, like, that you must ... That you're not ... You're somehow not American or less American. And I can understand if someone literally walks up to you and says, "Hey, nice to meet you. I love chicken tikka masala, too ... "

Hari Kondabolu: Hmm.

Dan Pashman: That's .. That's a little weird and reductive. But I do ... I will be ... If I'm being honest, I will say that sometimes when I meet a person of color, especially because I'm passionate about food, that is an area where I look for common ground. It's not the very first thing out of my mouth ...

Hari Kondabolu: That's key. 

Dan Pashman: But it's also ... It's also not like ... It's also not necessarily ... I will admit that sometimes I direct the conversation there quickly because it's something that I know that I feel comfortable talking about and think that it's an area of common ground. So I don't necessarily exactly wait for it to come up organically. 

Hari Kondabolu: What would you talk to me about? Like if you were in that situation and you want to bring it out, what would you bring up? Give me, like ,an example. 

Dan Pashman: Well, let's say we were chatting a little bit. Oh, where did you grow up? Oh, you grew up in Queens?

Hari Kondabolu: I grew up in Queens, New York. 

Dan Pashman: Oh, man. There's so much great food in Queens. 

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah. Queens has a great range of food. 

Dan Pashman: I hear ... I'd love to get Indian food in Queens. You know, a good place where I can get some Indian food?

Hari Kondabolu: Now, at this point ...  a joke is forming in my head for a future show.

Dan Pashman: Oh, good, good.

Hari Kondabolu: As this is happening, I'm breaking down all the steps thinking of the possible punchlines.

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: Because if I was in that situation, let's say I liked food. And one, Dan Pashman. I have to figure out what kind of white is that? [AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Right.

Hari Kondabolu: Okay. What kind of white is that? And is he a white that's been here a long time or is he a white that just got here? What's ... What are his fractions? A third from Ireland? A fourth from here? A sixth from there? Whatever. I got to go through all that. I have to, like, break down all that stuff. And at the same time, I have no interest in doing it.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: And ... But like, so I have to do all that to get somewhere. For you, it's like a color, assumption. Let's move. I'm hungry. So it's a ... Now, the thing is ... Well, first of all, most Indian food when people talk about is North Indian food. Right? And we're South Indian. Nobody knows what that means. It's only like over a billion people in a place. But whatever. And also, it's strange, like, what are you getting? American food? Oh, so you're getting grits? No, you're getting New England clam chowder? No. It's like, what? Those are completely different. But it's all ... It's not all the same, right? Regionally, it makes no sense whatsoever. So to me, it's like my favorite type of "Indian food" is South Indian breakfast food. And so if I start naming South Indian breakfast food places and you did not know what that was, it's like, ,an, I don't know what the hell this guy's talking about. I just want to know where is the best chicken tikka masala?

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: Where is the best -neer or something else that has minimal flavor and minimal spice?

[LAUGHS]

Hari Kondabolu: Like at what point ... Do you know what I mean? The number of assumptions that go into it are kind of like, woah, that's a lot of assumptions. Like I know more about food in coastal Maine than I probably do about Indian food cause I went to college in Maine and I wish I didn't know as much about food in coastal Maine, but like ..

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] But can you unders .... That makes sense.

Hari Kondabolu: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And I can understand why there's a reductive element to that. A white person who you meet in an interaction like, yes, it may be clumsy. And yes, in a perfect world, they wouldn't necessarily jump to conclusions. But at the end of the day, their intention is still to find common ground with you, to try to demonstrate to you that they have some basic respect and appreciation and knowledge of your culture and that they want to connect with you on that basis. And it seems to me like that's imperfect, but it's still a positive intent. 

Hari Kondabolu: I get the positive intent, but it immediately has to other me. You immediately have to put me as different from you in certain fundamental ways before you know for sure. I'll get into any conversation with anybody. But like, there's so many things we have in common that we should get through first without the assumptions. Like, you know, I've been to parties where the first thing I get is, "Where are you from?", as opposed to, "What is your name? Who do you know at this party? Where did you grow up?" Often, especially in certain, like, levels of class and stuff, "Where did you go to college?" There's so many things there that we can break down. It just means, Hello, I'm nice. I'm not going to hurt you. Let's talk. What do we have in common? And I will say, as a person of color, and this is somebody who tours the country, I think, well, they hurt me. It's a realistic thing. So I'd like — that's my first like, "Are we friends?" In that situation, the food question actually is like ... They're just using me for information. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Hari Kondabolu, whose documentary The Problem with Apu is on the truTV website and app and all the streaming places. Before you make your mind up on the issue, watch it. And a couple of updates on the controversy. Just hours after we taped this show, Hank Azaria, who voices Apu, said he watched Hari's film and it made a real impression on him. And he said he'd be willing to step aside and have someone else do the voice. In response, Hari tweeted, "Thank you, Hank Azaria. I appreciate what you said and how you said it." But a few days after that, Simpsons creator Matt Groening basically gave Hari the finger when he said, "People love to pretend they're offended." So it continues.

Dan Pashman: Some more promotional info. Hari and his brother Ashok host the hilarious podcast, The Kondabolu Brothers. It's available wherever you get this podcast. It is so, so good. And finally, Hari's new standup special Warn Your Relatives debuts on Netflix May 8th. Check it out.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: One quick update. In early 2020, Hank Azaria announced that he decided he'd no longer voice Apu. As of this recording, no one has been cast to replace Azaria. And in fact, Apu hasn't uttered a single word on The Simpsons in years. But in 2023, Hank and Hari did have their first public discussion about Apu and a whole lot more when they appeared together on the NPR podcast Code Switch. If you want to check it out, that episode is called "The Fallout of a Call Out"

Dan Pashman: And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on a SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to Sirius xm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

Dan Pashman: Thank you to our presenting sponsor, American Express. Amex Gold makes your dining experiences more rewarding so you can discover more, connect more and experience more dining moments. Enjoy every meal with the benefits that come with the American Express Gold Card. For terms and to learn more, visit Americanexpress.com/withAmex.