Nikita Richardson: People who bring ice are the foundation of celebrations, all right?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: It seems like such a small job, but it is the job that keeps the party going, because you know what people in America love? Cold drinks.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: We're obsessed with it. Americans love ice more than, like, any other country in the world. This is a fact.

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

Joe Yonan: And the worst thing is when you assign the ice to somebody who's never on time.

Nikita Richardson: Exactly!

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people, and welcome to our Salad Spinner Year in Review edition! Get ready for a rapid-fire roundtable discussion of the biggest, strangest, and most surprising food stories from this past year.

Dan Pashman: 2024, this was the year when Japanese sake was added to UNESCO's list of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity, and NFL players consumed an estimated 80,000 Uncrustables. A treat, that if you ask me, should also be on that UNESCO list. In politics, Donald Trump had a photo op slinging french fries at McDonald's, and Rudy Giuliani announced he'd start hocking his own brand of coffee.

Dan Pashman: Then on social media, we saw the rise of dirty soda, the TikTok cucumber salad, and much more. Of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg wedge. There’s a lot more that happened, we've got a lot to cover. On today’s Salad Spinner, we’ll talk about some of the biggest food trends of 2024 — the ones we want to see more of, and the ones we wish would go away. Then later, some of the best things we ate this year.

Dan Pashman: Now, I can't cover all these big topics on my own. Joining me in the spinner today to help our two very special guests. First up in Washington, D.C., we have Joe Yonan. He's the Food and Dining editor at The Washington Post and also just released his latest cookbook, Mastering the Art of Plant-Based Cooking. Hello Joe!

Joe Yonan: Thank you, so glad to be here. This is going to be fun!

Dan Pashman: And here in New York with me in the studio, returning to the show, we have Nikita Richardson, an editor at The New York Times Food Section, who also created the Where To Eat newsletter at The Times. Hey, Nikita! 

Nikita Richardson: Hello! Happy to be here. 

Dan Pashman: It’s great to see both of you. Now, before we get to the Salad Spinner part of the show, let's just spend a little time and catch up. All right? Nikita, you're gonna start us off on the right foot, because you brought us some homemade cookies. Joe, you're in D.C., so I'm sorry, you're gonna have to watch us eat them over Zoom. Wish we could share it with you. 

Joe Yonan: This is unfair.

Nikita Richardson: I've had a lot of them already today, so I'm just gonna give it to you, but ...

Dan Pashman: All right. [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: They are miso walnut cookies that are made in kind of a way that I think people wouldn't expect a cookie to start out, which is with mirin and miso and sugar. And they come from the cookbook, Sift by Nicola Lamb. 

Dan Pashman: That is delightful.

Joe Yonan: I can't believe you're eating cookies.

Nikita Richardson: Yes, I know. I gave them to my barista. I gave them to my friend Clancy, who I ran into at the coffee shop and everyone loved them.

Dan Pashman: I feel like cookies and desserts in general have been getting dangerously close to being too salty.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah. They literally start out like one of my favorite New York Times recipes, which is — this is not a plug. [LAUGHS] It's like Martha Schumann's miso glazed fish, starts out the exact same way [Joe Yonan: Oh yeah.] with sugar, mirin, and white miso. And then, you just pour it over the fish, but then this one you put in way more sugar.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: And so ... And then it goes into the cookie and I was like, "Wow, this is a genius cookie."

Dan Pashman: Well, these are delicious.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Thank you for bringing them in, Nikita.

Nikita Richardson: You're welcome.

Dan Pashman: You're gonna get invited back now. Since the last time we hung out, You created and launched the Where To Eat newsletter at The New York Times, which I love. I read it every week and I don't read many newsletters ...

Nikita Richardson: Wow.

Dan Pashman: But I love the kind of quirky, like it's not your run of the mill restaurant recommendations. There's often sort of very specific themes, like if you're going to be in this neighborhood, here's where to eat. If you're looking for the best French fries, here's where to eat.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah, I mean, it's like a mixture. I think, like, it's on us to kind of find the spot, the trend that's out there. But overall the point of the newsletter has been to give people who are not reading, like, aren't keeping up with all the hot restaurants and all that stuff, but want to know more than the average person. And so if you read this, once a week you probably know more about dining in New York City than, like, your friends who don't really read anything at all. And also hopefully find some good recommendations along the way. I think that what people want is they're not seeking perfection in restaurants, they're seeking, like, really good, reliable places.

Dan Pashman: Well, it's a great newsletter. Everyone should check it out. Let me turn to Joe, because Joe, you already had a big success with your book, Cool Beans, [Joe Yonan: Yeah.] which was all beans. And it was such a success that for your second cookbook, your publisher was like, can you make a book that's much bigger and more vast, [Joe Yonan: Right.] and really, like, a magnum opus of vegetarian cooking.

Joe Yonan: Right.

Dan Pashman: So, tell us about Mastering the Art of Plant-Based Cooking.

Joe Yonan: Well, yeah, it started because I got tired of anytime you hear people talking about plant-based cooking, it always ends up being about the argument about who's better. Is it better to be vegetarian or better to be vegan or is it better to eat everything or flexitarian? And I just started getting tired of not hearing more about how to cook the actual food.

Nikita Richardson: Hmm.

Joe Yonan: And it just struck me that there's been such a history of this kind of cooking and it's come so far that it's now a cuisine unto itself. And I wanted to treat it that way. So to show people that there are specific techniques, there are tricks, there are strategies, and anybody can be interested in it, whether you label yourself as vegan or vegetarian or not.

Dan Pashman: I mean, it's a phenomenal book [Joe Yonan: Why, thank you.] and what I love about it, I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian, but I like vegetables.

Joe Yonan: Right.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

 Dan Pashman: And sometimes I'm tired of the same old vegetable recipes that I have. I want to learn — like, you know, roasting carrots, like there's a whole art form to roasting carrots and how long you're going to roast them for, where you're going to put them on. They go through all different kinds of incredible evolutions [Nikita Richardson: Yeah.] as they sit in the oven. And I feel like [Joe Yonan: Yes.] I needed a book like yours to be able to understand things like that.

Nikita Richardson: I need it too, so I don't buy vegetables and let them rot in my fridge.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Joe Yonan: Right. Right.

Nikita Richardson: My biggest problem.

Dan Pashman: That being said, Joe, you got a little upset on Instagram last night as we record this. You seem like a pretty, pretty even keel, mild mannered kind of guy, [Joe Yonan: Yeah. Mm-hmm.] but you were pretty fired up on Instagram last night.

Joe Yonan: I'm good until you really cross me, Dan.

[LAUGHING]

Joe Yonan: So ... [LAUGHS] No, you know, all cookbook authors, all authors, you know, we're at the mercy of reviews, of online reviews. I got a one-star review from a guy who said that he was so upset because I use oil in the book. And it's because there's a subset of plant-based eaters who follow what they call whole foods plant-based cooking, that it's so whole foods oriented that oil is not acceptable, because oil is not a whole food. So they left this review, one star review saying, you know, I returned the book, this book — this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] ... One of the things ... I have a cousin who cooks this way. One of the things that they do is they "saute" with water ...

Nikita Richardson: Ohh ... Woof.

[LAUGHING]

Joe Yonan: I would say that that's steaming, right?

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Right, yeah!

Nikita Richardson: I'm sorry, but water's not capable of doing that.

Joe Yonan: You know, her daughter and her husband, they're vegan and they cook this way at home and I've had them over for dinner. And I said to her, "You know, Laura, I'm not gonna — I'm going to use oil for the food that I'm going to cook for you. I hope that's okay." And she's like, "No, no, it's fine. We'll flex." And her husband and daughter are always like, "Why is your food so much more delicious than the food that we get from home?" And I'm like, "I think I have an idea. I think I have an idea"

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Today in the salad spinner, we're going to cover a mix of stories from substantive to silly that caught our attention this year. Both of you buckled in? Let's crank up the salad spinner.

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: Earlier this year, New York Times Restaurant Critic Pete Wells stepped down from his role after 12 years reviewing restaurants for The Times. In his farewell column, he talked about technology in restaurants. He wrote, "In my first two years on the job, I thought of restaurants as one of the few places left where our experiences were completely human. No machine could drink Rosé for us or chew lamb chops or flirt, fight, and make up. And at every critical point in the meal, there were people there to guide us. From the moment we walked in, we talked with hosts, bartenders, captains, runners, and bussers. Being served in a restaurant wasn't passive. We had to participate. Many of the little routines of dining that we used to handle by talking to a person now happen on a screen. When we go to Shake Shack, we order and pay for our burger and frozen custard on a screen. In some places, we enter our names on the waiting list for tables on a screen. We scan QR codes, so we can read the menu on a screen. Restaurants are turning into vending machines with chairs," which is a great Pete Wells [Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.] burn to end that graph.

[LAUGHING]

Nikita Richardson: Vending machines .. Ya burnt.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. [LAUGHS] Joe, what's your take on this?

Joe Yonan: Well, I mean, I certainly think that the trend is upsetting. I'm one of those anti QR code people. And it's because I want to separate from technology to a certain extent when I go to a restaurant and when I am with friends, I want to be paying attention to what they're saying. I want to be able to have conversations. I don't want to be in conversation on my phone with social media, while I'm trying to be in conversation with the people that I actually know and love. 

Dan Pashman: I was just in Italy and I was at this 17th century or 16th ... I'm always bad at counting the centuries. I was at this, like, 18th century farmhouse ...

Nikita Richardson: [LAUGHS] What? 16th, 17th, 18th ... Which one was it?

Dan Pashman: The 1700s is the 18th Century, right?

Nikita Richardson: The 1700 hundreds is the 18th century. Yeah, okay. 

Dan Pashman: Yes. Okay. Thank you. So an 18th-century farmhouse that's converted into this, like Masaria, they have these olive groves and whatever. It was incredible. And then you go to the restaurant in this hotel with all this stone and the menu's a QR code ...

Nikita Richardson: Hmm.

Joe Yonan: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Because they're like, you know, we're a farm and so we're very environmentally conscious.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah. And so I understand that but at the same time like you're in this sort of rustic setting in Italy and they're like, pull out your phone and scan your QR code. It takes away a little bit.

Nikita Richardson: I think a lot of these things are born out of necessity. QR codes were born out of let's not touch anything because it's COVID-19. And I think the reason it's stuck around is because menus can change frequently. And rather than having to print a new menu all the time, you can change a PDF online and put it up. It's still annoying, but it was born out of something practical.

Dan Pashman: I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I feel like we're at a moment right now at the end of 2024 where COVID is far enough in the distance that we can kind of appraise its effects. Now you remember when we were all in lockdown, everyone was saying this is going to accelerate all of these impacts that technology has already sent us down. Everyone's going to get food delivered. No one's going to go to restaurants anymore. And there's now studies out that show that that has not proven to be true.

Nikita Richardson: The exact opposite.

Dan Pashman: Right.

[LAUGHING]

Joe Yonan: Right.

Dan Pashman: Americans are going out to eat as much or more than they were before COVID.

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: In some cases, some people may be going to less expensive places because they're concerned about inflation, but rest — people are going ... Are back going out to eat.

Nikita Richardson: April 2022 was a wild time. No one could get a reservation. It was like when things finally started opening up again.

Joe Yonan: Mm-hmm. Right.

Nikita Richardson: And all people in New York wanted to do was go out to eat.

Dan Pashman: So that's been debunked.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: All right. But there are other ways that technology continues to affect us that maybe we hadn't totally anticipated when we were in lockdown. So I want to start with you, Nikita. What's a big way that technology has affected the experience of eating out that has really come into focus for you in the past year?

Nikita Richardson: I think this is kind of maybe a little bit, I don't know, around the way, but like technology specifically, TikTok has made it so that nothing stays quiet for long anymore. Like, it's popular from day one, right? Probably the prime example in New York was this place called Eavesdropper, a listening bar in Greenpoint, and they put up a TikTok, I think before they even opened. And from the first day they opened, it went viral in New York TikTok, and from the day they opened, you could not get in.

Dan Pashman: Wait, I'm sorry, did you say it's a listening bar? A listening bar,

Nikita Richardson: A listening bar, like record listening. There's so many of them. This is gonna be a Where To Eat.

Dan Pashman: Is there, like, a schedule posted in advance that like, oh, come at eight o'clock and we're going to play this album?

Nikita Richardson: I mean, I think it's more just like, hey, here's records. You want to jam out and have a cocktail and some small bites?

Dan Pashman: Do you talk, or are you supposed to be quiet?

Nikita Richardson: I think you talk quietly. [LAUGHS] The overall point being that like the path from, you know, opening to discovery has never been shorter than it is right now. The minute one in, like, influencer, TikTok, or whatever gets their hands on it, it's over. It's game over.

Dan Pashman: There's some restaurants that are clearly ... A new restaurant opens and you could tell they have one dish that they're like, this is going to be our [Nikita Richardson: Viral. Yeah.] Instagram TikTok [Joe Yonan: Right, right.] dish because it has some sort of presentation element. There's, there's smoke involved or something done to the table [Joe Yonan: Right.] to crack something open or poured on top, you know? And they're like, this is the thing we're putting on the menu because people will put it on social media.

Joe Yonan: I was just gonna say it's funny that you brought up TikTok because of course, I was going to talk about TikTok too, in a slightly different way. And that is, you know, some of the food reviewers on TikTok who have these huge followings are certainly changing the game. Like Keith Lee, I'm thinking about.

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Joe Yonan: Huge, huge, huge following. But one of the problems is he's eating everything in his car. And so the reality of what a restaurant is actually going to be like is sometimes severely compromised, right? So, there was a case here in D. C. where he said some critical things about a Caribbean place, like about this fried fish dish that he had there, and he didn't eat it in any way close to the way that it's served in the restaurant. I mean, the restaurant isn't a big takeout restaurant. It's a sit down restaurant, and they serve this gorgeous fried whole fried fish. It's a snapper escovitch, and they serve it with all these sauces and toppings. And when you get it at the restaurant, it's this gorgeous thing that you pick pieces off and you're dipping and everything. In his review, he pulled the fish, the plain fried fish out of the bag and he bit into it [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] with nothing on it, nothing, no sauce, no nothing. And then he talked about how it was disappointing that it didn't actually have — that it was a nicely fried piece of fish but that it didn't actually have that much going on. Well, guess what?

Dan Pashman: Ohh. Right, you forgot the sauce.

Joe Yonan: You didn't experience anything.

Dan Pashman: Also ordering any fried food to go ...

Nikita Richardson: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: And putting it into any kind of sealed container where condensation is going to reduce [Nikita Richardson: Yeah, right?!] the fried crispiness and then trying to appraise that piece of food? I mean, that should be a cancelable offense.

Nikita Richardson: No, the condensation.

Joe Yonan: That's right.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, we discuss, and debate, the most annoying food trend of the 2024 was, and Joe and Nikita will reveal their New Year's food resolutions. Plus, you two brought picks for last-minute gift recommendations. We'll have those, stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++BREAK+++

 

Dan Pashman: I am so happy that American Express is the presenting sponsor of today's episode because I love American Express. I have an AmEx Personal Gold card. If you dine out often, I strongly recommend the Amex Gold Card. So when you go to eat, you use your Amex Gold Card. First of all, you break out an AmEx Gold Card, you know, you just — you kind of feel like a V.I.P., but also when you dine out, you get extra points at restaurants and those points add up fast. Before you know it, you're gonna have enough points for a flight somewhere. Cardholders can enroll and earn up to $120 back in statement credits after paying at participating dining partners, up to $10 each month and get up to $120 back annually after you pay with the American Express Gold Card to dine at U.S. Resy restaurants, or make other eligible Resy purchases. Like I said, with my AmEx Gold Card, I just feel like a V.I.P. and I feel like I'm always racking up points. I get 4 times points at restaurants globally on up to $50,000 annually. AmEx Gold rewards your love of dining experiences allowing you to check out new restaurants, connect with your family and friends, and explore exciting flavors all while earning points. That's the powerful backing of American Express. For terms and to learn more, visit AmericanExpress.com/withamex.

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. Memphis! Memphis! I'm coming to see you. We're doing a live Sporkful in Memphis in January. Special guest is Memphis food legend Karen Blockman Carrier. Get your tickets now at sporkful.com/events.

Dan Pashman: In the meantime, listen to some more episodes of The Sporkful. Like last week’s show I talked with Kristina Cho and Bryan Ford, two cookbook authors who have a lot in common. They're both children of immigrants, third culture kids who got into food not through restaurants, but by launching their own blogs. Kristina became obsessed with food at an early age — not just eating food, but building with it, to see how she could create bites that maximize deliciousness.

CLIP (KRISTINA CHO): My mom would prepare us like wonton soup with, like, a bowl of rice and vegetables on the side and then shrimp chips. I would put a little bit of rice in the shrimp chip, then dunk it in the soup so that the shrimp chip, like, softens for like one second and then you take a whole bite and it's like crispy soft and chewy, and like you get the flavor of the soup., I was already like thinking of textures ..

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): Right.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Kristina’s first career was in architecture, before she switched to food and cooking. And Bryan Ford, he followed a similar path. He spent years as an accountant before leaving it behind to become a full time baker. This fall, they've each released their second cookbooks, where they’re getting more personal and more in-depth about the subjects that matter most to them. These are two great conversations. That episode is up now, get it wherever you got this one. 

Dan Pashman: And one last quick important announcement, if you want to give that special eater in your life my cookbook and pasta gift set from Sfoglini, you’ve gotta order soon! This gift set is one box each of all three of my pasta shapes — cascatelli, quattrotini, and vesuvio — plus a copy of my cookbook, Anything’s Pastable. Place your orders now at Sfoglini.com! That's S-F-O-G-L-I-N-I-.com. Of course, you can also buy Anything's Pastable on its own wherever books are sold.

Dan Pashman: All right, back to our Salad Spinner Year in Review edition. I'm joined once again by Joe Yonan, food and dining editor at The Washington Post and Nikita Richardson, an editor at The New York Times Food Section. Hello to both of you.

Nikita Richardson: Hello, hello.

Joe Yonan: Hello.

Dan Pashman: All right, let's get back into the salad spinner. You ready?

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Joe Yonan: Ready.

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: Nikita, we'll start with you. What's been the most annoying food trend of 2024?

Nikita Richardson: It's not maybe specific 2024, but it has been like ... It's been grinding my gears [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] that when you go into a restaurant where you have a reservation, some of them will be like, "Is your full party here?".

Joe Yonan: Ugh.

Nikita Richardson: And you're like, "No, they're going to be here soon ...", "We can't seat you." Seat me! The table is already set aside.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Nikita Richardson: This is not like walking in. I know that you have on your tablet that this booth is going to be my booth. So why can't I sit at it early?

Dan Pashman: What's your thought on this, Joe?

Joe Yonan: Well, I agree. I mean, I think if you've got a reservation for a certain time, then you should be able to sit down. I mean, I know that at restaurants, of course, if people are super late and it's a huge party and all of that, it can be disruptive. But, I don't know. What else are they going to do with that table? Exactly. Do it.

Nikita Richardson: I wonder if it's exceeded in this fear that, like, the guests will suddenly not show up, but no one is making plans for a restaurant without confirming that everyone's going to be there hours and hours and hours before.

Dan Pashman: Well, yes. I ... look, I agree that I find that annoying, but I'll play devil's advocate a little bit, [Nikita Richardson: Hmm.] which is, you know, every seat in a restaurant is valuable.

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: An empty seat is lost business ...

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: In a business that's already tough. If you make a reservation for, let's say, three people? They're gonna give you a table for four so they're already not thrilled ...

Nikita Richardson: Not always, like somebody once told me.

Dan Pashman: Not ... Right, yeah. But like most of the time.

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: If you show up by yourself, what if one of the two people doesn't show and now you're only a party of two?

Nikita Richardson: That's not gonna happen, guys.

Dan Pashman: They ... [LAUGHS]

Joe Yonan: [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: It's not ... I'm sorry. Maybe it's just me. No one has ever not come to dinner with me ever.

[LAUGHING]

Nikita Richardson: Like if it's like ... If, like, if we said there's gonna be three, there are going to be three of us.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Nikita Richardson: It is guaranteed.

Joe Yonan: Right.

Nikita Richardson: It's like when you walk in there, that is when I'm like, "Ooh, who knows if your whole party is going to come?" You just walked in and the rest of your people aren't here? But if someone made a reservation, we have made a promise. We've entered a social contract with you. We're all going to be here and we are all going to be the number of people that you were expecting.

Dan Pashman: Joe, most annoying food trend of 2024?

Joe Yonan: It's the seed oil thing, Dan.

Nikita Richardson: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Oh! Yeah.

Nikita Richardson: Bringing it back around.

[LAUGHING]

Joe Yonan: It's the seed oil thing!

Dan Pashman: All right, talk to me.

Joe Yonan: Earlier I was talking about just oils' oils, and this is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the people who say and think that there's something particularly harmful about "seed oils" and they're all over TikTok and the science is really just not there. If there's really this problem with seed oils, if they're toxic and it's so inflammatory, then how is it that millions of people who live in parts of the world that have eaten sesame oil, for instance, [Nikita Richardson: Hmm, Mm-hmm.] for millennia, how is it that those people are some of the healthiest, longest living people on the planet? But these seed oil people are so — the no seed oil people are so vocal that it filters down to everything. We have a teenage son and I was cooking a couple of months ago and he came in and he was like, "Are you using a seed oil?", and I was like, "Don't talk to me about the seed oil thing!"

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: Teenage boys used to be interested in way different things.

Dan Pashman: I know, right.

Joe Yonan: Right. But he's on TikTok. And I mean, who knows who he saw, like, said something about seed oils that, [Nikita Richardson: Jordan Peterson.] you know, they're whatever, that they cause immune problems or whatever. And it's just, you know, you look into the science of it and the studies, and they're based on all these little tiny studies that are with animals. But you know, all these big studies with humans that have been peer reviewed and everything shows that there is absolutely nothing to this argument.

Dan Pashman: All right, onto the next topic. Let's spin the spinner!

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: Joe, what is a food trend you hope takes off in 2025?

Joe Yonan: Salsa macha. 

Dan Pashman: Ohh.

Nikita Richardson: Mmm.

Dan Pashman: Okay. Go on, elaborate.

Joe Yonan: For the listeners who don't know what it is, it's like — I mean, I hate to reduce it to this, but the easiest way to talk about it is that it's the Mexican chili crisp. You know, it's one of those crunchy, spicy oil condiments and it's in — salsa macha particularly has a lot of seeds in it, which is so great — seeds and — nuts and seeds in it. It's just incredible. And I mean, I love ... I love chili crisp, of course, but I just feel like salsa matcha hasn't gotten its, like, moment that it deserves. I think it's just an incredible condiment. Like chili crisp, once you try it, you want to put it on everything. You want to eat it on everything. It's good on ice cream. It's good on eggs. It's good on potatoes. It's good on everything, everything, everything ... tacos ... Anything, and I just feel like people need to know it.

Dan Pashman: What is the spicing agent?

Nikita Richardson: The spicening agent? Chilis.

Dan Pashman: But what kind?

Joe Yonan: Spicening.

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS]

Joe Yonan: Spicening, Dan. Spicening. Well, it can be different ones. I think I see a lot with Morita chilies, which are — got a little sweetness to them, which is kind of nice. Yeah, it's just ... It's just delicious.

Dan Pashman: Nikita, what's a food trend you hope takes off in 2025?

Nikita Richardson: Here's the thing. Oh, mine was kind of related as well to this. It's not even a trend. I just ... I was going to say, I want things to be spicy. Like, not enough restaurants [Joe Yonan: Yeah.] dare to go into the ... into spicy territory. They want to make everything, not milquetoast, but like, so vastly approachable to everyone that they do it at the cost of flavor. I think that restaurants have become so afraid of difficult flavors, especially popular restaurants have become very ... Like, they're afraid to challenge their diners with, like, food that, like, with things that they might not be familiar with because they don't want that one-star review, right?

Dan Pashman: You know, it hadn't crystallized in my head until you said it just now, Nikita, but I think in this past year I have had an alarming number of meals at restaurants that were just bland.

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Joe Yonan: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: I almost feel like they're using less salt also.

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: So more heavy handed with the spices at restaurants in 2025, says Nikita. For my food trend for next year, I'm going to say salt in beer. Blue Point has a beer that adds salt. Back Home Beer out of Brooklyn, we did a show about them a couple of years back ...

Joe Yonan: Oh yeah, yeah.

Dan Pashman: Persian style lager, they have one with salt in it, you know, micheladas had their moment.

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: I just think that there's more to be done with beer and salt and other flavors being added to beer.

Nikita Richardson: This year I brought a recipe to The Times that came from a bar in Brooklyn called Pine Box Rock Shop, and it's a pickle brine margarita.

Dan Pashman: Ohh.

Joe Yonan: Oh yeah. Yum. Yeah.

Nikita Richardson: It would change your life. Maybe that's what I should have brought. Sorry cookies, [DAN PASHMAN] but maybe I should have been bringing pickle brine margaritas batched because you know what I found out? That is what has been missing from drinks, pickle brine. I love a good margarita but this makes it, like, better than whatever margarita you imagine.

Joe Yonan: I bet.

Nikita Richardson: It has this like, briny, delicious taste. And I was like, "This is, this is what should be in cocktails." And everyone who tried it was like, "I was skeptical, but you're right. This is amazing."

Dan Pashman: I don't know if we've been spinning the spinner every time, but let's go ahead and spin the spinner. Make sure you keep it spinning.

Joe Yonan: Spin it.

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: Nikita, you're up first this round. What is the best thing you ate this year?

Nikita Richardson: Okay, so I did a big sandwich package this year and about like 57 sandwiches at Define New York City and one of my favorite places — I started going to this place called Salty Lunch Lady's Little Luncheonette. It's out in Ridgewood, Queens and It's this woman who is just very passionate about sandwiches. Every time I am in Queens, I go there to get a sandwich and she makes this incredible ... It's like a dill turkey sandwich. But then I went back another time and she turned it into a dill tuna sandwich. She goes hard on the dill. I love dill. It's like grass that you can eat.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: And I ... And there's so ... And it's so delicious. And it was ... I swear to God, like this is a sandwich that makes you, like, appreciate and love the art of sandwiches.

Dan Pashman: Joe, best thing you ate this year?

Joe Yonan: I think the best thing I ate this year was pita.

Nikita Richardson: Mmm.

Joe Yonan: It was this pita at this restaurant, Mediterranean restaurant in San Francisco called Delita, which is a fairly new place in the Presidio. And it's a gorgeous restaurant and they just have the most amazing pita. They call it "chubby pita" and it comes out and it's, like, puffed, and, it's, like, super soft and it's just incredible. And of course, it comes out with all the, you know, the Muhammara and the hummus and all the dips and pickled vegetables and everything, but, you want to break it open and just shove your entire face into it and wrap it [LAUGHING] and wrap it around your [Nikita Richardson: Best kind of pita.] head and like go to sleep while you're eating it. I don't know. It's ... It's ... It's just unbelievable.

Dan Pashman: That sounds really good. Oh man. Well, mine's going to sound fancy in relation to yours. So I just got back from Italy. Part of my time that I was leading a food tour of people retracing the steps of the research trip that I did for my cookbook. I was in Rome. I went to this restaurant called Armando al Panteone, Armando at the Pantheon, which I talked about. I did pasta research there two years ago. I went back there. I had this spaghetti alla gricia again, [Nikita Richardson: Mmm.] which is amazing again, but then I ordered the carpaccio. It was ... First of all, it was carpaccio with salsa tonnata, tuna sauce, [Joe Yonan: Oh, yeah, yeah.] which if you're not familiar, like, it sounds — it doesn't taste like tuna. The sauce tastes more like [Joe Yonan: Oh, interesting.] a briny dijonnaise.

Nikita Richardson: Oof.

Joe Yonan: Mm.

Nikita Richardson: Mmm.

Joe Yonan: Dijon.

Dan Pashman: And there's the beefiest, most perfectly flavorful carpaccio. And then, sprinkled over the top, they had like, thin slices of like, extra big capers ...

Joe Yonan: Yeah, like the berries, like caper berries.

Dan Pashman: Little ... Yeah, caper berries, yes.

Joe Yonan: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Little bits of lemon.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: And then like flaky salt.

Nikita Richardson: Oof.

Dan Pashman: Like so you'd have the beef and you had the tuna sauce and then you would have one bite of the head, this big, bright citrus lemon pop.

Joe Yonan: Mm.

Dan Pashman: And then you'd have a big briny caper pop, and then you'd have a salty salt flake.

Nikita Richardson: You're in your briny era.

Dan Pashman: I am. And it was absolutely majestic.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: And I'm sad that I can't eat it right now.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: But anyway ...

Joe Yonan: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Beef Carpaccio, Armando Al Pantheon — best thing I ate this year. Last minute gift recommendations. One gift recommendation from each of you, please. Joe?

Joe Yonan: I'm sure you've had that halva and tahini from Seed + Mill in New York — Seed + Mill.

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Joe Yonan: Incredible halva place. You've had the halva, right?

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: I haven't. I haven't. For our listeners who don’t know it, halva is one of my all time favorite desserts. I love all sesame desserts. It's made with tahini. It’s not super sweet. It's got a crumbly, almost fudgy but a little bit sandy kind of a texture. I just — I'm excited about this, Joe. I gotta try this one out. 

Joe Yonan: This is a different level of halva.

Dan Pashman: This is sticking on your pro seed stance that you've staked out here … 

Joe Yonan: Well, there you go! Yeah!

Dan Pashman: Throughout the episode, Joe. [LAUGHS]

Joe Yonan: Seeds, seeds, seeds ...

[OVERTALKING]

Nikita Richardson: We're looking for themes.

[LAUGHING]

Joe Yonan: It's a very sesame heavy episode. So they make this incredible halva. They do it in really fun flavors. If you haven't had it, you've got to try it because it's just — I didn't even realize how much I liked halva until I had theirs. It reminds me of that [Dan Pashman: Oh, it's a bold statement.] that candy Toblerone, which is the almonds and honey. But at Seed + Mill, they do things like, there's a cardamom one. There's a ... There's a sour cherry one that's incredible, but then I just saw that they've got halva covered pecans?

Nikita Richardson: Mm.

Joe Yonan: I mean, come on.

Dan Pashman: Wow.

Joe Yonan: That's got to be incredible. And then I saw that they're — they now started selling entire cakes and it's a big halva cake [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] that serves — yeah! And you cut it into slices. And I just thought, "I want that." I haven't had that yet and I was like, I want somebody to give — maybe this is what I want other people to give me.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

Joe Yonan: Is that okay?

[LAUGHING]

Joe Yonan: Um, I want a halva cake from Seed + Mill, so ...

Dan Pashman: All right. So if anyone needs a last minute gift idea for Joe ...

Joe Yonan: For me, yeah.

Dan Pashman: Please get him the halva from Seed & Mill.

Joe Yonan: Yeah. Yes.

Dan Pashman: All right, Nikita, last minute gift recommendation?

Nikita Richardson: Okay, I had four, but I'll give you one.

[LAUGHING]

Nikita Richardson: So I did a newsletter about, like, afternoon tea. [Joe Yonan: Mmm.] And here in the city, there's a place called Té Company, and they're a Taiwanese tea shop and bakery. And they have — they're very famous for their pineapple linzer cookies, which is like a pineapple curd in between two very thin but crispy linzer cookies and you can buy them by the pack. You can buy them to go. You can ... You can give them to your friends and family and I think they're like a perfect holiday gift, personally.

Joe Yonan: Can I mail order them?

Nikita Richardson: If you want a food based — yes, I think you can! I — don't quote me on that, but I think maybe you can.

Dan Pashman: I just checked, and yes, Té Company does ship nationwide. That's T-É, with an accent on the É. So Joe, you’re in luck! So for me, I didn’t actually bring a gift idea. Instead, I have a hot take on gifting that I want to share, because in the holiday season, a lot of us are invited to other people's houses. And of course, when you're invited to someone's house for any kind of a meal or gathering, you want to bring something, right? You're supposed to bring something. So there's two ways this goes. One is that, you know, you get invited and you say, "What can I bring?"

Nikita Richardson: Hmm.

Dan Pashman: And the host assigns you a dish. In that case, great. Bring the thing that you were assigned. If they say, "No, no, no, don't bring anything," or it's not the kind of thing where you — where it would be appropriate to offer to bring something, but you still want to bring a gift, or if you feel like what you've been assigned is not enough, and you want to bring more, this is my pet peeve. You should be bringing something that you do not expect the host to serve. Because the host has a plan.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

Joe Yonan: That's right.

Dan Pashman: The host has planned out the courses and the order and the thing — and there's some thought, thought and effort has been put into it. They've selected the desserts they're gonna serve or whatever. They've selected the appetizers and the entrees.

Joe Yonan: Right.

Dan Pashman: Don't show up with like ...

Nikita Richardson: Potato salad with raisins in them.

Dan Pashman: Right, right. You know ...

Joe Yonan: Or a halva cake? What if I showed up with a halva cake? I mean, surely they want a halva cake?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Nikita Richardson: I think dessert ... I think dessert is something different. I think bringing a sweet treat is very different. Like something that's a savory entree, like they've planned that out. But I think, like, you can't hurt someone … like bring some cookies.

Joe Yonan: I agree with you though, that it should be a gift for the — it's a gift for the host.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Right, it's not to serve. Because Nikita, let's say, I said, "Nikita, can you please bring an appetizer?"

Nikita Richardson: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: And you thought, "But, you know, Dan's going to such trouble to host this event, this beautiful dinner he's invited me to, and I don't feel like this is enough. And I'm baking some cookies anyway, [Nikita Richardson: Yeah.] so I'm going to bring cookies too. But I told Joe to bring dessert, and I told someone else to bring dessert.

Joe Yonan: Right.

Dan Pashman: Now Joe has put a lot of thought and effort into the dessert he's bringing. And now they're excited to serve their desserts, and now in comes Nikita with cookies no one asked for.

Nikita Richardson: Well the cookies are for you.

Dan Pashman: Well, that's fine then. That's fine. Then you bring them like in a bag and say, "These are not for right now. Put them away. These are a few ... These are my treats that I made for you. Snack on them later."

Joe Yonan: These are for you.

Dan Pashman: That's fine. Or bring a gift for the household.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Or a bottle of olive oil for them to put away.

Joe Yonan: Right.

Dan Pashman: But unless you have been assigned to bring a specific dish, [Joe Yonan: Agreed.] you should not bring something to a party that you expect to have served at the party you're going to. I'm off my high horse.

Joe Yonan: Yes.

Nikita Richardson: Yeah. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Last question. You ready? Here we go. So here on The Sporkful, we have a tradition that for our year end episode, we do New Year's food resolutions, where listeners call in and they tell us what food they resolve to eat more of in the new year and why, and I also grade myself on the year, the past year and reveal mine for the following year. So, I'm not going to reveal mine right now. That will be revealed next week. I want to remind our listeners that they have two more days to get your New Year's food resolutions in. We need them by the end of the day, December 18th. If you want to have any chance of getting included in our year end episode, send us a voice memo to hello@sporkful.com. Tell us your name, where you are, and what food you resolve to eat more of in the New Year and why. But while we have our esteemed guests here to wet our appetites for next week's show — Joe, you first, what food do you resolve to eat more of in the new year and why?

Joe Yonan: Tamales.

Dan Pashman: Oh, that's a good one.

Nikita Richardson: Mmm.

Dan Pashman: And why?

Joe Yonan: Cause they're amazing, and because I've loved them pretty much my entire life, and I seem to have gone ... For some reason, I seem to have gone a while this year, and maybe the last couple years, without eating very many of them. And I think it's partly because there's a lot of really great Mexican food in D.C., but D. C.'s not really a hotbed of tamales. And so I don't know if this is something I need to be working on mail order or just making more of them at home, but I just absolutely love tamales and I just miss them. I miss them. So I want to eat more of them and maybe with salsa matcha, of course, because I already talked about salsa macha.

Dan Pashman: There you go. All right. Nikita, New Year's food resolution?

Nikita Richardson: I would like to eat more food that I made myself. I go out to eat a ton for work, mostly. But also, I live alone, so I'm very — I don't like to make things all the time because I'm like, oh, I don't want to make ... Well, I get tired of leftovers. And I don't want to buy, like I said, vegetables and then let them go rotten in my fridge. But then, it's like you guys are, you're — well, not you. Sorry, Joe, but, you know, Dan is enjoying the spoils of my having to test cookbooks this week, and yesterday I was like, in my kitchen, blasting Christmas music, and baking and cooking, and I was like, I love this. I never do it anymore. I rarely do it. I love cooking for other people. So maybe, like, the goal [Joe Yonan: Yeah.] is to, like, have a few like dinner party things or like small ones where no one can bring anything else.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: That's right.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: My thanks to Nikita Richardson of The New York Times Food Section. You can check out the newsletter that she writes. It's called Where to Eat, along with The New York Times other wonderful newsletters. And then my thanks to Joe Yonan of The Washington Post Food and Dining Section. Check out Joe's latest book, Mastering the Art of Plant Based Cooking. Make sure you go on Amazon and give it a really good review. It's available wherever books are sold. Thank you, Joe and Nikita!

Nikita Richardson: Thank you.

Joe Yonan: Thanks for having me.

Nikita Richardson: Happy Holidays.

Dan Pashman: Next week is our New Year’s Food Resolution episode, and as I said earlier, I want to hear from you. Record a voice memo with your name, location, and then tell me what food you resolve to eat more of in the new year, and why. Send it to me at hello@sporkful.com by the end of the day, Wednesday, December 18th, and you may hear your resolution in our year end episode.

Dan Pashman: Meanwhile, if you’re looking for more Sporkful episodes to listen to, check out last week’s show where I talk to the cookbook authors Kristina Cho and Bryan Ford about changing careers to pursue cooking, and why their second cookbooks were the ones that they felt they were meant to write. 

Dan Pashman: And hey, did you know that you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? Then there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXM.com/sporkful.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Thank you to our presenting sponsor American Express. AmEx Gold makes your dining experiences more rewarding so you can discover more, connect more, and experience more dining moments. Enjoy every meal with the benefits that come with American Express Gold. For terms and to learn more, visit AmericanExpress.com/withamex.