Dan Pashman: Hey, everyone! It's Dan, with another Reheat for you. And I'm so happy that some of you are enjoying listening to these because I really loved revisiting them myself. And for this week, my pal Dan Souza and I are gonna hang out. We're gonna weigh in on your food disputes, including one about the ethics of ice cream samples. You know, for me, one of the best parts of summer is stopping by a local ice cream shop. Whenever I travel or even walk into my own town, there's a pretty good chance if it's hot outside, I'm gonna stop for some ice cream. But I didn't know there was such a thing as ice cream college! Well, Dan and I talk about that and much more about the science of ice cream. Plus, we'll settle that ice cream debate from you, our listeners.

Dan Pashman: And back in 2018 when we first aired this episode, Dan Souza was the Editor in Chief of Cooks Illustrated. But recently, he got promoted! Congrats, Dan! He is now Chief Content Officer of America's Test Kitchen. Well deserved, Dan. You also heard him recently on our book tour episodes, because Dan hosted my Boston show. It's always fun to hang out with him. Anyway, if you have an episode you’d like us to reheat, drop me a line! You can find me at hello@sporkful.com. All right! Enjoy the Reheat!

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And I got a friend riding shotgun here. Today for this episode, my buddy Dan Souza, Editor and Chief of Cook's Illustrated, joins me from Boston. Hey, Dan!

Dan Souza: Hey, Dan!

Dan Pashman: And you and I have a special connection that has heretofore never been publicly divulged. Are you ready to divulge it?

Dan Souza: Yes, and it's not just that we share the first name.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] That's been publicly divulged.

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: It's that a couple years ago, I wrote a book called Eat More Better and it was all about food and eating. And I needed someone who was a food, science, and cooking genius [DAN SOUZA LAUGHS] to read the book and make sure I didn't say anything stupid.

Dan Souza: That's right. 

Dan Pashman: And if you read the credits of the book very carefully, you will notice buried in the long list of people that I thanked was a gentleman named Oliver Toothacker.

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] That's right.

Dan Pashman: Oliver Toothacker was my culinary fact checker. But we can tell them here today, Dan! Who is Oliver Toothacker?

Dan Souza: That's me. That's my nom de plume, if you will.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Souza: And that last name is actually my mother's maiden name — Toothacker — which I've always loved and so when I needed a nom de plume, that's what I went for. 

Dan Pashman: All right, Dan, so in just a few minutes we're gonna take calls from listeners. But first, I want to set up your food science credentials just a little more. At America's Test Kitchen, you edited both the James Beard Award nominated book, Cook Science, and The New York Times bestseller, The Science of Cooking. That sounds impressive. But really clinch it for us, Dan. Tell me about one recent project you've worked on that involved serious, heavy duty food nerdery?

Dan Souza: The most recent thing that comes to mind is Andrea Geary, who's a Senior Editor on Cook's Illustrated, that was working on a granola bar recipe and we wanted it to be chewy. And for something to be chewy, it means that under repeated impact it responds and comes back to its original shape, so it doesn't just deform. We can test that with, you know, tasting things and we do a ton of taste tests, but it's really nice when we get equipment involved in that. So I borrowed this thing called a Texture Analyzer from Brookfield Engineering, and basically …

Dan Pashman: Oh my god, I want that so bad. Wow. 

Dan Souza: Yeah. It's pretty amazing.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Dan Souza: So you take and it pushes a probe that can look like your teeth or a knife and it pushes it into the food, records how much force it takes, and then it does it again in that same spot and it figures out, kind of, deformation. So we can actually quantify how chewy a bar is.

Dan Pashman: That's such an interesting way that I never thought about to define chewiness. It's about the food pushing back after you've bitten into it.

Dan Souza: Exactly.

Dan Pashman: That's the difference between chewy and just mushy.

Dan Souza: Exactly, and so there's a lot — you know, a lot of our test early on we found that, you know, some feel chewy on that first bite when you first bit into it. But then on repeated chewing, it just starts to crumble a part and that ends up being a kind of a softer, squishy bar.

Dan Pashman: And so what, in a nutshell, is the secret to optimal chewiness in a granola bar?

Dan Souza: We found that the water in there is actually the key element. So we can make a granola bar with sugar in it, but we need to add water to it. So that really allows us to get this kind of visco-elastic material going on inside your granola bar, so it comes off as chewy.

Dan Pashman: Well, Dan, I think we have successfully established your food nerd credentials.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Souza: For better or worse.

Dan Pashman: That's right. Now later in the show we're gonna subject you to the lightning round.

Dan Souza: Oh, boy.

Dan Pashman: That's when you're gonna have to answer three food science questions, some from me, some from listeners, and you're gonna have to answer all of them in three minutes or however long it takes.

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] What do I get if I get them right?

Dan Pashman: The satisfaction of doing it.

Dan Souza: That's the best prize.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: All right, Dan. Are you ready to take some calls?

Dan Souza: Yeah, I'm ready to do it, Dan!

Dan Pashman: Now, because we both have the same first name, I think to make it easier for listeners, I'll be Dan. You be Souza.

Dan Souza: Souza? All right!

Dan Pashman: That's your last name.

Dan Souza: That is. And some people do call me that.

Dan Pashman: Okay. So I'm Dan. You're Souza.

Dan Souza: Sounds good.

Dan Pashman: All right, Souza. Let's go to the phones. First up we have Mythili in San Francisco. She and her husband Krishna have an issue they're dealing with. They need our help. Mythili, how are ya?

Mythili: Good! And you, Dan, how are you?

Dan Pashman: Good. You're here with my friend Souza.

Dan Souza: Hi, Mythili!

Mythili: H, Souza!

Dan Pashman: Go ahead. What's your issue? What can we help you with today?

Mythili: Yeah, so my question is: Can you walk into an ice cream shop or store and taste the ice cream but not buy? So walk away without buying it?

Dan Pashman: Is there a specific story that this relates to that? Like, tell me the story of when this first came up in your life?

Mythili: It all started with my husband and I, along with my cousin — were in Palo Alto having lunch and then right after I decided that we should have ice cream for dessert — I have a bit of a sweet tooth, and even though our lunch was pretty big, I feel like I always have room for dessert. And so we were walking along downtown Palo Alto and we see an ice cream shop. So I walk in and, you know, there's not a lot of people there, so I immediately started asking for tastes. And so I tasted, I think, maybe two or three flavors, and then I turned to my husband and my cousin and asked them to taste and they immediately go, "Oh, we're not — I'm not eating. I don't want to taste anything because I don't want it." And I think at that point, I hadn't really loved any of the flavors, so I just leave. So this is where my husband was pretty mortified that I decided to walk out of the shop without buying anything having tasted a bunch of flavors.

Dan Pashman: So if your husband and cousins had all bought ice cream in the shop, would you have also bought something?

Mythili: Yeah, definitely.

Dan Pashman: So Mythili, just so I understand, you took the samples, you didn't buy anything. You did feel a twinge of guilt, but at the end of the day, you really don't think you did anything wrong. And your husband Krishna, really does think you did something wrong. Is that correct?

Mythili: That's correct.

Dan Pashman: Okay. So the question here before us, Souza, is did Mythili do anything wrong?

Dan Souza: That is the ultimate question. I'm really glad I'm on the call for this because I think I can provide a really unique perspective. I actually went to ice cream college a couple of years ago.

Dan Pashman: Oh! [LAUGHS]

Mythili: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: And I thought we had already established your food nerd credentials, Dan. Little did I know ...

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] Yeah, I should have just that.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Dan Souza: So, yeah. It's called the Penn State Ice Cream Short Course and it's been around for, like, 124 years. 

Mythili: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Souza: And it's this deep dive into commercial ice cream that takes place over 10 days in January at the Penn State campus. 

Dan Pashman: Hey, it's Dan jumping in here. I just want to make clear, this is a real thing — this ice cream college. It's a real course. It's taught by food scientists and the students come from mom and pop ice cream shops and big food corporations, like Baskin Robbins, Ben & Jerry's, Häagen-Dazs ... There's even an exam at the end. And Souza said his experience there gives him some special insight into Mythili's question about ice cream samples. 

Dan Souza: Not once did this kind of issue ever bubble up to the surface. It is not weighing on ice cream producers very heavily that people are gonna take samples and not buy something. 

Dan Pashman: So Dan, Mythili is in Palo Alto. It's probably a nice street. 

Dan Souza: Mm-hmm. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: It's probably — I mean, Mythili, how much are you paying — how much in theory would have paid for this small ice cream? 

Mythili: I think this is $5 for a single scoop. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, $5, right. 

Mythili: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I got a lot to say about that, too, in a minute, but ... 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: But Dan, if this ice cream shop is charging $5 for a small ice cream, about how much would you estimate their spending on one 5-gallon container?

Dan Souza: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: That whole 5-gallon container, how much does it cost the ice cream shop?

Dan Souza: Ugh. That's a really hard question to answer. There's a lot of considerations to go into it. And one of them — and this is the most interesting crazy thing that I learned at ice cream college, and it has a big influence on it, is whether or not an ice cream makes its base — like, actually makes the base the way that you make ice cream at home or buys the base. It turns out that almost all artisan scoop shops are buying their base from somewhere else. And the reason behind it is you need — legal, you need to pasteurize it and you need an actual machine — a big machine — in order to pasteurize the mix yourself. It's just prohibitive for a lot of scoop shops. So they're buying base from, like, three huge producers. So it's either — like, it's Hood — there's a couple other ones. It's not expensive stuff at all.

Dan Pashman: So is it fair to say that one sample, from one of those little, tiny, microscopic sample spoons ...

Dan Souza: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Couldn't cost more than a few cents?

Dan Souza: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: If they gave out 100 samples and sold one large ice cream more than they would have, cause they gave out 100 samples, they're probably making money on that exchange. 

Dan Souza: I would think so. And if you think about, like, that small — like, how  many samples scoops would come out of that small — you know, depending on their scoop size, it's a lot, right? 

Mythili: Right. 

Dan Souza: And then they're losing $5 of sales if they sell that many samples. 

Dan Pashman: So Mythili, hearing that information about the cost of the ice cream, does that change how you feel at all? 

Mythili: So I'm a — I've been a business consultant for many years and I think of the money that the store spends on giving out samples is part of their marketing budget. They should absolutely be giving out samples and I feel that just as I would go to the farmers market and try some things, I always have the intent to buy, that's why I'm tasting it. I'm not trying just freeload off the food there, but if I don't like it, I'm not gonna buy. It's just somehow in that store setting, it just makes it harder to walk away. and I mean, that was where we were different — you know, we had different perspectives, Krishna and I, that I felt that it was okay to walk away but then I felt bad that I was not living up to some standard. 

Dan Pashman: What standard?

Mythili: Of being a good citizen [LAUGHS] not buying the ice cream, I guess?

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] Good ice cream citizen. 

Dan Pashman: But it seems like part of what you're feeling in that moment was also that it would look gluttonous, cause no one else in your group wanted — they all said, "We're full," and here you are going for ice cream and you were afraid it would look gluttonous to get ice cream. 

Mythili: Yes, that too. But that, I think, was more of a secondary thing. I already know that I am gluttonous, so it's not such a big deal in my family ... 

[LAUGHING] 

Mythili: It's a well known fact. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, this conversation continues. We’ll talk to Mythili’s husband Krishna to get his take on what makes a good ice cream citizen. And, Dan Souza, we'll subject you to the food science lightning round. Also, I have so many questions about Ice Cream College. Will you stick around?

Dan Souza: I certainly will.

Dan Pashman: And you, too. Yes, I'm talking to you. You stick around, too. 

MUSIC

 

+++BREAK+++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to another Sporkful Reheat, I’m Dan Pashman. Do you ever, like, go to our show page in your podcasting app and you're scrolling back and you're like, "Oh, that seems like a good episode. How did I miss that?" Well, you missed it because you're probably not following our show in your podcasting app. And it's really important that you do, so please, you can do this right now. Go to our show page, in your podcasting app of choice, if it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify, you click "follow", other apps, maybe it's a plus sign or a heart or a favorite or the word "subscribe" — whatever it is in your app, it's really important that you click it, that way you won't miss great episodes. It's super quick and easy. You can do it right now. Thank you so much. Now, back to this week's Reheat. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Now, let's get back to our phone call. We're talking with Mythili in San Francisco. She sampled several flavors at an ice cream shop but didn't buy anything. Her husband Krshna says that's wrong. I'm also joined by my friend, Dan Souza, in Boston. He's Editor in Chief of Cook's Illustrated and a renowned food science nerd. He's going by the name Souza in this episode to avoid confusion. 

Dan Pashman: Hey, Souza. 

Dan Souza: Hey, Dan. 

Dan Pashman: All right, Mythili, I know that your husband Krishna is standing by. Let's hear his perspective. Can you hand the phone to him, please?

Mythili: Yeah, will do that. 

Krishna: Hi, this is Krishna. 

Dan Pashman: Hey, Krishna. How are you?

Krishna: Good. How are you, Dan?

Dan Pashman: You're on here with my friend Souza here. 

Krishna: Hello. 

Dan Souza: Hello!

Dan Pashman: So, Krishna, first question. Can you confirm that Mythili is gluttonous?

Krishna: Uhhh ... Yes. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Okay, we have independent confirmation. She told us the story of what happened in the ice cream shop. In that moment, where she — after she had the samples and started to turn to walk away, why was it important to you that you thought that she should go and buy something? 

Krishna: So the intent of Mythili was to go and eat ice cream there. If you're there to eat ice cream and you tasted the flavors and the reason is not that the flavors are not great but because somebody else is not eating that, then morally, I thought that she should be getting something. 

Dan Souza: Did you consider just giving them, say, a couple of dollars?

Krishna: No, I did not consider that. 

Dan Pashman: Like a dollar in the tip jar?

Dan Souza: Yeah! I mean, you only have, like, three samples, we could say that that's probably not even a dollar's worth based on their small cup size. Do you think that would change the game at all? Do you think that that would be sufficient?

Krishna: If you go into the nuance of it, my personal perspective is, maybe not. So, yes, it solves us from the tipping part of it, because it spends some time to tip it — although, they get paid, they did the service, so you're tipping them, but you're not necessarily giving it back to the store owner. 

Dan Pashman: I think that that is a key distinction, Krishna, and I think that's where the heart of this issue lies, is that there's the issue of a person working in the store, has performed a service for you. And do they deserve some sort of payment for that? And then there's the store owner has lost some of their supply. Do you ever go to supermarkets or big box stores, like on the weekends sometimes, when they have the samples all out, you know, and they have all different food products in the supermarket aisles to try?

Krishna: Yeah, I have a very different perspective of those ... 

Dan Pashman: Why? Why is that different?

Krishna: The samples are actually laid out there, right? So if you actually don't want those, they go into the trash, number one. Number two is when you go out there to a supermarket or a farmers market, you go with the intent of buying some groceries or fruit or vegetables. You end up buying something from one of those stores. So at the end of the day, you are paying for that. 

Dan Souza: I mean, I interested in this supermarket example too, where, yes, you're going into the supermarket and you're buying some other goods, but that product that they're offering you, say, it's Swedish meatballs or something like that, if you're not buying any of that but you're sampling it, how is that actually different?

Dan Pashman: And I would add, sometimes the free samples are not from the store owners. Sometimes they're from the individual company that has made that specific food. So like, especially, in a liquor store, sometimes you'll see, like, they're giving out wine samples and it's a rep from the wine company. 

Dan Souza: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: So it's not like they got you into the store and you're gonna buy other stuff. Whatever stuff you buy doesn't help that man or woman behind that little table, giving out the Swedish meatballs. 

Dan Souza: Good point. I mean, it's almost like a tiny ice cream shop within the supermarket, if you think about it. 

Dan Pashman: Great point, Souza! Great point. Krishna, how do you respond?

Krishna: [LAUGHS] Good point, Souza, but, like, the way I convince myself, and maybe I could be wrong but I feel confident about it, is that, in fact, when I go and taste somethings there, they're trying to get me to try new things, even if it's not a product that I even eat. And over time, maybe convince me to buy some. And there have been instances when I have bought them. And so that's how I convince myself that's the right one. 

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] 

Krishna: And to your second question, which is, like you pointed out, Dan, in liquor stores where there's somebody who comes in and tries to give out samples, I think the samples are gonna go out to somebody anyway because usually they're pouring them out. But I agree that they may never make money on it if I'm just going and drinking. I haven't thought about that nuance, where maybe you're gonna make me think next time at one of these stores ... 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: All right. All right ... 

Krishna: I'll maybe ask them that question. 

Dan Pashman: All right, can you put Mythili back on the line, please?

Krishna: Sure. 

Mythili: Hello. 

Dan Pashman: Hi, Mythili. So we put a few dents in Krishna's argument there. 

Mythili: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: He seemed like he was running scared by the end. 

[LAUGHING] 

Mythili: Good. 

Dan Pashman: All right, Souza, so the question is: Did Mythili do anything wrong by taking free ice cream samples and not buying anything? Where do you stand?

Dan Souza: So where I stand is from the psychology of an ice cream producer. I don't think you did anything wrong. I think you are validating their process of giving out samples. 

Mythili: Thank you. 

Dan Pashman: All right. And Mythili, let me ask you one more question. You said that if the rest of the people in your group had bought ice cream, you would have bought it too. Let me ask you the opposite question. If those samples had been amazing and you had loved the ice cream, even if no one else in your group wanted any, would you have bought it? 

Mythili: Yes. Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. I think that if you go into an ice cream shop and you try three ice creams and the ice cream doesn't taste good, you should not be obligated to buy it. 

Mythili: I agree. 

Dan Pashman: And Mythili, how often do you taste any ice cream and say, this is not good enough for me to keep eating it?

Mythili: Pretty rarely ... 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So I say the fault is with the ice cream makers and I think if Krishna was that upset about it, he should have bought some ice cream. 

Mythili: He should have. 

Dan Pashman: Krishna, put your mouth where your mouth is. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Souza: Well said. 

Dan Pashman: All right. All right, Mythili in San Francisco, thanks so much for your call.

Mythili: Thank you.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So, Dan, I mean, someday we'll do a whole other show about your time at ice cream college. 

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] Sounds good. 

Dan Pashman: But I want to ask you something that's been on my mind now that I know that you have this special expertise. What can you tell about the quality or make up of an ice cream based on how quickly it melts? 

Dan Souza: You can tell a ton about ice cream based on how much it melts. One of the big elements of ice cream that people don't think about is air. In the ice cream world, it's called overrun and it's the amount of air that you whip into the base as you're freezing it. So our super premium ice creams, like Häagen-Dazs, Ben & Jerry's — those sorts of things, they have a very low overrun. So, you know, sometimes just 20% extra air is added into it, whereas some of the bigger mass market brands ... 

Dan Pashman: The ones that come in the giant jug containers ... 

Dan Souza: Exactly, and a lot of those, those can be up 100% overrun, so you're doubling the volume of the base during the churning process. And air, as we know, because, you know, we put it in fiberglass insulation of our house, it's a great insulator. So if you have more air in an ice cream, it's gonna melt more slowly. So that's one element ... 

Dan Pashman: Really? Cause I feel like my wife loves those supermarket brands. She loves, like, the Breyers and all that. 

Dan Souza: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And I'm more Häagen-Dazs, Ben & Jerry's guy. And I feel like the Häagen-Dazs, Ben & Jerry's are very dense and melt very slowly. They take a long time to defrost, whereas the Breyers is soft right out of the freezer. 

Dan Souza: Well, so soft right out of the freezer but that's really because what you're scooping is more air than in the other batch. So it's true that Ben & Jerry's and Häagen-Dazs would be a lot firmer to scoop, but the melt rate, based on air alone, the Breyer's example should melt more slowly. 

Dan Pashman: And, Dan, am I right, that an  ice cream with a lot of overrun, like 100% overrun, which makes it 50% air ... 

Dan Souza: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: If it makes you happy and you like it, then that's fine. But, like, I feel like those ice creams are not as good. 

Dan Souza: Yeah. I mean, I would say that the trend now is extremely low overrun and you get some of those kinds of chewy qualities of ice cream. It's funny that — so all the Ph.D. 's and all the dairy scientists at school, like they make fun of the super premium stuff. Like to them, the right stuff is, like, more middle of the road. They just think, like, the super premium stuff is kind of whack, cause it's — you know, it's the perceived quality but they think of it is nicey as the more middle of the road ice cream. 

Dan Pashman: Well, my wife Janie will be very happy to hear that the dairy scientists says that her ice cream is better. Anyway, let’s take one more call. Next up on the phone, we have Leland in Port Townsend, Washington. Leland, what can we do for you?

Leland: My business partner and I are having a debate about what a condiment is. 

Dan Pashman: Okay, and what's your business?

Leland: We have a little French fry stand. 

Dan Souza: Oh, nice!

Dan Pashman: It's like a stand or a truck? What is it?

Leland: Oh, we aspire to a truck ... 

[LAUGHING] 

Leland: No, it's a stand set up at a farmers market here. 

Dan Pashman: Putting aside for a minute whether you call them condiments or sauces — what do you serve with the fries?

Leland: So last year was our first year doing it. We were doing a lot of gourmet toppings, but no one was really buying into much except for falafel. And we had, usually, about six sauces and condiments going at any time. So it would be ketchup, tartar sauce, chipotle mayo, curry mayo, and toom — it's a garlic sauce — and some other stuff that would kind of rotate in and out. 

Dan Souza: Wait, can I dig in a little bit about the falafel aspect of this? You had fries and falafel, but now you just have fries?

Leland: It was fries but there was an option to add on top of the cone a couple balls of falafel. 

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] Okay, so, one, your toppings was an entirely other fried food. 

[LAUGHING] 

Leland: I hadn't thought of it like that, but yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, Souza, I'm already skeptical of the definitions that both Leland [Dan Souza: I know ... ] and his business partner use for anything. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: If falafel constitutes as a french fry topping ... 

Dan Souza: A topping, yeah. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: So Leland, make your case for me. You say you're embroiled in a debate over what is a condiment and what is a sauce. How do you define the difference? 

Leland: I think a condiment has to be preserved in vinegar or has vinegar as one of its major ingredients. 

Dan Pashman: Why? Why do you feel that that should be the dividing line? 

Leland: Because it seems like condiment was just getting too broad. I mean, it could be anything. It could be onions that you put on top of a hotdog. So I wanted to get it down to kind of a specific category of topping. 

Dan Pashman: But why is this important to you? 

Leland: I don't know. I guess, I really — I'd like to quantify things and categorize things. 

Dan Pashman: And Leland, do you find — are you this way in other respects? Are you the kind of person who really likes to impose structure upon the world around you?

Leland: I think the world around me would probably say yes. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Souza: I'm super curious about mayonnaise specifically and where that falls for you. 

Leland: I mean, mayonnaise is one of the basic French sauces, isn't it?

Dan Souza: Yes. Mayonnaise, you know, has an acidic component to it. Sometimes it's mustard, sometimes it's lemon juice, sometimes it's certainly vinegar. 

Leland: Right. 

Dan Souza: But you're saying that mayonnaise is a sauce. 

Leland: Right. I mean, and the vinegar in mayonnaise doesn't really preserve it or extend it's life in any significant way. So it's a fairly minor ingredient. 

Dan Souza: No. No, that's not technically true. I mean, I think without the acidity in there, you would see a mayonnaise go bad faster. And it's not — you know, it doesn't have to be vinegar in order to be important. You need a water component in order to make into mayonnaise. But it could be water. 

Leland: Right.

Dan Souza: It would taste very flabby and fatty without the acidity in there. 

Leland: Right. 

Dan Souza: So I would say the acidity is there for flavor and some preservation. 

Leland: Okay. I defer to your superior knowledge on that. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So if I'm making — if I'm having a cheeseburger and I open the bun and spread ketchup and mayo and mustard onto the inside of that bud, I am adding both sauces and condiments to that burger?

Leland: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Even though in terms of texture and use, they are pretty indistinguishable?

Leland: Yes, and if you were to add BBQ sauce on top of those two things, you would be adding another condiment. 

Dan Souza: BBQ? [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: BBQ Sauce is a condiment? Even when you pour it over ribs?

Leland: Uh-huh!

Dan Pashman: Why is that when you pour tomato sauce on pasta, it's a sauce, but when you pour BBQ sauce on ribs, it's a condiment?

Leland: Vinegar. 

Dan Pashman: Leland, can you put your business partner Darryl on the phone? Let's talk to her. 

Leland: Uh, I, for sure, can. Here she is. 

Darryl: Hello?

Dan Pashman: Hey, Darryl!

Darryl: Hi. 

Dan Pashman: So how'd you end up running a French fry stand with this guy Leland?

Darryl: Oh, we both worked in the boatyard and had mutual friends and then became friends. 

Dan Pashman: So, Darryl, what's your argument? Where do you believe the line should be drawn between condiments and sauces?

Darryl: I don't think that there is a line. I think that they're interchangeable and I think that it just kind of just depends on application. 

Dan Pashman: So hot sauce could be a sauce or it could be a condiment. Ketchup could be a sauce or it could be a condiment. 

Darryl: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Souza: You just mentioned that you guys met in a boatyard. I was recently on a cruise for work and while I was on there, I kept referring to the vessel that we're on as a boat, much to the chagrin of everyone that works on that vessel. How do you define a ship versus a boat? Is it a use case?

Dan Pashman: I love this question. Go on. 

Darryl: I mean, I'd pretty much call anything but I believe, technically, if it's bigger, it's a ship?

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] So your understanding of this is about as sharp as mine, I think. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Well, what's Leland saying? Does he have an answer to this question?

Darryl: Oh, here's Leland. [LAUGHS] 

Leland: Hello?

Dan Pashman: Leland, what's the difference between a boat and a ship?

Leland: It all comes down to size and I'd have to look it up again, but it's either tonnage or the length. 

Dan Pashman: But at its essence, a boat is a transportation device. So it works on the same properties. It could be made out of the same materials. It could be fundamentally the same thing and you just changed the way it's used, and all of a sudden it goes from being a boat to a ship. 

Leland: That's ... true? 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: All right, Souza, what are your final thoughts? Where do you stand>

Dan Souza: I really think that we need to kind of loosen up — and I think I'm specifically talking only to Leland on this, in terms of the categorization, and I would rather see it kind looser that things could be a condiment and sauce, cause I think we all know what we're talking about and we don't necessarily need that definition to make it call clear. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I agree. I think that the exact same food could be used as a condiment or used as a sauce. Just like milk can be an ingredient or it can be a drink or it can be kind of a sauce when you pour it over cereal — or maybe cereal is a soup, as we've discussed here before. The same food can play different roles. 

Dan Souza: Well, and Dan, I would to that that Leland's actually on board with that if we look at his falafel on top of fries example, [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] where as soon as the falafel was top of the fries, it became a topping, and I think that's truly where his heart lies — usage. 

Dan Pashman: Is that fair, Leland?

Leland: I think I'm gonna let this argument die. You guys have laid out a pretty good counter argument. 

Dan Pashman: Well, good. I hear Darryl laughing in the background. Darryl and Leland in Port Townsend in Washington, thanks guys. Best of luck. 

Leland: Oh, it's been a ton of fun. I appreciate it. 

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Dan Pashman: All right, Dan Souza, before I let you go, I'm gonna give you three food science questions. 

Dan Souza: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: Some from me, some from listeners, and you have to answer all three of them in three minutes or however long it takes. 

Dan Souza: [LAUGHS] Okay. 

Dan Pashman: All right, here we go. First question ...

CLIP (DALE FRAME): Hi Dan, this is Dale Frame ... 

CLIP (MELINDA FRAME): And Melinda ...

CLIP (DALE FRAME): From DeWitt, Michigan, and my wife and I have a disagreement about storing food in the garage. If we have a turkey to thaw on Thanksgiving, we can put it out there for a couple of days instead of it occupying a huge chunk of the refrigerator. The garage door stores other things: cars, tools, lawn and garden equipment, etc. Why not utilize it?

CLIP (MELINDA FRAME): Exactly. The garage is where we store all sorts of stuff — dirty stuff. Our food does not belong there, even if the food is covered and well protected. 

Dan Pashman: Dan, thoughts?

Dan Souza: So I think this is one of the big benefits of living in a cold climate and there's not a lot of those benefits, so you gotta kind of own it, is being able to cool things outside, you know, during the colder months. There's no risk in doing this. I mean, if you were — you know, if you had [LAUGHS] kind of paint thinner pouring all over the place and it's a really dangerous environment, you don't want your food out there. But if you segregate it from everything else and you cover the food while it's chilling, it's completely safe to do. 

Dan Pashman: All right, well, Dale and Melinda in DeWitt, Michigan, Dan Souza sides with Dale. 

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Dan Pashman: Next one up, Dan. And this one comes from me. I have this dessert that I make for my kids with mashed bananas. I call it banana pudding, but it's not actually pudding. 

Dan Souza: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: It's a healthier version. What I do is I take bananas and I mash them up with a fork and I add a little bit of melted salted butter and cinnamon. 

Dan Souza: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And I find that when I mash bananas and with and fork and mash and mash until they turn almost the consistency of pudding, they taste much sweeter and yet I am adding no sugar. Is there anything you can throw my way that might explain this?

Dan Souza: I'm kind of gonna be guessing a bit here, but so if there are enzymes active in those bananas and you're exposing them to, you know, all the different starches that are in the bananas, enzymes can break starches down into sugars and that can actually make something taste sweeter. I don't know specifically about bananas but I imagine there's a high probability that that's the case, that you're sweetening through giving those enzymes access to starch. 

Dan Pashman: That's a good answer. That makes sense. I'm gonna go with it. 

Dan Souza: All right, let's go with it. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: All right. 

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Dan Pashman: Okay, one more in the lightning round. Here we go. 

CLIP (TRACEY): Hi Dan, this is Tracey from Boston. 

CLIP (ALDEN): Hi Dan, this is Alden from Boston. Tracey and I have an ongoing debate over the intricacies of fried eggs. I believe that the whites should be fully cooked on an over-easy egg with a runny yolk. 

CLIP (TRACEY): And I disagree with that. I think the white on an over easy egg is slightly runny — not transparent but still wiggly. We would like to ask The Sporkful to explain the difference between an over easy versus over medium egg to help us settle this dispute. 

Dan Souza: So the very reason you are flipping over an over easy egg versus keeping it sunny side up is you want to cook the white that is — that thin layer of white that is covering the yolk. So a properly cooked over easy egg should have fully cooked white on all sides. When you want an over medium egg, that completely relates to how cooked the yolk is. And it means you don't want the yolk to be quite as runny, so you're cooking it a little bit longer. 

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Dan Souza: If you want a little bit of runny white? Go for your sunny side up egg. 

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Dan Pashman: Well, that does it for this show. Dan Souza is the editor in chief of Cooks Illustrated. Check out his work at CooksIllustrated.com, and you can sign up for their new science newsletter. It has tons of great, original content about food, science, and cooking. It's at CooksIllustrated.com/science. Thanks, Dan!

Dan Souza: Thanks a lot for having me.

Dan Pashman: By the way, if you’re in Port Townsend Washington, Leland and Daryl’s French fry stand is called Sputnik’s Fries. They’re at the Port Townsend Farmers Market, which runs Saturdays from May to December.

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