Dan Pashman: Can you just say your name and introduce yourself, tell us your title?

Devin Pickard: My name is Devin Pickard, I'm the owner of Papa KayJoe's BBQ. In Centerville, Tennessee. No title, just Devin. 

Dan Pashman: Well, you have another job.

Devin Pickard: I do. I'm a preacher. Yeah. 

MUSIC

Devin Pickard: I would prefer them calling me Right Reverend or Your Highness or something but they never, they never I've tried to get people to do that or, you know, curtsy or bow but they never, they never do that. 

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people.

Dan Pashman: This is the last stop in our month in the South. So far, I spoke to Karen Blockman Carrier in Memphis, I took a road trip visiting gas station restaurants in Alabama and Mississippi, and I talked to Deb Freeman, who released a new documentary about the iconic Virginian Edna Lewis. Today on The Sporkful, I travel to Centerville, Tennessee, where I’m meeting up with pitmaster and preacher Devin Pickard. Centerville is a small town an hour southwest of Nashville. It's the seat of Hickman County and the birthplace of country comedian Minnie Pearl.

Dan Pashman: Johnny Cash lived in the area for a time, too. He even wrote a song called Saturday Night in Hickman County.

Johnny Cash (CLIP): When the sun goes down in Nashville Go out that Memphis highway Between Centerville and Dixon On the gravel roads and byways They'll be running off the shine That we'll be bringing in the bounty Saturday night in Hickman County.

Dan Pashman: Papa KayJoe's BBQ is on the outskirts of town, set into a hill by the Duck River. It's on a piece of land that's been in Devin Pickard's family for at least a half century. If you go up the hill a little more, you'll find Devin's house and his parents house. Devin started working at a barbecue place in Dixon, the next county over, when he was 15.

Dan Pashman: He managed some restaurants, too. And in 1999, when his granddad passed away, Devin's father told him he should use the family land to open his own place. Papa KayJoe's was born. Papa was what they called Devin's grandfather, who had passed away, KayJoe is short for Devin's kids, Kaylee and Jordan. 

Dan Pashman: When I visited the restaurant, I asked Devin about his barbecue education.

Devin Pickard: Well, I just learned at the place in Dixon, it was really old school barbecue, so we cooked shoulders, we burned hickory wood. And with a shovel, would, you know, shovel up some coals, scatter the coals under the shoulders. There were no thermostats or anything, so you just kind of learn. Eventually you learn where your hot spots are, you learn how much coals to put here and how much coals to put there. I learned to cook by feel. As it's browning up, you know, it's time to turn it. And that takes a long time to learn how to do it right.

Dan Pashman: Something I don't understand about barbecue, Devin, is, you know, like, I understand why there's not great local corn in Wisconsin in February. And I understand why there's not great lobster in Oklahoma. No offense, Oklahoma. But, to me, it seems like barbecue is more like a craft that you learn, and if you got a good cut of meat, and a good smoker, you should be able to do it anywhere. And yet, I can tell you, living in New York, every year, a new barbecue joint opens up, and it's always the same story. This so and so, he went down south, and he lived in Tennessee, or uh, South Carolina, or Texas, or whatever it was. And he trained under the pitmasters, and he learned all the secrets, and he took the smoker and hitched it to the back of a truck, and he brought it up here to New York, and now he's making authentic barbecue in New York, and it's never the same. Ever. Why not?

Devin Pickard: The smoker that I have right now, I bought from a fella who had the dream of doing that in Indianapolis, I think. Bought this big smoker and I don't think he ever even sniffed opening up one because he realized it was too hard. It can be a difficult thing. I think people may underestimate how to cook good barbecue. Some of the best pit masters in the world are folks who are probably over 50 years old because they've just learned their craft and fine tuned it over the course of all that time and oh well that was a little too much salt or well I should have used kosher salt as opposed to table salt or brisket you've got to cook to temp and you need, you don't want too done cause it'll taste like pot roast and all that stuff. And the thing about it as well, you would assume that if you cook a cut of meat the same way every time that it's gonna turn out the same way every time, but with barbecuing that's not necessarily true. For whatever reason, every now and then either too much fat rendered out or it wasn't, you know, it didn't render out enough. It's a difficult thing to keep consistent.

Dan Pashman: When you walk into Papa KayJoe's, you're hit with the unmistakable smell of smoked meat. And you'll know exactly where you are because just about everything on the walls relates to Hickman County. Photos, newspaper clippings, even the high school basketball team's old scoreboard. 

Dan Pashman: Then, there's a big sign that says, Easter is all about Jesus. Devin's faith is a huge part of his life. A few miles up the road from the restaurant is Devin's ministry. Hope Church. It's non denominational. Devin started it a couple years ago. He's been preaching since he was 17. Ever since the regular pastor, where his family was going at the time, was away at the last minute. Devin filled in and never looked back. In college, he'd preach on the weekends here and there to make extra money. Now he's 48 and has his own congregation of 150 people. And Devin has a very clear idea of the kind of place he wants Hope Church to be.

Devin Pickard: You know, I preach in Chuck Taylor tennis shoes and t-shirts. So, we try to make it very welcoming for folks who maybe don't feel comfortable wearing a suit and tie. And we're real addiction driven. Most, every family out there has had someone that has struggled with addiction in one way or another.

Dan Pashman: Why was it important to you to focus on that?

Devin Pickard: Well, my oldest daughter had a season of addiction in her life, a real struggle right out of high school. So it was a real personal thing for us. I lived it and am living it. You know, she's in recovery and we pray to God that she never goes back. But it's, uh, we have seen here what addiction does to families and to individuals and to communities. I mean, it's a, it's a really, really tough thing. 

Dan Pashman: Are there other constituencies or groups that might feel left out at other churches that you want to feel welcome at your church? 

Devin Pickard: We welcome anybody, anyone who's searching for God. And we don't care, you know, who you vote for. We don't care what color you are. We don't care what country you're from. I used to use the word tolerant, but I don't like that word. A fella explained to me sometime back that when you say tolerate, really what that's saying is you know, you're lesser than me, but I kind of will tolerate, let you grace my presence with your presence. And so I've thrown the tolerance word out. We just want to embrace people who are really at a very dark place in their life. You know, we feel like we can draw a lot more people to a relationship with the Lord by showing compassion and understanding rather than shoving them away because they're not like us.

Dan Pashman: What do you do, how do you handle it when you get a potential new parishioner that you're meeting, maybe you're sharing a meal with, and it becomes clear to you that that's not the kind of church that they're looking for.

Devin Pickard: I let them make that decision. We don't run them off, by no means. 

Dan Pashman: Is there a specific story you can share of an interaction you had with someone where you had that kind of exchange where it was clear that maybe they were looking for a different kind of church than what you wanted to be providing?

Devin Pickard: Yes. We had some folks show up to visit a few weeks after the Orlando shooting, at the gay nightclub. And, oddly enough, we had a meal that day. So, as is usually the case, if there's a new couple they're, you know, they'll kind of go sit by themselves. So I, as a preacher, gotta go sit and talk with them, make them feel comfortable. So I did. And during that conversation, they essentially said, you know, praise God for that massacre and we hope there are more. I swallowed my food. I told them we were glad they were there and I just kind of excused myself. They were at the wrong church. They were sitting with the wrong preacher. We love… We love. We love. Now there may be things in your life or in the lives of other people that I disagree with. That believe maybe the Bible has a certain thing to say about that topic. But nothing would ever, ever, ever cause me to say, praise God, that all those innocent people died. Nothing ever stops me from loving.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So you've gotten a sense of Devin as a pit master and as a preacher. But how do these two roles come together? Well, there's an obvious connection and a less obvious one.

Devin Pickard: Well, if we have any kind of a meal at church, they expect me to bring barbecue. And they want it free, of course. It's odd. Our attendance is higher when they know we're going to eat. Isn't that amazing? Um, which is fine. 

LAUGHTER

Devin Pickard: But, I don't have a church office per se. But the office is out back in the pit. Um, people seem to feel more comfortable showing up during the week. I'm out back cooking or doing whatever. Can we talk? You know, they may say, can we talk? I need a little bit of time. I, I think some folks would rather do that than come to a church office where things seem sanitary and things seem rigid. I don't know. People get really good at putting masks on on Sundays and portraying something that they're not. You know, they're screaming at each other in the car when they get out of the parking lot and then they get out. Hello. How's everybody doing? And I hope that Hope Church and Papa KayJoe's in some ways are synonymous, not only because people can find me at either place, but because they know that they're going to be accepted and loved at either place. They're going to be fed at either place, and hopefully that they leave both places feeling better than they did when they got there.

Dan Pashman: Hey. Oh, yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Later that afternoon, Devin took me out back to see the barbecue pit. 

Dan Pashman: Oh, that smell. 

Dan Pashman: He's got his old smoker out there that he doesn't use anymore, and a newer one. It's in a shed that's open on two sides. There are piles of boxes and a table where Devin does his prep work.

Devin Pickard: You know, it means a lot to have it on this property. So my mom and dad, if there were no trees here, you could see their house is right here. Uh, my daughter and her husband live beside them. Uh, and we own, you know, property over that way. And then, there goes my brother. Yeah, bye bye. So yeah, it's kind of, my daddy calls it Pickard Hill. [LAUGHTER]

Dan Pashman: Now, at any good barbecue joint, the pit elicits a certain reverence. It's where the pitmaster works their magic. Because, you know, they don't put filet mignon in the smoker. Barbecue places don't serve you a porterhouse. The iconic cuts of meat in barbecue are the ones that are too tough to eat unless they're cooked for hours. They're the castoffs. And a great pitmaster sees their potential and transforms them.

Dan Pashman: The pit is where these lowly cuts of meat are redeemed. So really, a barbeque pit is the perfect place for a preacher. And it makes sense that so many of Devin's parishioners would come here to talk with him. After Devin and I spent a little more time chatting, a parishioner named Mark showed up. He works in a nearby factory. Mark didn't grow up very religious. His parents never really felt welcome at church. Devin just baptized him a few years ago. 

Dan Pashman: What inspired you to get baptized at age 50?

Mark: Uh, a lot of it had to do with being around Devin. Seeing the way he was with people and Just the way they work church

Dan Pashman: Tell me about it. What's the way that they work church is different from other churches.

Mark: They accepted everybody. Uh, oh, you're gonna make me tear up now. Um, I got that big man syndrome. I tear up really easily. But yeah, Devin… I mean they just treat everybody the same. They don't look at somebody because they got tattoos or they got piercings as a different type of person. They just look at him as another person.

Dan Pashman: What is it about you that made you feel not welcome at other churches when you were younger?

Mark: Well, you'd go to some churches and it'd be like Sunday they'd eat you up and Monday they wouldn't know you.

Dan Pashman: And what's the connection between the church and the restaurant? How do these two things work together?

Mark: Well, it works out good for people in the church because Devin's not in the factory like I am. If somebody wants to talk to him, he's able to stop what he's doing and help him out. There's been a lot of people come out here with a lot of problems in this pit and been solved.

Dan Pashman: So this is like this, uh, this is, it's its own kind of church right here. 

Mark: Yeah, it's like a holy smoker right here.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, I will eat at Papa KayJoe's. You didn't think I'd go all the way to Centerville, Tennessee and not get myself a meal, did you? Plus, cookbook author Tammy Algood introduces me to a special way to end a meal, and I attempt to put my own spin on it.

Dan Pashman: You sure you don't want another bite of cake?

Tammy Algood: You're a bad boy. Dan, a bad boy.

Dan Pashman: That's all coming up. Stick around.

+++ BREAK+++

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, I spoke with the journalist Deb Freeman, who just made a documentary about Edna Lewis. Edna Lewis was one of the first Black women to write a successful mainstream cookbook about the South. She talked about seasonality and farm to table cooking long before it became trendy, and tied that approach to the way she grew up in Freetown, Virginia. While she grew up with farm fresh food, she was also raised with recipes that were heavily influenced by European cuisine, because she grew up near Monticello, Thomas Jefferson’s estate slash plantation.

Dan Pashman: When she came to New York to work as a caterer, she took the New York food world by storm. Here’s Deb Freeman.

Deb Freeman: She takes her experiences from learning from cooking for all of these white families and these white dinner parties and marries that with the tradition of cooking that she had back in Virginia and creates this menu. It really became the hot spot for bohemians, to use that word of the time. And so folks, very famous people would show up there. Eleanor Roosevelt showed up there and all of these dignitaries showed up there for her food. 

Dan Pashman: Edna had a huge influence on American food culture — she’s probably had an impact on the food you eat today. But there’s so much about Edna’s life that’s still unknown, which is why Deb wanted to make a documentary highlighting her life and work.  Hear all about it in last week's episode. It's up now wherever you got this one. 

Dan Pashman: All right, let's get back to the show. 

Dan Pashman: After spending time talking with Devin and hearing his story, I was ready to eat. I didn't order, I just put myself in his hands. I was joined for the meal by the food journalist Tammy Algood. She was actually the one who brought me to Papa KayJoe's in the first place.

Dan Pashman: Tammy was born in Starkville, Mississippi. She’s a food editor for Tennessee Magazine, and she's written five cookbooks. She got into cookbook writing when people in her Bible study group were having trouble following recipes in other cookbooks.

Dan Pashman: Tammy thought she could do better. One of her books is about Sunday dinner in the South, which is the meal traditionally eaten after church. So, it seemed like there was one obvious place to begin. 

Dan Pashman: So we're talking Sunday dinners. In your mind, what makes a great casserole?

Tammy Algood: Balance. I see a lot of people that treat casseroles like they treat salads. In essence, they clean out their produce drawer and they put a lot of things in there and by the time that fork gets to your mouth, there's so many different flavors and textures going on there that you can't almost process all of it. So I think that the perfect casserole is a nice – has a little crunch in there but not too much. Has a little spice in there, but not too much. Has a few vegetables in there, but not everything that you own. And it has a protein source in there that balances everything out. So, I think that, uh, simple is better when it comes to casseroles and salads.

Dan Pashman: I'm glad you mentioned the importance of texture. I mean, I'm a crunch guy. I like crunch and spice. And I think you're right. If you don't have something Crunchy inside your casserole you're gonna be in trouble. 

Tammy Algood: It's boring. 

Dan Pashman: Right. So with Sunday dinner in particular, there's kind of a logistical challenge because you're in church all morning and then you got to come home and everyone's starving.

Tammy Algood: Correct. 

Dan Pashman: How do you handle that?

Tammy Algood: I believe that's the perfect role for appetizers. My mother's perfect solution for Sunday dinner was chicken spaghetti. So it's a merge of a chicken casserole with spaghetti in there that was oven-ready. She would set it out of the refrigerator before we left to go to church. And then as soon as we got home, the oven was preheating and it was back in the oven. And basically, with a little bit of flatbread and some pickled vegetables, we were fine for about 45 minutes while that heated in the oven. And that was all we got. You just got a little bit of an appetizer. There weren't trays of appetizers set out. There were individual portions set out.

Dan Pashman: Something to take the edge off. 

Tammy Algood: Correct. 

Dan Pashman: So, for your Sunday dinner cookbook, you spoke with a lot of preachers.

Tammy Algood: Forty.

Dan Pashman: Wow. What were some of the consistencies that you heard from them over again about the relationship between food and church? 

Tammy Algood: Unfortunately, a lot of the preachers and pastors and bishops and rabbis that I interviewed had zero memory of a Sunday dinner at a parishioner's home because they're always taken out to eat. In fact, I had several that said, you know, I've never been invited. I can't give you a story. And that made me very sad to hear that.

Dan Pashman: Why do you think parishioners would be reluctant to invite them over?

Tammy Algood: I think that it's because of the time issue that we talked about, and I think that it is a feeling of inadequacy on their part.

Dan Pashman: You mean like, what if our home isn't nice enough? 

Tammy Algood: Correct. 

Dan Pashman: What if I'm not a good enough cook?

Tammy Algood: What if I don't have um, a beautifully set table? What if I don't have fresh flowers on the table? What if we don't have matching dishes? I also think that a lot of clergy told me that there is a level of competition there. That they find out that so and so had them over the week before and they're going to try and outdo that person the next Sunday.

Dan Pashman: Can that also be an issue at church potlucks? 

Tammy Algood: Totally. Totally. I have spent a lot of time at church potlucks. And what I see now is a truly concerted effort to pull your eye to their dish. So garnishes that were never a part of potlucks when I was growing up are suddenly all over the place. And even little place cards telling you exactly what these are. So it's not your grandmother's potluck anymore. They've upped their game a whole lot on that.

Dan Pashman: But the fact that this sort of, uh, this competition has arisen, what does that tell you about church communities?

Tammy Algood: Well, it tells me that in the midst of the love, there's also a healthy amount of pride. And I like that. I like that people are putting extra effort into things, and that it's not just an ordinary day. This is Sunday potluck. It's meant to stand apart from every other meal, and they're making it do that.

Dan Pashman: So Sunday dinner is special, and like with a lot of special meals, there are some important rules of etiquette.

Tammy Algood: Never, ever, ever do you start eating until the food has been blessed. And so, what I like is that, that is the signal. That the meal starts. That you don't just, everybody's coming in at different times and sitting down and fixing their plates. That there's a start to the meal and that there's an end to the meal. Another etiquette point is that you don't get into anything controversial. That this is a, this is to be an enjoyed experience after your soul has been fed. So, uh, politics and confrontational things like that aren't really done. In fact, most of the time in the South, what we do is talk about the food.

Dan Pashman: It's interesting, I guess, food is such a universal topic that so if someone's like, Hmm seems like we're on the verge of nuclear war. You could be like check out these biscuits

Tammy Algood: Exactly! Exactly. Get your perspective right, man.

Dan Pashman: We could be gone tomorrow, we got biscuits today. That's right. 

Tammy Algood: We're happy today.

Dan Pashman: Pretty soon the trays of food started arriving. They were delivered by Devin's mom, who the family calls Oma. 

Dan Pashman: I see baked beans. I see coleslaw. I see potato salad. I see collard greens. Oh, here comes the meat. Oh, mercy.

Tammy Algood: Oma, I don't think we have enough food. I know it. 

Oma: Shame on him.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Oma, what are your instructions for the corn cake? Are these corn cakes?

Oma: Yes. Well, my instruction is to put a big pat of butter on them. Okay. You know, a pat here and a pat here.

Dan Pashman: As Oma says, a pat here and a pat here, she gestures to each cheek of her behind.

Dan Pashman: Can I just take a piece of this sausage with my hand, Tammy? 

Tammy Algood: Mm hmm.

Dan Pashman: Tammy showed me how to build a structure that one of Devin's friends came up with. He calls it the Southern Way. You start with a corn cake, add pulled pork and a bit of barbecue sauce, and then top it with coleslaw. Fold it up sort of like a taco. You know, Tammy talked about the importance of balance in casseroles. Well, that's also so important in barbecue, and Devin nailed it. 

Dan Pashman: Oh my. Oh, it's so good. 

Tammy Algood:  You can taste the smoke.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. The meat was smoky and salty, but not too much. The corn cakes and barbecue sauce were sweet, but not too much. Coleslaw brought crunch and acidity. I mean, wow. Then there was the sausage casing snap and the tenderness of the chicken and the ribs. And the surprise hit for me? Turnip greens. They have this mild bitterness that really stood out so nicely. Then came dessert. Devin's mom, Oma, that's her department. But she hadn't been down at Papa KayJoe's in a while because she had knee replacement surgery. When she heard I was coming, she got right back to baking. And I am so grateful that she did. I mean, carrot cake, chess pie, coconut chess pie. In case you don't know, chess pie is a custard pie common in the South. I took some of each home in my carry on. I was eating them for days. Now their memory is kind of haunting me. I'm sure that's normal. Anyway, Tammy and I were stuffed. 

Dan Pashman: But, but I noticed when they were clearing the plates, Tammy, and we still have our tray of ribs and chicken and sausage here, and you said, No, don't take that yet, leave that here.

Tammy Algood: Correct. 

Dan Pashman: Why? 

Tammy Algood: It's our sweet out.

Dan Pashman: Sweet out? 

Tammy Algood: Our sweet out. So in the south, after the meal is finished and you've finished your dessert, you have a little something salty to get the sweet flavor out of your mouth. So we, in the South, we call it a sweet out. So the best sweet out I can even imagine having is just a little bite of this meat after our meal.

Dan Pashman: Do you ever end up falling into a situation where you have a little taste of the salty, and then you're like, well, maybe just one more bite of cake. And then you have the cake, and you're like, well, I need my sweet out now, and then you're like, eh, maybe one more bite of pie. And you like, fall down this horrible vortex and never stop eating. 

Tammy Algood: You could, but, but that would be your own problem. You're supposed to completely finish your dessert before you do your sweet out.

Dan Pashman: Okay, you didn't mention that part. 

[LAUGHTER]

Dan Pashman: Okay, gotcha. So, what do you think we should, what should be our sweet out, Tammy?

Tammy Algood: I think our sweet out should be that little piece of pulled pork.

Dan Pashman: Okay. Let's do it. Oh, you're right, that is nice.

Tammy Algood: Perfect.

Dan Pashman: And it tastes saltier.

Tammy Algood: Yes it does. 

Dan Pashman: After having just had it. 

Tammy Algood: It changes the whole flavor. 

Dan Pashman: Oh my gosh. You sure you don't want another bite of cake?

Tammy Algood: You're a bad boy, Dan. A bad boy.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: That’s Tammy Algood. She's the author of five cookbooks including Sunday Dinner in the South and The Complete Southern Cookbook. My thanks to Devin Pickard, Oma, and everyone at Papa KayJoe's BBQ. And this is a big year for Devin! Papa KayJoe's BBQ celebrates its 25th anniversary this year, and Hope Church is celebrating its 10th anniversary!  So congratulations to Devin and the whole family. If you're near Centerville, make sure you stop in, say hello, tell them The Sporkful sent you. One more big bit of news, Devin is running for city mayor this fall, so if you live in Centerville, look out for his campaign.

Next week, we bring back the Salad Spinner, our rapid fire roundtable discussion of food news. Normally, we discuss the strange and silly food news stories out there.  Tariffs, raw milk, the price of eggs, bird flu. All these things, we get two all star journalists joining us to help us break it all down for you. And if you're looking for more sporkful episodes to listen to, check out the rest of our Month in the South episodes, from my conversation with Karen Blockman Carrier in Memphis, to my road trip of gas station restaurants across the South, to last week's show about Edna Lewis.