Dan Pashman: Well, let me back up for a second, Gary. This is a food podcast.

Gary Gulman: No, I know.

Dan Pashman: Oh, okay. 

Gary Gulman: I'm familiar. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Okay, good, good. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: So, um ... 

Gary Gulman: You know, I also have a theory on the word "spork" that I want to put a bookmark in, so ... 

Dan Pashman: Let's do it.

Gary Gulman: You want to do that right now? 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, cause I don't wanna forget. 

Gary Gulman: Okay. The first time I heard somebody refer to the cafeteria spoon fork as a "spork", I thought, wow, that is — I didn't know the word portmanteau yet. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Gary Gulman: Because it — there weren't that many portmanteaus.

Dan Pashman: Right. Yeah. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: So I was, I found that very clever. I was like, oh, a spoon and fork. And I remembered there was something that bugged me about it and I wasn't able to articulate it. And then I realized that, last summer, I said, "Oh, the reason I never cared for that portmanteau was because it was an inaccurate depiction of the fork's contribution to that utensil.  

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: And so, the fork is not doing half the work. It's not half the utensil. It's mostly spoon. And so, I think if they were to be ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: If they were to be honest with the contribution of fork to the, what we know as the spork, it would not be called the the spork. It would be called — and I'll need complete silence for this. Okay, it would be called the spoon-k. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Because you cannot gain purchase with the times of a spork on any food more durable than raviolis. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Which is the singular form of ravioli that I've just invented. I'm hoping it'll take off like the spork did. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it's not for foodies, it's for eaters, I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Before we get into this week's show, I gotta tell you about what's coming next week. We're launching Anything’s Pastable. It's a four-part series about the making of my first cookbook. It's basically a sequel to Mission: ImPASTAble. So if you love that, you're gonna love this. There's gonna be lots of Janie, lots of the kids. And I'm going to take you inside the cookbook process, from the highs and lows of recipe testing, to a research trip across Italy, to the agonizing decisions over the design of the cover. By the end, you'll never look at a cookbook the same way again.

Dan Pashman: And while you get psyched for that, I want you to remind you that my Anything’s Pastable tour kicks off in just a few weeks. I'm hitting the road. These are live Sporkful tapings and book signings. It starts in New York City, where I’ll be in conversation with YouTube star, Claire Saffitz. Then Chicago with Joanne Lee Molinaro, the Korean Vegan, Twin Cites with Ann Kim — Atlanta, Miami, D.C. and more. Get tickets and info at Sporkful.com/tour. I can’t wait to see you on the road!

Dan Pashman: Okay, let’s get to the show. Gary Gulman is the kind of comic that other comics love. He's obsessive about language and the craft of comedy. He's been doing stand-up for 30 years, and he's one of only a handful of people who've done sets on every single late-night show. Early in his career, Gary did so many bits about food, he jokingly called himself "a strictly food-based comic." He did a lot of observational comedy, like in this 2006 bit about Fig Newtons:

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): When I was a — let me tell you a little story. When I was a kid, you could only get figs in your Newtons. And I’m proud of them because they’ve turned the Newton industry on its ass. I am so proud of them because you could only get fig, which is a pretty — I give them credit for that. That’s a pretty bold move to dedicate your entire product line to a fig, of all fruits. I've not — a fig? I’ve never seen a fig outside of a Newton in my life. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): A fig could walk down those steps right now and I’d be dumbfounded. 

Dan Pashman: About 10 years ago, Gary's comedy started to evolve in a new direction, and the role of food in his act started changing too. Today, we’re gonna talk about that evolution.

Dan Pashman: But first, a little backstory. Gary grew up in a Jewish family in Peabody, Massachusetts in the '70s and '80s. His parents were divorced, and Gary and his two older brothers lived with their mom. She worked at the Hallmark Store in the mall, and she sometimes brought Gary along with her.

Gary Gulman: I couldn't really hang out in the store because the boss would be there and he frowned upon the babysitting that was going on. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: And I was 8 or 9-years-old, and I would wander the mall from Toys “R” Us to Musicland to Bookends, and then I made friends with the kids that worked at the Orange Julius. They were teenagers, and they saw me so frequently, and I bought so many hot dogs there that I — eventually, they gave me an account. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: And then if their manager wasn't there, they would give me free hot dogs and Julii. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: And it was just this great — and pretzels also. It was a great scene, man. It was ... It was a good time to eat because I wasn't aware of the the detrimental effects of hot dogs on my ...

Dan Pashman: I'm still not aware of them. 

Gary Gulman: Um ... [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Are there ... No. I haven't read about that. 

Gary Gulman: They're pure poison, I think. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I'm still standing.

Gary Gulman: Okay. 

Dan Pashman: So for folks of a younger generation, they may not know the Orange Julius.

Gary Gulman: Interesting. 

Dan Pashman: Like, it was sort of like a creamsicle flavored beverage. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. Yeah, but they also had a pineapple version and a strawberry version. They had a powder that was proprietary, probably. There was a probably a Coke formula aspect to the formula.

Dan Pashman: Right. Well, so I was so curious, you know, [Gary Gulman: Okay.] getting ready to chat with you. I went on the website.

Gary Gulman: Nice.

Dan Pashman: And this is the description of the — of how they make an Orange Julius, so the ingredients. It says, "Real Orange", this is in capital R, capital O, "Real Orange blended together with a secret ingredient ... "

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: "... to Orange Julius frothy perfection."

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Capitalized.

Gary Gulman: Yeah, that's odd. 

Dan Pashman: But there's a word that you expect to come after real orange, that is conspicuously ... 

Gary Gulman: Juice.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Right. [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Yes.

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Conspicuously absent in the description. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: That's so interesting. Yeah, it's a fraud.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: But the thing that I forgot was that it was one of the early blender drink shops. Outside of a bar, you didn't really get a lot of blended drinks. And now, of course, with Jamba Juice and all the .... 

Dan Pashman: And the frappuccinos … 

Gary Gulman: Also, the frappuccinos ... 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Gary Gulman: I don't know if you've ever worked in a in a blended drink location. 

Dan Pashman: I have not. I’ve waited tables, but I didn't do that.

Gary Gulman: Yeah, I worked at a Starbucks and if there were two or more people who wanted a frappuccino, and I was by myself, I would be tempted to close the shop.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: Because I would get so behind, and I was slow to begin with. I hardly ever order any kind of blended drink, but when I do, I tip. I leave a 20, because I know ... I know how horrific ... 

Dan Pashman: Really? 

Gary Gulman: I know how horrifically arduous that position is and ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I'm all for a good tipping, but $20 on a frappuccino is very generous. 

Gary Gulman: The 20 is a new five. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: The ... My dad was very generous with tipping. No matter how broke we were, frequently it was about an eight dollar meal between me and him at IHOP and he would leave a five. And so, doing the math, that's what I'm valued at, is probably a $20 [Dan Pashman: Okay.] is the equivalent nowadays. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Money was something Gary noticed a lot when he was a kid, because his family didn’t have a lot of it. They never went hungry or lost their housing, but they did sometimes struggle to pay their gas or electric bills. They were on food stamps, and Gary got free lunch at school. Meanwhile, some of his friends were going out to a nearby restaurant where jackets were required. 

Gary Gulman: They would go as a family. And I remember thinking, "Oh man, that would be so swanky," but not only could we probably not afford the meal, the the clothing required ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Required to get in would be cost prohibitive. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: In the '90s, Gary got into the Boston comedy scene. Eventually, he moved to L.A., and in 1999 he did his first set on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. Early on, Gary saw an opportunity in jokes about food.

Gary Gulman: There weren't a lot of comedians talking about food, who weren't really talking about being overweight. John Panett, who is a legend in Boston had these great jokes about the buffet and how much he liked to eat. But essentially, they were jokes mocking himself for being so overweight. And then you had Jerry Seinfeld who talked a little bit about breakfast cereal on the the Seinfeld show and he seemed to have some food jokes. But the thing that I insisted on when I first started doing comedy was it was being original. And so I found this was sort of an inefficiency in the market, that there weren't a lot of comedians who were talking about food. They were mostly talking about drinking, drugs, sex, dating. I really was able to write a lot of food jokes. Probably my first album, there were probably 20 minutes of jokes. One was, like, a 10-minute diatribe called "The hierarchy of cookies", in which I examined every cookie I could think of. And then there was this other one about my disdain for the grapefruit.

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): So, I love grapes — hate grapefruit. Hate it. Isn’t that interesting, that they have such similar names? No similar properties. Grape: delicious, a masterpiece, way to go God. Grapefruit: Vile. Inedible. So bad it should be a vegetable. I hate the grapefruit. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS AND APPLAUDS] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): The only reason the grapefruit was even invented ... The only reason was because God wanted us to have something to compare the size of  a tumor to. That’s the only reason.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): There’s only one fruit that the grapefruit cannot destroy, won’t destroy: The grape! Another reason to love the grape because the grape had the courage, the guts, the balls, if I may, to say to grapefruit, hey, stay the hell back I’ve got a reputation to uphold okay? I’m the grape, I’m doing very well for myself and you’re not gonna screw it up for me, okay? I’m in everything. I’m in jelly, I’m in jam, I’m in juice, I’m in soda, I’m in gum, I’m in wine. Even when I’m dead, I’m a raisin. Yeah, yeah. I don’t go rotten, I go raisin. How’s that?

Gary Gulman: The default approach for most comedians of that time was to take something and shit on it, whether it be McDonald's or certain ice cream. And I thought, well, I'll be different by saying I love this. I love this thing, especially if it's something that's not appreciated. I went on this polemic about the grapefruit, but then I realized what my approach usually was. And I said, well, I can't go all negative, I have to talk about these other fruits that are so much better [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] and how the grapefruit is a ... 

Dan Pashman: Also, I mean, how much of a backlash ... 

Gary Gulman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I know. 

Dan Pashman: Is an anti-grapefruit screed going to provoke? [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Does anybody … I mean, I will enjoy a grapefruit every once in a while. I mean, I’ve acquired more of a taste for [Gary Gulman: Right. Yeah.] tart for tart flavors in my older age. But I don’t know that I'm ever like, oh yeah ... 

Gary Gulman: Right. 

Dan Pashman: Let's get into this grapefruit. 

Gary Gulman: I mean, I probably haven't had one, so I've never given myself this opportunity to acquire the taste, but …

Dan Pashman: Wait, you've never had a grapefruit? 

Gary Gulman: No. But I …

Dan Pashman: Wait. Whoa, whoa. whoa. 

Gary Gulman: Well ... 

Dan Pashman: You wrote this whole ...

Gary Gulman: I've tasted grapefruit juice. 

Dan Pashman: Oh. [LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. Yeah, I feel I did enough research to [Dan Pashman: Okay.] make make an informed ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. 

Gary Gulman: An informed takedown of the grapefruit.

[LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: I didn't realize this was going to be a gotcha interview.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Gary made his name as a comic with jokes like these grapfruit bit or the ones about Fig Newton — sharply written, opinionated, observational comedy. But his work wasn’t personal. There wasn't some deeper meaning to the jokes. 

Dan Pashman: Then Gary entered what I'll call Act II of his comedy career, in the 2010s. He had already been on Last Comic Standing, and he was gaining wider popularity. His jokes started becoming more longform and elaborate, winding stories with hilarious detours. And we started to see more of him in the jokes. There were hints at his own struggles with money, and his indignance at some of the injustices in the world. Here's a clip from his 2012 Comedy Central special, called "In This Economy?". 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): There are some moments in the journey of being broke that are ... suck. They suck. Like I went on a date to a nice restaurant, a decent restaurant, and the woman ordered something that cost market price. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): You know, when she goes to order, I’m keeping score on my menu. When she goes to order, I’m like, "Market price. What could it be?"

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): And you cannot ask. Do not — that’s a good piece of dating advice. When she orders something that’s market price — whoa whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s just check in to see what market price is today because ... I wanted to say to the waiter, just out of curiosity and not because I can't afford it, what did lobster close at today? Just ... I wasn’t able to contact my seafood broker at the end of trading today and I just ... I wonder how much it fluctuated because I have an index fund that is made up heavily of crustaceans and other ... Some other mollusk type… A lot of shellfish in there which is ironic because I’m a Jew but still, I mean .... 

Gary Gulman: I've found it in my career the poorer I was, the better jokes I would write about being poor. Like, and also the better jokes. Like I found that my desperation and also, the fact that it's such a universally understood, if not universally empathized idea, of being broke. People love those stories. And I think one of the great things that comedy does, for good and bad, is let people off the hook. And I think for a long time, people have felt more comfortable with their own failures financially when a comedian they admire admits to being broke or unwise with money. But it's unusual for comedians to talk about being well off until they're celebrities. And then there seems to be this thing where they tell you about the celebrities and their money management and how much money they have and the — it just seems to be a death knell for creativity to be that out of touch financially with the average American ... 

Dan Pashman: That's interesting. 

Gary Gulman: Or human. 

Dan Pashman: I think ... I wonder what how much of it is a matter of being out of touch and how much of it is that desperation is creative fuel?

Gary Gulman: Uh-huh. 

Dan Pashman: If you're going to do your best work, you need to feel a little bit like it could all fall apart at any second. 

Gary Gulman: [LAUGHS] Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Because you need that pressure and once you get to a point in your career where there is no pressure ... 

Gary Gulman: I think there's some of that, but I also think that there's a level of pressure that is counterproductive in that it leads to anxiety and depression. So there's probably a sweet spot, but I also know that I've never ... I've never been more comfortable in my career in terms of, I used to — every time something would go well, I would think, "Oh, I'll be able to pay rent for another year." And I feel like I am in a position now where I can cover rent for the next four or five years, if things fall apart. [LAUGHS] Anyhow, there — yeah, I think there's a sweet spot of between desperation and complete fear of an imminent demise or tragic bankruptcy. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: Coming up, Gary gets very far away from that sweet spot, and veers into desperation when his mental health unravels. But that opens the door to a new era of his comedy, when he begins using food jokes in a very different way. Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I'm Dan Pashman. And hey, before we get back to the show, when I decided to write my cookbook, Anything's Pastable, I knew I wouldn't be able to do it alone. I’d need help from people more experienced in the cookbook world. So I hired a whole team of recipe developers to work with me.

Dan Pashman: And in each episode of The Sporkful this month, we're taking a few minutes to feature one of those developers, so you can hear their stories, and learn more about their contributions to my book. This week, I'm talking with Irene Yoo.

[COOKING SOUNDS] 

Irene Yoo: Oh, this already smells so good.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: As I was looking for inspiration for the book, I came across Irene's recipe for kimchi carbonara. It was just the kind of thing I wanted for the book — a new approach to a well worn classic. Clearly, Irene would be an ideal collaborator. 

Dan Pashman: As a kid, Irene ate a lot of Korean food cooked by her mom in California, her grandma in Korea, and street vendors around Seoul.

Irene Yoo: My family has always been lovers of food. We are generally people who will read about a restaurant, hear word of mouth from like, you know, fellow, like Korean church people and, like, go find it. And then, I think we are maybe like a little bit obsessive. I know my parents, like if they find a good restaurant, they will go back over and over again until we are exhausted off that thing. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Irene Yoo: Which, I don't know, there was like six-month period when we went to El Pollo Loco for, like, every week for six months.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: So they had lots of Mexican food, a lot of Korean food, but Irene didn't really discover Italian food until she went to Philly for college.

Irene Yoo: There's so many amazing Italian restaurants there. So like I remember the first thing that really opened my eyes that I ate was risotto. And I was like, this is amazing. I've never experienced anything like this before — kind of reminded me of like Korean juk, which is like a rice porridge. I was like, I need to learn how to make this, and went home and made it over and over again until I could, like, do it with my eyes closed.

Dan Pashman: So where Irene’s parents obsessed over restaurants, Irene obsessed over recipes. In college and in her 20s, she became a passionate cook, learning how to make dishes from all over the world. She got a job at Food Network. But after all those years of making other people’s food, something changed for her.

Irene Yoo: I got to a point where I realized I was really homesick for my own, like, cultural food and Korean food in general. So that's when I started to sort of like meld the two.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Irene started hosting pop-up dinners where she served Korean American comfort food. In 2020, she posted her first recipe video on YouTube, for kimchi carbonara. And I was so happy to work with Irene to tweak that kimchi carbonara recipe for my cookbook.

Dan Pashman: I almost feel like I could go for more kimchi. 

Irene Yoo: Yeah? Nice. We could do that. 

Dan Pashman: I also wonder how it would be if we left some pieces of the kimchi chopped a little bigger.

[COOKING SOUNDS]

Irene Yoo: Right. Yeah, or bigger. Okay.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. I mean, I love a big crunchy piece of cabbage. How do you feel about that?

Irene Yoo: No, I like that. Cause I think that's also a way that we could make it unique for this.

Dan Pashman: I can tell you, the end result is phenomenal. 

Dan Pashman: Mmm. It's so good.

Dan Pashman: Sauteeing the kimchi mellows the spice but it still adds an acidity that just takes carbonara to another level. Irene and I also collaborated on a couple of new dishes, including linguine with miso white clam sauce.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: You definitely want to follow Irene on Instagram @yooeating. That’s Y-O-O eating. And remember that Anything’s Pastable is available for preorder right now! Preorders are the best way to support authors, so I really appreciate all of you who’ve already done it. We also have options to preorder a signed copy, with or without a pasta gift set. Everyone who preorders gets invited to a special Zoom cooking class that I’m hosting. So to place your order and get your invite go to Sporkful.com/book. Thank you.

Dan Pashman: Okay, back to the comedian Gary Gulman. And a quick heads up that we drop a couple of f-bombs in this next segment. We’re also going to talk about mental health and suicide, so please take care when listening.

Dan Pashman: In Act II of Gary's comedy career, he went from clever observations about the little things, to connecting those little things to his personal life, and to larger systemic issues. 

Dan Pashman: Act III would see him moving more in this direction, talking openly for the first time about his struggles with severe clinical depression. Gary believes he's had depression since he was a child. The first time he sought help was when he was in college. He went on medication and saw professionals in the years that followed. But in 2017, things really cratered. His depression got so bad that he could barely get out of bed. He could no longer work and he contemplated suicide. At the urging of his psychiatrist, Gary admitted himself into a psychiatric ward. During that time, he received electroconvulsive therapy, among other treatments. He believes it saved his life.

Dan Pashman: A couple years later, he released a comedy special that details all of this. It’s a bracingly funny look at that dark period in his life. But while Gary was going through it, his comedy was full of not-so-subtle hints at his mental state. During our conversation, I played him a clip from a set he did on Colbert, just a few months before his first hospitalization ...

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): Why is it so hard to get out of bed? I'll tell you why. Because the thing they don’t tell you growing up about life is this. Life: Hm? It’s every single day. Every single day you have to wake up and live and go through all the maintenance and the upkeep and — ugh, I can't wait to have a caregiver.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): The thing that gets me through though is donuts and ice cream. I love ice cream, but I have this thing where I have to — I don't want to eat the entire pint. So I say, just eat half the pint. But then when I get halfway through, I have this compulsion where I need to leave a flat surface.

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): Who am I leaving the flat surface — for the day crew?

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): But I find myself eating it flat. I eat more and then I’ll come across a chocolate chunk and I'll have to excavate that. Then it starts to melt around the edges. And that's delicious, so I have to eat that. Before I know it, I've hit bottom. Literally and figuratively, I've hit bottom. And I just — I finish the ice cream and I put the fork down. I — more often than not, I use a fork to eat ice cream. And if you eat ice cream with a fork, I know you so well. I know you so well. Because my policy is: I'm not washing a spoon until I’m all out of forks. And people say, "Why don't you just wash a spoon?" Ha! Why don't I shower?

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

Gary Gulman: I probably hadn't listened to that since I — I mean, I don't know that — I probably watched it that night. I may not have. I'm shocked at how good the audience was because I remember it in my head, I remember thinking, "Ah, that didn't go very well. They didn't really care for me." And now, I realize it was my depressed brain telling me that they hated me [LAUGHS], because it sounds like they were having a good time. But also, I mean, and I'm sure you noticed this, I was ill. I was really sick. That was the only thing I did that day was go put on a suit and go on The Colbert show. Like I was not functioning as an adult really. And yet, did not feel comfortable telling anybody why I couldn't ... Why I couldn't wash a spoon. And it's a dog whistle if you're depressed, you know exactly what I was going through. People have told me that they were like, "Oh yeah, we knew something was up," but I wasn't comfortable mentioning that I was depressed ... 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, like, watching it now, having some small inkling of what you were going through, like the whole routine felt almost like a cry for help. 

Gary Gulman: [LAUGHS] Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But also incredibly funny. 

Gary Gulman: I mean that — as sad a moment as that was, having that joke was sort of — I wrote the entire Great Depresh special around that joke, because that was the first joke that I had about depression.

Dan Pashman: And that ice cream bit was a very different type of food joke. But in the Colbert appearance, Gary never used the word depressed, or depression. Just two years later, the word was in the name of his HBO special. It’s called, The Great Depresh. And for that special, he tweaked the ice cream joke. 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): More times than not I would eat ice cream with a fork, which is like an unofficial symptom of depression. He's like, "Well, why does that mean you're depressed?" It may not, but it does mean at least that you did not possess the zest to wash a spoon.

Gary Gulman: I just changed a little bit by saying, this is what it's like to be depressed. You eat ice cream with a fork and if you're eating ice cream with a fork, I can pretty much diagnose you. [LAUGHS] And the context changes when you say, these are some of the unofficial symptoms of depression. So then the tone becomes a little heavier, a little bit more somber. But when you're able to mix the heavy with the humor, you get some really, really special connections with with the audience. I always did meet and greets after my shows and the meet and greets were much different once I started talking about being hospitalized and my depression. They were much more meaningful and deeper. So it was a great way to evolve as an artist to do something that was personal and also rewarding and in that way. There's a version of my career where I just continued to do the very clever observational humor that really didn't hit people in a deeper way, and I'm sure I would have been fine with that. But this way, I feel very fortunate and very grateful make that, I guess, pivot.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: The success of The Great Depresh, and Gary’s deeper connection with his audience, gave him confidence to continue to tackle more substantive issues in his work. A few months ago he released his latest special Born on 3rd Base. In it he talks about growing up poor, and makes bigger points about income inequality and class.

Dan Pashman: One bit skewers entitled customers at Chipotle, who point aggressively at each ingredient as they tell the worker behind the counter what should go in their burrito: 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): Like going to Chipotle, you may not have noticed this before tonight, but I assure you you will never not notice it after tonight. The people in front of you at Chipotle as they direct the assembly of their burrito, they wag their fingers at other humans that is staggeringly condescending. Also, completely unnecessary. They know where the corn is. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): You found it, you don’t even work here!

Dan Pashman: This Chipotle bit, aside from just being on point about the way that people — a lot of people feel entitled to talk to service workers ... 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: The whole sort of assembly line-ification [Gary Gulman: Right.] of the dining experience. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: I remember when Chipotle first burst on the scene. The whole idea, like, going down the assembly line [Gary Gulman: Yeah.] and picking your components felt very special. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah, yeah. 

Dan Pashman: You felt like you — you felt empowered.

Gary Gulman: Totally. 

Dan Pashman: But now I sort of feel like there's so many places like that.

Gary Gulman: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: To me, I feel like it's kind of degraded the eating experience a little bit.

Gary Gulman: Interesting.

Dan Pashman: Because it just creates this very sort of like, we need to get you your calories so that you can stay alive [GARY GULMAN LAUGHS] as fast as possible.

Gary Gulman: Right.

Dan Pashman: And we need to get you out of here as fast as possible [Gary Gulman: Yeah.] because we need to run as many people through this restaurant as we can. It feels a little bit dehumanized to me. 

Gary Gulman: No, I get it. I understand that totally. And it also, so for instance, when I go to Sweetgreen, I always get the shroomami. But it's also like the chef has made these choices. Like there's never been better chefs or more access to them and we can't trust them to design our meals for us. And I can see saying I would like the, the burrito and please, pinto instead of black beans, [Dan Pashman: Right, right.] or something like that. 

Dan Pashman: You're hitting on something. The whole idea of sort of like when you go to a sit down restaurant, you may have a few small — like maybe you'll say, oh, can you, you know, hold the onions or whatever. 

Gary Gulman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But, like, basically, you're gonna order what the chef ... 

Gary Gulman: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Like that's why you go to the restaurant.

Gary Gulman: Yes!

Dan Pashman: And somehow there's this — you know, we've been sold this idea that you want to be empowered to create your own.

Gary Gulman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: But in reality, most people don't want that.

Gary Gulman: No. 

Dan Pashman: Like most of us ... 

Gary Gulman: I want to be shoved around. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. [LAUGHS] Right. Like it's stressful to have to make [Gary Gulman: Yes!] a lot of decisions. 

Gary Gulman: Yes.

Dan Pashman: People get flummoxed by the paradox of choice.

Gary Gulman: Totally. I have this idea of what my mentality would be like as a chef, and that I would be the type of chef that would look through the double doors out into the dining room. And if somebody was putting salt or pepper or anything, I would fly into a rage [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] and would have to be held back. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Wait, but that's like the equivalent of like people telling me they listen to my podcast on 1.5x speed.  

Gary Gulman: Oh! What an insult!

Dan Pashman: That's the equivalent of dumping a bunch of salt on the chef's entree. Can you imagine if someone put on one of your comedy specials?

Gary Gulman: Ugh.

Dan Pashman: And was like, I think it's better if I pause it every 30 seconds. No, like the timing is part of the thing. 

Gary Gulman: You're absolutely right. It's the same thing.

Dan Pashman: If you fast forward, or speed up the pauses, you're fucking with our timing! 

Gary Gulman: Yeah. Yeah, but you're also fucking with your own enjoyment and your own quality of life. And what are you getting from it? Another second to scroll in your stupid twee ... 

Dan Pashman: That's right. 

Gary Gulman: Twitter?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Gary Gulman: X

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]

Gary Gulman: Ugh. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: So Gary’s new comedy special takes on entitled Chipotle customers. But his most pointed commentary on class comes in a bit about the free breakfast program at school, where students were offered a choice between a variety pack size box of cereal, or a Pop-Tart.

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): The Pop-Tart was just a complete eff you to the poor kids who were eating it. First of all, it was just one Pop-Tart. I knew they came in packs of two. 

[AUDIENCE LAUGHING]

CLIP (GARY GULMAN): I’m poor, I am not stupid! And then the other thing about the Pop-Tart, they had enough frosting to spread it all the way to the edge. I’m sure there was a person in the factory who said, "Hey boss, we have a lot of extra frosting today. Do you want to spread it all the way to the edge for the next batch?" And he said, "Do you ever want these kids to ever stop sucking at the government teat? That bitter crust will remind them of what their futures are going to look like!”

Gary Gulman: I love it when something small can evoke an idea that's bigger than itself. For instance, the latest show, I thought, all right, Pop-Tarts are a very easy target. But the real thing for me with Pop-Tarts is that it's this really interesting class commentary. Certain jokes have to vie for a roster spot in your act. And so, if a joke is just surface, it's probably not gonna make it to the special, because I can write those all day long. They're very easy for me. But when a joke can talk about, okay, the Pop-Tart, but also talk about this thing where we've been ignored or slighted in some way, then it earns a roster spot because it's doing two things. 

Dan Pashman: What is your relationship with Pop-Tarts today, Gary? 

Gary Gulman: Oh, we don't ... We don't see each other. We don't have a — I mean, this is my — this thing of self denial, like I — sometimes I think my life is — and I really believe this. Since I've been feeling myself for the past six years, I think, man, is life so wonderful. And I have to dial it down a little bit, because if I were able to eat anything I wanted, it would be too pleasant and I would feel guilty and ashamed. [LAUGHS] So if I could eat sushi and French fries all the time, it would be decadence. I would be like the last days of the Roman empire. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: And do you think that comes from growing up poor or ...

Gary Gulman: Certainly, yeah.

Dan Pashman: Or battling depression or both? 

Gary Gulman: I mean, both the anxiety of growing up poor lends itself to depression and there's all these fears and it's a worry about your security. And capitalism has this great mechanism to keep everybody on their toes so that you keep having to hoard it because you don't know if there's going to be a rainy day or you'll find out that your business has gone obsolete.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: If you leave this interview with one feeling, Gary, I want it to be the feeling that you've made it. 

Gary Gulman: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: And so I bought you this box of Pop-Tarts. 

Gary Gulman: Oh, wow. This is awesome.

Dan Pashman: Now, I'm not going to tell you what to eat and not eat.

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But I would like to encourage you to have a Pop-Tart.

Gary Gulman: No, I will have one of these. Yeah, I definitely ... 

Dan Pashman: I think you've earned it.

Gary Gulman: Yeah. 

[LAUGHING] 

Gary Gulman: And I will toast it. I mean, I ate them raw when I was a ... 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Gary Gulman: When I was a kid. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: I want you to toast it, and I give you permission to enjoy it. 

Gary Gulman: I really appreciate it. Thank you.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC 

Dan Pashman: That’s Gary Gulman. His new special is streaming on MAX. It’s called Born on 3rd Base. Max is also where you can find The Great Depresh. And you can check out Gary’s memoir, which came out in September, it’s called Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the ‘80s.

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Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, we’re kicking off our series about the making of my cookbook. The series is called Anything’s Pastable, and episodes 1 and 2 drop on Monday March 4th. After listening to the series, I don't think you're ever gonna look at a cookbook the same way again. And in the meantime, please remember you can preorder the book right now at sporkful.com/book. 

Dan Pashman: While you’re waiting for those two episodes, check out last week’s show, when we play a part in a restaurant makeover. That’s up now.

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