Dan Pashman: You both have a nearly identical sentence in your respective cookbooks.

Khushbu Shah: Ohh. 

Edy Massih: Oh my god. 

Khushbu Shah: Let's hear it. 

Dan Pashman: Edy, you write, "Just remember, I'm not your Lebanese grandmother. So don't be surprised when you see fresh spins on Middle Eastern classics." 

Edy Massih: [LAUGHS] Yes.

Dan Pashman: Khusbu, you wrote, "The Grandma Disclaimer: Please remember that these are not your mom's or grandma's recipes."

Edy Massih: Thank you. 

Dan Pashman: So, Khushbu first, why did you feel it was important to have that disclaimer?

Khushbu Shah: I just want to get in front of all the haters, you know? Before they could like, really come for me. 

Edy Massih: I got you. Yeah. 

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, it's annoying. I don't know. Like, you write down your mom's recipes. 

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Edy Massih: People come into the store all the time and they're like, "Well that's not how my grandmother makes it.", or, "This is not how I grew up with it." I'm like, "Well, your grandmother's name is not outside.”

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies, it’s for eaters. I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Back in June, I was invited to Cookbook Fest in Napa. It was a three-day festival with cookbook authors and chefs, beautiful outdoor space with the mountains in the distance, great food and drinks — a ton of fun. I was there to do a panel about what it’s like to write your first cookbook. Since I had recently released my first cookbook, it was a great opportunity to hear how the experience was similar, and different, for other first-time cookbook authors, which was why I was so excited to speak with my two guests, Khushbu Shah and Edy Massih.  

Dan Pashman: Now, Khushbu and Edy come from very different parts of the food world. Khushbu was a food writer by training. She was the youngest person ever to become restaurant editor at Food & Wine Magazine, also the first person of color to hold that title. And her first cookbook, the one that I came to Napa to talk to her about, is called Amrikan: 125 Recipes From The Indian American Diaspora. 

Dan Pashman: Edy, on the other hand, trained as a chef at the Culinary Institute of America, then started his own catering business. Now he owns a beloved Lebanese deli in Brooklyn called Edy’s Grocer. His cookbook is called Keep It Zesty: A Celebration of Lebanese Flavor And Culture From Edy’s Grocer.

Dan Pashman: For both Edy, and Khushbu, their personal stories are a big part of their cookbooks, so in our conversation I first wanted to spend some time getting to know each of them. In the first half of this episode, we’ll cover their backstories. Then in the second half of this episode, we'll chat about their cookbooks. I started with Khushbu.

Dan Pashman: So, your parents emigrated from India, you grew up in Michigan in the '90s. What kinds of things did you grow up eating?

Khushbu Shah: Taco Bell. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Khushbu Shah: Like, so much, so much Taco Bell. I actually have a recipe for the "Taco Bell Mexican" pizza in my book, because at this point, Taco Bell is Indian food. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Khushbu Shah: And then my mom is a phenomenal Indian cook, so I actually grew up really spoiled. Quite frankly, my mom would make like, fresh dinners, almost every single night after coming home from work. And so it was a lot of, like, rice and yogurt and lentils and really wonderful stir-fried vegetables and the whole gamut of stuff. But mostly Taco Bell. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] But I gather — I mean, in Michigan in the '90s, there were not a ton of grocery stores where you could get the ingredients that your mom might have recognized from home.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah. Yeah, not at all. We would always have to go — I remember, like — I have cousins who live in Chicago and there's a street called Devon Street in Chicago, which is like a very, you know, "ethnic street". It has a lot of different, you know, types of shops and stuff there. And so, Chicago was kind of the largest metropolis that was close to us that would kind of have a lot of the supplies. And so, I remember any time we'd go to Chicago, we'd have to, like, clear the entire trunk, because my mom would just stock it [Dan Pashman: Right.] with groceries for the next, like, three, four, five months.

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Khushbu Shah: Like, I remember sometimes just, like, riding in the backseat, like, next to just, like, boxes of, you know, like, flour and lentils and mangoes, if they were in season. Yeah, not a lot of space for me, but a lot of space for mangoes. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: The lack of all of the ingredients that might have been available in India also led to a lot of, sort of workarounds, hybrids.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, a lot of adaptation.

Dan Pashman: Adaptations. 

Khushbu Shah: A lot of auntie hacks is what I like to call it. 

Dan Pashman: Yes. Yeah, so tell us about the auntie hacks.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, it's kind of amazing. I don't know like what Auntie Whisper Network there was, because this is like pre-WhatsApp, like pre-Facebook groups, but they all sort of figured out the same hacks, which is kind of amazing. Bisquick was always standard in my house, but not, never cause we made biscuits. 

Dan Pashman: Right, right. 

Khushbu Shah: Like if you take Bisquick, and mix it with milk powder, you get, like, really great gulab jamun mix. 

Edy Massih: Hmm. 

Khushbu Shah: Traditionally, gulab jamun is made by boiling milk down for, like, hours and hours and hours and hours until you get these, like, kind of really creamy milk solids. But you mix Bisquick and milk powder and suddenly you have like the best gulab jamun ever.

Edy Massih: That’s crazy.

Dan Pashman: You went to NYU. 

Khushbu Shah: That's true. 

Dan Pashman: You were pre-Med. 

Khushbu Shah: And also true. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: What happened? 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Where'd you go wrong, Khushbu?

Khushbu Shah: My parents ask that question every single day. 

[LAUGHING] 

Khushbu Shah: You know, I realized I didn't wanna be a doctor 110%. I feel like if you want to do that, you gotta like be all in. I don't know where I got this crazy idea that I was like, I should be a food writer, but, you know, you go to school in New York and everyone's doing all kinds of crazy things. And I had some professors, like, pull me aside, being like, "Why are you psych neurosci? Like, you can write!" And I  was like, "I don't know, sure, cool, let's do it." — ended up loving my English classes, and one thing led to the next, and here we are. But now my parents claim they never told me to go to medical school. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS[ 

Khushbu Shah: Which is like an incredible rewriting of history. 

Dan Pashman: But just so I'm clear, it's not like there was like a moment or an experience where you were like, oh my god, yes, food writing. It sounds like you more kind of stumbled into it.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, I always really liked it. I was part of that Food Network generation, like, I'd come home and watch, like, Ina and Giada and then go do my homework. And, like, if I wanted to make anything that wasn't Indian food, like, I had to make it myself because my mom was not gonna make it. And I just remember when I got my license for the first time, like, I'd go to the international market and buy every sauce. You know, I could find my mom still, like, yells at me to this day, she's like, "You ruined my pantry." I was like, "Mm, did I ruin it or did I upgrade it?". And so, you know, I've always been interested in cooking and food, and like the way that food is, like, such an interesting way into culture. Also, I'm so sorry my voice is so raspy. I'm coming off of a illness. This is really like, Sporkful After Dark vibes right now. Sorry. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Yeah, it's cool. Well do it. You worked at Eater, Thrillist, and others. In those first couple of years, what were you mostly writing about?

Khushbu Shah: Oh man, at Eater, I did this job where I basically blogged the blog. So like, it was that era where you'd write like 10, 12 stories a day. I remember like, I have this like weird catalog in my brain of every single thing that Starbucks released in that like two-year period, because I would have to write about every single like new Starbucks invention. 

Edy Massih: That's crazy. 

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, it's so funny. Or like, it was a weird era where everyone was experimenting with like, champagne drones, like delivering champagne via drones. But I have this like weird niche knowledge of it.

Dan Pashman: And in 2019, you became the restaurant editor Food & Wine magazine. You're the youngest person ever to hold that title. A big part of that job involves putting together the magazine's annual "Best New Chefs in America List". 

Khushbu Shah: Yup. 

Dan Pashman: Which is a very prestigious list for chefs to make. So what does that work involve on a practical level?

Khushbu Shah: Yes. You get Delta status really quick doing it. Yeah, basically I would just do loops around the country the entire year. I was just endlessly eating at restaurants around the country, trying to find all the best new chefs. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: That's one of those things where, like, on the surface people are probably like, oh my god, you fly around the country, you eat at great restaurants, that's amazing. But like, it's not all great.

Khushbu Shah: No. After a while you just want like Sweetgreen in your hotel room. Yeah, like in your bed. Like it's all you crave. It's a lot of like antacids, a lot of, yeah, Tylenol to get through it all. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Khushbu Shah: But yeah, incredible privilege to have done it. Yeah.

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Dan Pashman: All right, Edy? 

Edy Massih: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Let's turn to you, my friend. We were born and raised in the Lebanese town of, Anfeh, a small fishing village on the Mediterranean, about an hour north of Beirut. I know as you write in your book that a lot of your food memories are tied to your grandparents, Odette and Jacqueline. So tell me about them and the food that you grew up with in Anfeh.

Edy Massih: So I feel like both of my grandmothers just cooked all day. Like, that was their full time job. Like, that's all they did. And so ... And I grew up on top of my grandmother's house, Odette. So I felt like I hung out in that kitchen a lot. And then my other grandmother lived in Syria. So when we would go there, I would just hang out with her in the kitchen as well. So I got to see both sides, which were very, very different.

Dan Pashman: How so?

Edy Massih: Well, my grandmother that lived in Syria, like, grew up in Geneva and so she had a lot of French influence with the food that she used to make with a lot of Syrian influence as well. And my grandmother from Anfeh, because we grew up in a Greek Orthodox town, had a lot of Greek food as well. So there was, like, a mix of that. And so I feel like they were both very, very different.

Dan Pashman: So you're growing up in Lebanon, you have that influence, but then you had some summers that you spent — you got sent to summer camp in Geneva. 

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: So that must have been different.

Edy Massih: Very different.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Edy Massih: Very, very different. It was — well, the first thing is, like, growing up in Lebanon, we don't have electricity for 24 hours a day, and so that was the first time that I had, like, gone somewhere that had electricity for 24 hours a day, and that was very strange. And then outside of that, the food was very strange as well. I mean, we're not Muslim, but of course, Lebanon is mainly Muslim country, so there is not a lot of sausage and pork anywhere. And then you go to Switzerland, and there's literally sausage and pork hanging from every storefront.

Dan Pashman: Right. There’s like pigs walking into your shopping bag.

Edy Massih: Yeah, yeah, literally. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Edy Massih: Its, like, crazy. And I think also like the different amount of cheeses. Like, you know, there's halloumi, there's feta, there's Armenian string cheese, but, like, not [Khushbu Shah: Right.] a lot more cheeses.

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Edy Massih: And then you get there and it's like every kind of cheese you ever wanted. 

Dan Pashman: Having these varied influences, what impact did that have on you?

Edy Massih: I think it helped me now with how many, like, pop-ups and fusions that I do. We do a lot of Lebanese Mexican dinners. We've done a Lebanese Indian dinner. We've done, like, all sorts of fun mashups. And I think that at a young age, being able to taste that food kind of was like, "Wait, I wish I could, like, add my Lebanese to this."

Dan Pashman: I love that. So in 2004, when you were nine, because of unrest in the Middle East, you and your family moved to Boston.

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Tell me about that transition.

Edy Massih: It was hard. It was hard because I didn't speak a lick of English, and I don't shut up, and so I think that was probably the hardest part of it all, like not being able to communicate. So I think like, after a few years when I got English down, that helped a lot.

Dan Pashman: And in terms of what you're eating at home when you came to the U.S., what was the food at home?

Edy Massih: My mom didn't know how to cook. So it jumped a generation. 

Khushbu Shah: Oh wow. 

Dan Pashman: Ohh. 

Edy Massih: Because she was like — she worked all the time, you know, we had a nanny that cooked for us here and there, but it was mainly my grandmother that cooked for us. And so my mom didn't know how to cook. So when we moved here, I just started cooking because my parents were at work. So I just got into the kitchen and my parents were like, "How the hell do you know how to cook?", and I just — well, from watching my grandmother, just kind of got into it.

Dan Pashman: So, so you were kind of like teaching yourself just based on having hung out with your grandmother in the kitchen. 

Edy Massih: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Helped her here and there.

Edy Massih: Yes. And also like, Rachael Ray's 30 Minute Meals ... 

Khushbu Shah: Yes.

Edy Massih: And Ina Garten, and like Sandra Lee. 

Dan Pashman: So then what were you cooking?

Edy Massih: I was making Paula Deen's, like, burger in an S. Like, she had a burger in a Pillsbury dough.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Edy Massih: Like, I was making, like, Rachael Ray's, like, pasta pots. Like, I was not cooking a lot of Lebanese food. I learned a lot of skills, [Dan Pashman: Right.] and then I was just cooking, but we also didn't have the ingredients until later on, like, that's when we started cooking more Lebanese food.

Dan Pashman: Right. And what did your parents think? Like, they come home from work and you have, like, a burger wrapped inside … 

Edy Massih: They loved it. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Edy Massih: They honestly, they loved it.

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Edy Massih: Like, I would do a lot of, like, taco nights and things like that. Like the, I don't even know what that brand's called ... El Paso, I think? 

Dan Pashman and Khushbu Shah: El Paso, yeah.

Edy Massih: El Paso. We would get the taco kits and make that and they loved it. They appreciated it. 

Dan Pashman: So in 2012, you graduated high school and went straight to the Culinary Institute of America. Why was it so clear to you that's what you wanted to do? 

Edy Massih: I just — that's all I enjoyed was cooking. Like, I was — I loved being in the kitchen. That's what I really enjoyed. That's where I felt myself. I just didn't know anything better. You know what I mean? Like, that was it for me.

Dan Pashman: Right. So you get to culinary school, and quickly find that a lot of what they're teaching is kind of some pretty old fashioned European dishes and sauces. And then you get to the Middle Eastern unit [Khushbu Shah: Yes.] and what happens?

Edy Massih: I mean, they were really teaching Lebanese food so wrong, or Middle Eastern food so wrong. Like, they didn't call it — they called a tabbouleh a bulgur salad ... 

Khushbu Shah: Ohh. 

Edy Massih: Where tabbouleh is a parsley salad. But it wasn't just that, there were so many other things that were, like, just taught wrong. And I, you know, wanted to take action, and so I went and set up a meeting with my dean, and I was like, "You know, this is not this is not Lebanese food. This is not Middle Eastern food. This is totally different." And they were like, "Well, just remember where you are. This is the Culinary Institute in America, and you are in America, and everything is Americanized."

Khushbu Shah: Oh. 

Edy Massih: And I just felt something was wrong about that because I feel like, you know, they're teaching us how to make, like, veloute and the five mother sauces. Like, who the hell is making that nowadays? Nobody.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Edy Massih: I felt like the school was stuck in the '70s, and we were like, it's 2012. Like, come on. 

Khushbu Shah: I have a question. How many days was the Middle Eastern program?

[LAUGHING]

Edy Massih: So the Middle Eastern program was under Mediterranean. 

Khushbu Shah: Okay. 

Edy Massih: And each class is three weeks, and they spent three days on Middle Eastern. Yeah. There you go.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, three days should cover it. 

Edy Massih: Yeah. It's crazy.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] But that — it's interesting. So his response was in part like, this is the Culinary Institute of America. So they're saying, look, don't tell us what to do, we know what to do.

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: But also his response was, this is America. 

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Which is a pretty powerful statement about what he felt food in America is or was. 

Edy Massih: Yes. Yes.

Dan Pashman: So what did you take from that?

Edy Massih: I honestly learned a lesson because I think as now we've opened up the shop and a lot of my food is modernized or changed up a bit to make it make sense for my place in our kitchen, I've had to give it a modern twist and that is, to me, Americanizing it. So I have learned what that really means to him might mean differently to me because I feel like it's a culinary school and they should teach it the right way and then somebody could make it their own. But they're starting it off by not teaching it the right way. So I felt like that was wrong for college, but for me for now, I understand what Americanizing dishes means to me. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Edy Massih: And I am doing that, cause I have to.

Dan Pashman: I think that makes a lot of sense. So, you're in culinary school. Sophomore year, you do — you get sort of assigned to go work in a restaurant in Italy. After that sophomore year, you return home to Lebanon, and your grandmother Odette passed away. 

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: This is the one who lived below you.

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: You write in your book, the loss of a Lebanese grandmother is like no other. Can you explain that?

Edy Massih: I feel like, to me, it's like, a Lebanese grandmother holds together culture, food, childhood memories, food memories, and when you lose that, you lose that glue. Like, we have never sat together at a table as a family since she's been gone because there's nobody there to, like, make the food and bring us together because you listened to her. Like, if she said, 1 P.M. on a Sunday, you're sitting at that dining room table, the whole family was there. It's a loss in so many ways. But it's also a loss of food memories because my grandmother never wrote one thing down. Whenever I asked her for a recipe, it would be like, a handful of this, a like, Turkish cup of coffee of that. And I feel like those food memories were, like, huge to my whole family. 

Dan Pashman: Right. But you say that her death also helped you lean into other parts of your identity.

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. I feel like when I — I was so close to my grandmother I felt like I was hiding in the closet and didn't want to come out. She was very religious, and I felt like when she did pass, I felt like I could come out of the closet, but also I was able to, like, shed this fear of making her unhappy. And so, I was always worried of that and I didn't want to lose the bond that I had with her. And so, after she left us, I felt like I could do this now. Like, I could be who I want to be.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: You went to New York, you worked in Wine and Spirits Magazine. You worked as a server, a line cook, and then you started a catering business ... 

Edy Massih: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: In the basement kitchen of a building that you were living in. And that took off?

Edy Massih: Mm-Hmm.

Dan Pashman: Within — you got to a point, you were doing 18 events a week. 

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: How long before from the time you started to the time you were doing 18 events a week? 

Edy Massih: Three years. 

Dan Pashman: Three years? 

Edy Massih: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: And you were doing bar mitzvahs, weddings ... 

Edy Massih: I was doing 18 events by myself. I was nuts.

Dan Pashman: Yeah, that sounds, like, dangerous.

Edy Massih: It was dangerous. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Eight .. That's, that's ... That's according to my math, that's more than two events a day. 

Edy Massih: Yeah. It was like a breakfast, lunch, and then I would do, like, a delivery for dinner and then go do an in-person event.

Dan Pashman: Oh my God.

Edy Massih: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: I mean, three years is not nothing. That's — I mean, when you're living it, trying to start something three years feels like a long time. 

Edy Massih: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But like, you know, you had kind of been bouncing around professionally. 

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Like you hadn't really latched on to something, and then like, that must have felt like some real validation.

Edy Massih: Well, the whole drive behind it is because I came ... I came out to my parents and then they stopped talking to me. And that's when I started my own catering business. And I was, like, working in restaurants because my parents were, like, they — all they wanted me to become was, like, an executive chef at some restaurant. And so I was, like, doing it for them. And I think that's the guilt of, like, immigrant parents. 

Khushbu Shah: Mm-hmm. 

Edy Massih: It's, like, you always feel like you owe it to them. Everything that you do is for them. And so the, after I came out to them, they stopped talking to me. They completely cut me off. I was like, "Well, you know what? This is the time to do me and show them what I got." And so, they didn't talk to me for two years, [Khushbu Shah: Wow.] and those two years, I — like, all the anger I had towards them not talking to me, I took it out on, like, building my career and my catering business, and I think that's why it was successful, cause it came from a place, unfortunately, of hate and anger. And so, it made me want to do better at what I was doing. And so, yeah — so that, after that third year, they started talking to me again, and it was, like, almost a full circle. Like all right, like now, they see what I can do, and also, I'm like, you know, growing the business.

Dan Pashman: What precipitated them starting to talk to you again?

Edy Massih: My ... [LAUGHS] My 92-year-old grandfather in Lebanon sat them down.

Khushbu Shah: Wow.

Edy Massih: Yeah. Isn't that crazy? 

Dan Pashman: And he said ... 

Edy Massih: Like to my ... 

Dan Pashman: Get over it? 

Edy Massih: Yeah. To like, my parents were like, maybe 51 at the time, and I was like, that's so funny how this works.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Huh. That is — wow. 

Edy Massih: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: That's an amazing story. So off the success of your catering business, you open Edy's grocer in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. For folks who haven't been there, who haven't seen it, or for our audio listeners, just paint a picture.

Edy Massih: You can help me with this. It's just like a ... 

Khushbu Shah: It's so cute. 

Edy Massih: Thank you. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Khushbu, you won't be afraid to brag, so you tell us what it's like.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah. It's really ... It's really charming. It's very, like, colorful. There's a lot of dips that Edy makes in the house that like stocks the fridge with. There's all kinds of like, really beautiful goods from Lebanon and beyond. I actually — my key chain — I've been meaning to tell you ... 

Edy Massih: Aww. 

Dan Pashman: Is s a lemon key chain that I bought Edy’s grocer. Yeah. 

Edy Massih: I brought this back with me from Lebanon. 

Khushbu Shah: Yes. 

Edy Massih: Yeah. Yeah.

Khushbu Shah: And it's actually the key chain that I have for my house keys ... 

Edy Massih: Oh, cute.

Khushbu Shah: To this day. Yeah. 

Edy Massih: Oh, I love that. 

Khushbu Shah: Yeah. 

Edy Massih: Oh, that's so sweet. When we first opened, it was all to go — obviously, covid — and then now we have more of a sit down. We just got our beer and wine license and, like, it's more of, like, a deli luncheonette than, like, an actual sit down restaurant. But yeah.

Dan Pashman: Right. But people can get — there's a market. They can get prepared foods to go. 

Edy Massih: Oh yes. Dan Pashman: They can sit down and eat a sandwich or a ...

Edy Massih: We make 32 different homemade dips and pickled goods. 

Dan Pashman: Amazing. 

Edy Massih: Yep.

Dan Pashman: And you make them all in house? 

Edy Massih: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: And only you're allowed to make the hummus?

Edy Massih: Uh ... I know when I wrote that in the book it was true ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Edy Massih: But since Jordan started working at the grocer, who actually moved here from San Francisco ... Yeah, he's been making it ever since. 

Dan Pashman: How's he doing? 

Edy Massih: He's doing great. 

Dan Pashman: Okay, all right. 

Edy Massih: Yeah, he's doing amazing. 

Dan Pashman: All right. [LAUGHS]  

Edy Massih: I was like, I give this up. 

Khushbu Shah: We love learning to delegate. That's growth. 

Edy Massih: Yes, yes. 

Khushbu Shah: Yeah. 

Edy Massih: That's growth.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, Khushbu and Edy talk about what it was actually like working on their first cookbooks. Khushbu reveals her controversial take on salt, and Edy tells me about the biggest fight he had with his publisher. That’s coming up, stick around.

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+++BREAK+++

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. Last week’s show — oh, you got to check this one out. It's our annual game show, "2 Chefs and a Lie" episode! It's a once a year tradition where we line up three quote "Chefs". Two of them are real chefs, and one is a big ol' liar. My job is to figure out who is the liar, and I only get ask each of them five questions to figure it out. Best part of all? You get to play along too! Now, I’m usually very focused with my five questions, but sometimes things go off the rails, 

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): Next question, Sam. What is the cherry capital of the world?

CLIP (SAM): It's in Holland, Michigan.

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): I know Traverse City is the cherry capital of the world. 

CLIP (SAM): That's where the Cherry Festival is but they're not actually primarily grown in Traverse City. It's just because Traverse City is the tourist destination where they hold it.

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): You're telling me they're a fraud? You calling out Traverse City here, Sam? 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Can you spot the fake chef? Only one way to find out. Listen to the episode and play along. 2 Chefs and a Lie 2024 is up now. 

Dan Pashman: All right, let' let’s get back to my live conversation with Khushbu Shah and Edy Massih taped live at at Cookbook Fest in Napa. Now that we covered their backstories, I wanted to hear more about Khushbu’s and Edy’s cookbooks.

Dan Pashman: So, Khushbu, Amrikan: 125 recipes from the Indian American Diaspora, explain for folks who don't know, what is Amrikan?

Khushbu Shah: Amrikan is like how Indians say American, actually. So, you know, you're from Amerika, you're Amerikan. Yeah, and it's basically, America with a desi accent is like how I kind of like to say it. It explains the book pretty well. Yeah. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: You’re right. That is a good tagline for the book: American food with a Desi accent. 

Khushbu Shah: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Right. One of the recipes in your book that caught my eye and that I think represents the larger concept very well is the saag paneer lasagna.

Edy Massih: Oh.

Khushbu Shah: Oh. This is maybe my favorite recipe from the book. It's one of those ones when you like, you know, you develop a recipe and then you're like, "Damn, I'm a genius."? Like that's — yeah. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Khushbu Shah: So that was this one for me. I don't usually always feel that way, but this one I was like, "Ooh, like I really went off with it."

Dan Pashman: Yeah. [LAUGHS] 

Khushbu Shah: I'm very picky about lasagna. I have a lot of thoughts.

Edy Massih: Oh, wow.

Khushbu Shah: I don't love like a really ricotta-y, wet — I don't like wet lasagna. Like ugh. I love lasagna with like a lot of thin layers. 

Edy Massih: Mm.

Khushbu Shah: And I was thinking about this, like, spinach lasagna that I had once before and I was like, "Huh, wouldn't it be amazing if someone did this with like saag paneer?", and I was like, "Someone must have done this. Like no way. Is this the first time anyone is thinking of this thing?" So then I did like a literal, like, 72-hour deep dive of the internet where like I went through Pinterest and Instagram and TikTok and, like, look went through every cookbook on my shelf and could not find a version for the life of me.

Dan Pashman: I can't wait to cook it. It looks amazing. 

Khushbu Shah: Thank you. 

Dan Pashman: And my whole cookbook is non-traditional pasta dishes and pasta sauces. I reached out to you and consulted with you early on in my process, and two interesting things came of that conversation. One is that you said, "Indians living in diaspora cook a lot of pasta dishes."

Khushbu Shah: So much pasta. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: And I quoted you saying that in the book.

Khushbu Shah: Hey. 

Dan Pashman: In a section, in a little essay about sort of — because so many of the pasta dishes in my book are not Italian, and take influences from other parts of the world, and other cuisines in America. You also were the one who introduced me to Asha Loopy, my superstar — one of my superstar recipe developers.

Khushbu Shah: She’s amazing. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: The Saucy Spicetress was her nickname, and she developed I think the most number of recipes in the book, including a spinach and artichoke dip lasagna pinwheel dish. 

Khushbu Shah: Ooh.

Edy Massih: Oh, wow. 

Khushbu Shah: That sounds amazing.

Edy Massih: Wow. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, and it also solves for your issue, which I agree with, it's not drenched in ricotta. It's not super saucy. It's got like a lemon béchamel. 

Khushbu Shah: I love béchamel. 

Dan Pashman: I wanted ... I wanted a ... a lasagna that would be more acidic. 

Khushbu Shah: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: And a little bright, and a little fresh. 

Khushbu Shah: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: And not like a bowling ball in your stomach.

Khushbu Shah: Correct, and that's what this lasagna actually is.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. We should have, like, a lasagna collab.

Khushbu Shah: Throw down? Cook-off? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, .

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Khushbu Shah: No, let’s do it. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Khushbu Shah: That sounds like a good time.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. I'm gonna say an ingredient. You tell me how it's used in your cookbook.

Khushbu Shah: Okay. Wow, I love a pop quiz. 

Edy Massih: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Pop quiz, right? Lightning round. Here we go. Number one. Cream of wheat.

Khushbu Shah: Ooh, you can make upma, which is like a really great porridge type situation, if you can't find suji or semolina.

Dan Pashman: Dinner rolls.

Edy Massih: Oh.

Khushbu Shah: So, there's this thing called pav bhaji, which is like an Indian street food from Mumbai, but typically there's a pav. It's kind of more of like a ... it's from ... by a ... like a goat. You know, the Portuguese colonizers. They brought bread with them, but in America, hard to find. So, just use a lot of dinner rolls. Yeah, hamburger buns, griddled with a shit ton of butter, though. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Khushbu Shah: Very important. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: It’s like being in the streets of Mumbai. 

Khushbu Shah: Same thing. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Finally, peanut butter. 

Khushbu Shah: Peanut butter is my adaptation. It's kind of my evolution of my mom's kitchen. Like she always has kind of peanuts on hand, especially like, untoasted peanuts that she can do a lot with. I never have them on hand. What do I always have on hand? Peanut butter.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS[ 

Khushbu Shah: Because I'm like so deeply American in that way. And so to make one of my favorite chutneys, which is the cilantro mint chutney in the book, I use peanut butter. Because when you blitz peanuts in a blender anyways, it is peanut butter, right? 

Edy Massih: Right. 

Khushbu Shah: So I just use peanut butter and it has, like, the kind of nice toasty flavor. It gives the chutney the depth, the silkiness, the fattiness that you want, but you don't have to keep peanuts on hand. It's a vibe. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: There you go. So, Edy, your cookbook, Keep It Zesty: A Celebration of Lebanese Flavors & Culture from Edy's Grocer... On the surface, the book feels very much like a representation of Edy's Grocer. Because it's in the subtitle, and as soon as you open the book, there's a photo of the store. And a lot of the dishes that you — the mezzes and things that you serve in the store and the restaurant are in the book. To what degree is this a Lebanese cookbook, or is it an Edy and Edy's Grocer cookbook? How are you thinking about that?

Edy Massih: I definitely think it's a Lebanese cookbook just because there's the whole Middle Eastern staples section and I use all the Middle Eastern staples in mainly every recipe. There's some sort of Middle Eastern staple. I do think, like, Edy's Grocer is Lebanese, so I think it is all of that combined. It is a lot of recipes that we make at the Grocer, but it's a lot of recipes that I grew up with. There's a whole chapter called "Childhood Memories", [Dan Pashman: Right.] and that whole chapter is just recipes that I grew up with. Most of them we don't cook at the Grocer.

Dan Pashman: And you have two kibbehs in there. One is by each of your grandmothers, right?

Edy Massih: Yes. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: So tell me about those two.

Edy Massih: So, there's a three-layered kibbeh, which is what we make during the winter and then there's a one-layer, but then there's also the kibbeh balls, and a labneh broth. That's something that we have every year on New Year's because in Lebanon we have a tradition of eating like white food on New Year's to have like a prosperous year. And my grandmother would stuff them with olives, and then one of them was stuffed with Aleppo pepper and the person that got that one has a lucky year ahead. And so you would, like, open up the kibbeh ball and if it, you know, squirted red oil, then it was — you were the lucky person.

Khushbu Shah: I love that.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Edy Massih: Yes. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: That sounds like some sort of like a weird gender reveal.

Edy Massih: Yes. Kind of. Yes.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Khushbu Shah: Honestly, I'd be team kibbeh gender reveals. 

Edy Massih: Yeah. Right?

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, yeah.

Dan Pashman: Who needs a cake or like whatever ... 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. Let's normalize that.

Edy Massih: Yes. 

Khushbu Shah: Way safer. Go to Edy's grocer. If you want to — yeah, yeah. That's your new product. 

Edy Massih: A blue or a pink kibbeh.

[LAUGHING] 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: We gotta talk a little bit about salt.

Edy Massih: Oh, yes. 

Dan Pashman: Edy, you got a call from someone complaining.

Edy Massih: Oh, yes. 

Dan Pashman: Who said that there was too much salt in one of the recipes.

Edy Massih: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: But, and I assume that your staff member who answered that phone didn't explain this to them. But, probably what happened is that they didn't read the part of your book that said that you developed all your recipes using Diamond Crystal kosher salt. 

Edy Massih: Exactly. 

Dan Pashman: And they probably used …

Edy Massih: Table salt.

DAN: Table salt. 

Edy Massih: And so I ... 

Dan Pashman: Which is much saltier. 

Edy Massih: I nicely yelled at her on the phone.

Dan Pashman: Or even Morton. Morton kosher salt is almost twice as salty as Diamond Crystal. 

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: This — we spent half an episode in the series of my podcast with the making of my cookbook on salt because I agonized over the decision and I went with Diamond Crystal. The reason why I agonized over it was that I had the fear that what would happen to me is exactly what would happen to you, Edy. That someone would say, your recipe didn't work.

Edy Massih: Yep. Well, I wanted to write in every recipe, Diamond Kosher Crystal salt. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Edy Massih: But my editor did not let me.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Edy Massih: And I just really wish we did because nobody reads the beginning of the book. Like, I wrote a whole page about salt and salt usage and my tip on it. And no one's going to read that because people don't read, unfortunately.

Dan Pashman: Edy, why did you go with Diamond Crystal over Morton or something else?

Edy Massih: Well, that's what I, like, in college, that's what we used. And I also think it is, like, the best salt. So I — yeah, I just was used to it. I knew how to cook with it.

Dan Pashman: Khushbu ... 

Khushbu Shah: You ... In your book, you have a different perspective.

Khushbu Shah: Very different.

Edy Massih: Oh, what's your salt of choice? Ooh. 

Dan Pashman: So? 

Khushbu Shah: I'm very anti salt of choice. I'm like anti salt snobbery. I don't care. Just use it. And like, taste your food. Like, that is like, quite literally my theory on it. Just use salt. Yeah. Yes.

Dan Pashman: But there's a ... There's a wide variation in the salinity from table salt to Diamond Crystal [Khushbu Shah: Sure.] and everything in between. You weren't worried that people were gonna get bad results?

Khushbu Shah: You know, my mom always jokes that one of the ingredients in my recipe should always just be common sense. And like, this is [Edy Massih: Yes.] actually where I agree with her on it. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Khushbu Shah: Like, at a certain point, I mean, I do say in all of my recipes, like, you have to taste the stuff, right? So, like, and everyone's salt preferences and like, salt levels are different. Like, my mom loves food much saltier than I do. Like, even while I'm using the same salt, like, she'll have a different measurement for it. So, I don't know. I don't care. Just use it. You know, use whatever salt you have on hand and just taste your food. Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Khushbu Shah: Sorry, Edy. [LAUGHS] 

Edy Massih: No, I ... I agree. I mean, people should ... I hated ... That was the worst part of the book, was writing how much salt to put in a recipe. 

Khushbu Shah: Yeah. 

Edy Massih: Because I love salt. Some people don't. Like, my dad doesn't, and he always finds my food salty. And I'm like, well, I'm sorry, but this is how I like my food.

Dan Pashman: I know that when you make any kind of book, but especially a cookbook, the cover is always [Edy Massih: Oh my god.] of primary interest. The publisher has a lot of opinions about the cover. And people do judge a book by its cover. 

Edy Massih: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: So, uh, Edy, you first. First of all, for folks who can't see it, describe the cover of your book and tell me why you like it and what you're trying to communicate with it.

Edy Massih: I can't believe we're going here.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Edy Massih: I fought so hard for this cover. My cover, I feel like, is a lot of different mezzes, a lot of foods, it invites people. I think it's all Lebanese food and mezze is all about inviting people around the table and that's my whole philosophy. 

Dan Pashman: It's a big spread. 

Edy Massih: Yes, it's a big spread. 

Dan Pashman: A bunch of different bowls, hands coming in and dipping.

Edy Massih: Exactly, and so originally the cover was supposed to be me in front of the shelves. And we spent four hours on that shot, and then they nixed that idea when they were designing the book, which I was totally fine with, cause I was, I wanted it to be food, but then it was supposed to be the summer fattoush salad. And I did not want it to be the fattoush salad because I was like, well, this is not a salad book. This is a cookbook. We're doing hot cooking here. Let's not put a salad on the front. It just also felt like very basic and they really wanted that cover on there. And it was, like, a actual fight back and forth and then I went behind my publisher's back and I reshot the cover without them knowing, and ... 

Khushbu Shah: Ooh, spicy. 

Edy Massih: Yes. 

Khushbu Shah: Keep it zesty, Edy!

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] 

Edy Massih: Uh-huh. And then I sent it to them and I was like, this is the cover and it was the cover.

Khushbu Shah: Wow. 

Dan Pashman: And what did they say?

Edy Massih: They made it the cover. They were — well, my agent called me and was like, "I'm just so unimpressed with you and how you did this. Like, you should have not gone without our back. We could have fought for you," and I was like, well, you weren't. So here we are.

Dan Pashman: And what are they saying now?

Edy Massih: I mean, I love the cover and I think people are loving the cover. They're very happy with it. And I think, like, I needed my pink and green on the cover and the salad that was on a tablecloth that was blue and white and just didn't make sense for my brand. And so, I think they're happy now. They're probably not going to be happy when they listen to this, but it's okay.

Dan Pashman: Khushbu, describe the cover of your book and, and why you wanted it as it is.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, I am like one of the rare American authors that actually has an illustrated cover, which is a very common, like, British cookbook thing. I'm always very jealous of British cookbook covers. And, you know, my publisher was actually, like, very on board with me doing something illustrated. Because we didn't feel like there was a singular photo that, like, really encapsulated what this book was like. You know, it's the same thing. Like, one salad doesn't really tell the story of this. 

Edy Massih: No. 

Khushbu Shah: There wasn't, like, a singular dish that really felt, like, this is American. And you know, so there's a big part of the book is also about the objects of the diaspora, like these cultural touch points, these kind of, like, in jokes that the diaspora has, which is that, like, if you open any yogurt container in the fridge, it probably doesn't have yogurt in it. And so, we went with, like, an illustrated cover, kind of, like, celebrating, you know, those moments in the diaspora. 

Dan Pashman: And the front has like a, an illustration of like a Indian yogurt container ...

Khushbu Shah: With samosas in it .

 Dan Pashman: Samosas in it, right. And then there's a ... 

Khushbu Shah: A cup of chai and and a Corel cup. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Khushbu Shah: And like, you know, some curry leaves. Yeah.

Dan Pashman: A little bit of everything.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah.

Khushbu Shah: And then the back cover, though, might be my favorite.

Edy Massih: The back cover is hilarious.

Dan Pashman: Yes. 

Khushbu Shah: That is my dad on the back cover.

Edy Massih: And it says, “Khushbu did not go to medical school, so please buy this book.” [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHING] I thought that was the best thing I've ever seen. I died at that. 

Dan Pashman: I also love the photo — he's like drinking a cup of tea and like looking off, like ... 

Edy Massih: It's genius. 

Dan Pashman: He's looking off, like, as if he's dreaming about a better life ahead.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, my dad is a total ham. If you ever meet him, he'll happily sign the back of your book with his four part signature. Four parts. It's kind of amazing. Yeah.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: I'd like to hear from each of you on these last couple of questions. What advice would you give to someone else who's just setting out to write their first cookbook? Edy, you first. 

Edy Massih: It has to come from the heart. And work on that marketing strategy earlier than you think. Like, the earlier you work on it, the better, cause it's on you to sell it.

Khushbu Shah: Yeah, the marketing strategy, that one is real. Like, I — that was actually the biggest piece of advice I got going into it. I was very lucky to have a bunch of friends who have written cookbooks, and that was the one thing that everybody told me, was that you are always gonna be able to market your book better than any publisher ever will.

Dan Pashman: Final question. For both of you, your own personal stories and journeys are very much embedded in your cookbooks. What's something that you learned about yourself through the process of writing your first cookbook that you didn't know or understand before?

Khushbu Shah: Oh, wow. Deep, deep questions, Dan Pashman.

Edy Massih: I would say there's two things I've learned. A, how many stories I have in my brain, and how many, like, food memories I have that I could, like, just put on a page. When I was writing the introduction of my book, it was like 32 pages, and my editor was like, "We gotta cut this down to two," and I said, "No, we're not gonna do that."

Khushbu Shah: Thirty-two? 

Edy Massih: Yes, and then we cut it down to twelve, so that was — I — and those are for the next books, but yeah. So I think that was huge and I think throughout this process of like, marketing and doing the tour and all that jazz, I've learned a lot about myself and like, differentiating myself from my business and I'm a person and a personality and not just my business. And I think that was a really big thing for me to learn because for years I've identified as Edy's Grocer and I'm actually Edy Massih, not Edy's Grocer. So that took me a long time to differentiate between me and a business, where I just have always thought myself as a walking business.

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Khushbu Shah: You know, I'm gonna toot my own horn and say I'm a kick ass recipe developer and I didn't know that about myself, quite frankly, going into this process, because historically my career has always been reporting and writing about cultural stuff, restaurant stuff. Things like that, and not quite in the recipe development front. But like, I was honestly very surprised at myself with like, how well everything was like turning out, yeah, on the first go. Yeah. [LAUGHS}  

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: That was Khushbu Shah, her cookbook is Amrikan: 125 Recipes From The Indian American Diaspora, and you can check out her newsletter called “Tap Is Fine.” And Edy Massih, his cookbook is called Keep It Zesty: A Celebration of Lebanese Flavor And Culture From Edy’s Grocer, and if you are in the Greenpoint neighborhood of Brooklyn, definitely check out Edy’s Grocer. 

Dan Pashman: And listen to this, we're giving away a copies of both of these excellent cookbooks. Want to enter our giveaway?  All you have to do is sign up for The Sporkful’s newsletter by August 19th, and you’ll be entered to win. If you’re already on our mailing list, you’re already entered. When you're on our mailing list, you get entered into tons of contest and giveaways. Plus, we'll drop you a ling once in a while, send you recipes, pics, links, great stuff. You want to be on this list. The contest is only open to U.S. and Canada addresses, but anyone can sign up for the newsletter right now at sporkful.com/newsletter. Get on that lis!

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, we look back to a moment in history when celery was more precious than caviar. It was a time when some of the best chefs in the country were making mashed celery, fried celery, and even celery tea. So why did celery fall from grace? And can this once vaunted vegetable make a comeback? We’ll find out next week.

Dan Pashman: WHile you wait for that one, make sure you check out last week's show. Our annual “2 Chefs and A Lie" game show episode. I try to spot the fake chef, you play along with me. It's a lot of fun. That one's up now.