Dan Pashman: Today we’re launching a new series, the behind the scenes story of a major project I’ve been working on. At times it’s consumed my whole life, and even involved my kids …

CLIP (EMILY PASHMAN): It's, like, you know, you said it would take like maybe two or three years to do the cookbook, but I thought it would take longer.  

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): You thought it would take ... But two or three years is a very long time.  

CLIP (EMILY PASHMAN): Yeah, but, like, there's a lot of stuff to do. Like you have to like find recipes and you have to make them, take pictures of it, and you have to publish it. And also you're doing a lot of recipes, so that's gonna take a long time.

MUSIC

[COOKING AMBI]

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): All right, this is not going as well as I’d hoped. The sauce has completely cooked off and burnt. The pan is black and there are pieces of pasta that are broken off and fused to the bottom of the pan. Becky, how would you describe how this looks?

CLIP (BECKY PASHMAN): This kind of looks like a cry for help.

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): [LAUGHS]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it's not for foodies it's for eaters, I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. And yes, it’s true. I have written a cookbook! Writing a book has always been a dream of mine, and this one has been years in the making — and it comes out in just two weeks! 

Dan Pashman: When I started working on this cookbook, the most common question I got from friends was, “How do you actually come up with the recipes?” I realized that most people, even folks who buy a lot of cookbooks, don’t know much about how they’re made — as I found out, neither did I.

Dan Pashman: Until I did it, I had no idea just how painstaking the process is, how many thousands of tiny decisions would be required, and how many things could go wrong. That’s why today, we're launching Anything’s Pastable, a four-part series about the making of my cookbook. In this series, I'm going to take you inside the process from the highs and lows of recipe testing, to a research trip across Italy, to the agonizing decisions over the design of the cover. By the end, you'll never look at a cookbook the same way again.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Before we get to the book though, a quick recap of how I got here. In 2021, I invented a new pasta shape, cascatelli. I spent three years developing it and finding people to help me manufacture and sell it. We did a 5-part podcast series that tells the story of that quest, it’s called Mission: ImPASTAble and it’s in your podcast feed now, if you want to check it out. This new series is sort of a sequel to that one, but don’t worry, you don’t have to listen to Mission: ImPASTAble to enjoy this series.

Dan Pashman: Anyway, cascatelli was way more successful than I ever dreamed. It went viral, getting media coverage across the country …

CLIP (PERSON 1): Uh, apparently, there's a new pasta that has come out. So, like, bye bye spaghetti ...

CLIP (PERSON 2): So cascatelli sold out within two hours of being available online. All 3,700 boxes ...

CLIP (PERSON 3): Called cascatelli ... Casca-catelli .... We can't pronounce it but ...

Dan Pashman: And getting attention from around the world …

CLIP (PERSON 4): [SPEAKING ITALIAN]

CLIP (PERSON 5): [SPEAKING ITALIAN]

CLIP (PERSON 6): [SPEAKING ITALIAN]

CLIP (PERSON 7): The creator claims he's not trying to destroy pasta, he's just trying to start fights …

Dan Pashman: Cascatelli ended up being named one of Time Magazine’s Best Inventions of 2021 and being featured on the cover! It’s now in stores across the country. And the most rewarding part? Sporkful listeners started sending me photos from all over the country and the world, showing me what they were making with cascatelli. I felt like people were inviting me into their homes for dinner.

Dan Pashman: But there was a problem. 75% of the pics I received showed cascatelli with tomato sauce, meat sauce, or mac and cheese. A few party animals made pesto. Add in other well-worn classics, like carbonara and cacio e pepe, and that was 95% of what I saw.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: To me, this was tragic. Cascatelli works with so many sauces! And beyond cascatelli, it just made me sad that so many people were choosing from such a limited range of pasta sauces. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: In late 2021, after nine months of seeing these pictures in my inbox and on Instagram, I have an idea. I love that my cascatelli journey got so many other people to nerd out on pasta shapes with me. What if I could do the same for pasta sauces, and show folks that there are so many more things they can and should be putting on pasta? What if I were to write a cookbook that would help people break away from bolognese? 

Dan Pashman: After a few months of letting the idea simmer, I think I have a cookbook concept that’ll work. I start making some calls. My first is to Evan Kleiman  my pasta fairy godmother and spiritual advisor throughout my cascatelli journey. Evan ran a successful Italian restaurant in L.A. for 25 years, and she's traveled to Italy almost every year since the '70s, so she knows Italian food. As I say to Evan … 

Dan Pashman: There are so many really great Italian pasta preparations that are very simple and yet are still not well known in the U.S. Do you think that's fair to say?

Evan Kleiman: Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to say. I think that if you look at cookbooks, you find the same 50 over and over and over again.

Dan Pashman: I’m thinking that there must be amazing pasta dishes in Italy that are unknown to many Americans, that I could highlight. Right? And there are probably others that I could bring a new perspective to, put my own spin on. I explain all this to Evan.

Dan Pashman: I'm not looking to do super fancy. I'm not having anybody make homemade pasta from scratch. Just basically things, like open up a can of good tuna and with capers and lemons, or ...

Evan Kleiman: Okay, so ...

Dan Pashman: Or take some fresh artichokes.

Evan Kleiman: So this has all been ... So this has all been done, so, I don't think that you would be covering ground that hasn't been covered before.

Dan Pashman: But I also feel like maybe people who come to a cuisine as outsiders might feel less beholden to tradition.

Evan Kleiman: I think you're absolutely 100% wrong.

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Evan says she’s seen a lot of supposed outsiders write books about Italian food. But instead of bringing a fresh perspective, they just end up falling in love with Italian traditions and nostalgia — and they end up very much beholden to those traditions. So that's something I need to watch out for as I write this book. But as I explain to her, Italy is only one part of my book idea.

Dan Pashman: There's a second part of the book where I want to expand beyond Italian food and play with other cuisines. Like, what else can we put on pasta? Why can't we put dal on pasta? Why can't we make spicy chili crisp pesto? Let's bring together all these different flavors. So that's also a big part of the concept. What do you think about the idea of incorporating other cuisines, sort of sauces, stews and condiments, and putting them on pasta?

Evan Kleiman: I think you must. You're an explorer. People are going to expect from you to open the door to the unexpected — and the way you disregard tropes and myths and that's what people expect of you.

Dan Pashman: But in order to go beyond those tropes and myths, I need to learn what they are. Before you can start doing jazz improvisation, you need to know the standards, right? I barely know which end of the saxophone to blow into. Even though I’ve been hosting The Sporkful for 14 years, I literally have no professional culinary training, whatsoever. So I'm going to need to do some research on Italian food, what cookbooks are already out there, what seems ripe for adding my own twist. And this is where Evan can help me.

Evan Kleiman: You know what I'm going to do, you know what I'm going to do is I'm going to give you a list ...

Dan Pashman: Okay.

Evan Kleiman: Of cookbooks from different regions that have been written in English ...

Dan Pashman: Okay.

Evan Kleiman: That I think were written by real people with no agenda but to preserve these recipes.

Dan Pashman: Okay. Am I allowed to tinker with those at all?

Evan Kleiman: What do you mean?

Dan Pashman: Well, like what if I want to serve one of the traditional sauces but with a shape that I think would be better?

Evan Kleiman: Well, that's your brand. Instead of showing the traditional recipe, and then a variation for something different, you will start with the Dan Pashman weirdness, and then you'll explain the traditional one. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Right. So I can be like, listen, usually they do linguine with white clam sauce, but linguine is trash. No one should ever eat it, and you should have Mafalda with white clam sauce instead.

Evan Kleiman: Ugh.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Sounds like I already sold one copy!

Evan Kleiman: Oh yeah.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Thank you, Evan, my pasta fairy godmother, you're always there for me.

Evan Kleiman: I mean, of course, now I'm totally curious.

Dan Pashman: You want to contribute a recipe to the cookbook?

Evan Kleiman: I don't know. I need to think about it. I definitely want acknowledgments.

Dan Pashman: Oh, you got it. You will be acknowledged. Don't worry.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Coming out of this conversation, the basic question seems to be: Do I know enough about pasta sauces to be able to come up with any interesting ones? I call up my mom, hoping that she'll have some words of wisdom. Her reaction to my book concept?

Linda Pashman: If you ever looked up the pasta preparations in The New York Times, all those things are there. I mean, there's noodles with chili crisp. Or there's cauliflower — or just ricotta cheese and lemon zest. There are, like, a lot of different kinds of pasta preparations that do appear.

Dan Pashman: So you're saying I should just abandon my whole concept?

Linda Pashman: No, I think it's going to be challenging [DOGS BARKING] — oh, here's Dad, so now the dogs are going to go crazy. Um ...

Dan Pashman: All right, well, I'm gonna go, but thanks for the vote of confidence. 

Linda Pashman: [LAUGHS] No, I'm not — look, it does remind me that so many people who saw you on The Today Show, everybody wants to make the mushroom ragu because they don't think of putting mushrooms on pasta like that.

Dan Pashman: That's what I'm trying to tell you!

Linda Pashman: Yeah, sure.

Dan Pashman: You just validated the concept of my book. 

Linda Pashman: Well, I don't know if that's going to sell a book though.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Linda Pashman: You could sell a pamphlet, but not necessarily a book.

Dan Pashman: That is more skepticism than I was expecting from my mom. But it occurs to me that these are the same doubts I heard when I set out to invent cascatelli. It’s all been done. There’s nothing new to add. Fortunately, I feed off the doubters. So you know what I’m gonna do? I'm going to make this cookbook.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Because of the success of cascatelli and The Sporkful’s long history, I’m able to get a literary agent, who helps me write a book proposal that includes some sample writing and a list of proposed recipes. But we quickly hit a bump. The first publisher I go to is Simon & Schuster — they published a book I wrote ten years ago called Eat More Better. Because that book didn’t do very well, the editor there says the higher ups won’t approve a solid offer. Basically, they’re not willing to take another chance on me. 

Dan Pashman: Other publishers didn’t have a front row seat to my literary failure, so some of them do make good offers. I sign on with William Morrow, part of HarperCollins, one of the big publishers. In Spring 2022, I'm ready to actually start writing my cookbook.

Dan Pashman: There's just one small issue. While I have lots of opinions about what I like and don’t like to eat, and I often think about the minutiae of the eating experience, I've never written and published a single real recipe in my life. So I’m gonna need some help.

Dan Pashman: Fortunately, there are people who specialize in providing the exact kind of help I’m looking for, and they are called recipe developers. Now, some cookbook authors are themselves recipe developers — so they write all the recipes for their books. In other cases, the author is bringing their vision and perspective, but collaborating with developers to turn those ideas into workable recipes. A lot of the cookbook authors we’ve interviewed here on the show are recipe developers. One of the first people I get connected to is Rebeccah Marsters. 

Dan Pashman: Have you ever worked in a restaurant?

Rebeccah Marsters: Not back of house.

Dan Pashman: Okay.

Rebeccah Marsters: I've worked service.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Rebeccah Marsters: But that was never my — that was never my vision. I always knew that that was not the environment for me.

Dan Pashman: Why?

Rebeccah Marsters: Just too high pressure. They say, you know, if it's too hot, get out of the kitchen. And I just never went in there cause I knew it was going to be too hot for me.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Yeah. Right, right. 

Rebeccah Marsters: So I'm much more of a cerebral, precise — I was more interested in the writing and the kind of the, I don't know, the nerdy stuff. You know, I'm not that like fly by the hip kind of cook. I’ve always been very … 

Dan Pashman: Got it. So, so you're less interested in like, let's raid the pantry and throw stuff in a pan and light it on fire, and ...

Rebeccah Marsters: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: You're much more like, I want a lot of spreadsheets.

Rebeccah Marsters: I much more like, this is a dish that I could plan to make two weeks from now.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Rebeccah Marsters: Let me out together a prep list and research which wine I should serve with it.

Dan Pashman: Rebeccah did go to culinary school at Johnson and Wales before she ended up in media. For many years, she was a test cook and editor at America’s Test Kitchen, which is famous for their painstaking approach to recipe development.

Dan Pashman: Over the years, Rebeccah has seen every way a recipe can go wrong for a home cook. Because the part of recipe writing that’s most stressful is that your one recipe is going to be used by people with different levels of cooking experience in different kitchens with different equipment. 

Rebeccah Marsters: I know that the way I am is an asset when it comes to making recipes foolproof, because my main goal is I don't want somebody to fail at home and be discouraged, and I want people to have confidence in cooking and give them the tools to do that.

Dan Pashman: As soon as Rebeccah and I get in touch, she's sending me long emails with ideas and questions. In one email she writes, “Apologies if I threw too much at you at once — I’m a details person!” And I was like, "You're hired!", because I, too, am a details person.

Dan Pashman: Rebeccah will not be a recipe developer, though. She’ll be the book’s recipe editor — basically, like the team captain. She’ll refine and cross test every recipe that the developers and I come up with — a final line of defense against kitchen disaster.

Dan Pashman: She’ll also create a style guide for the book, which will be very important. Because I’m going to be working with multiple developers, literally a lot of cooks in the kitchen, but I need all the recipes to be written the same way, so the book is consistent. As Rebeccah starts drafting the style guide, it forces me to consider approximately one million details I had never considered before. For example ...

Rebeccah Marsters: When I'm writing a recipe, I am a — definitely an advocate for writing out the whole word "teaspoon" or the whole word "tablespoon". 

Dan Pashman: Rebeccah says she’s seen a lot of people who misread "tsp" or "tbsp" because they look so similar at a glance, and then it ruins their recipes. So okay, fine. We’ll write out teaspoon and tablespoon. One small detail resolved.

Dan Pashman: One more important thing, Rebeccah, we've got to figure out, what kind of salt are we going to use?

Rebeccah Marsters: Oof. That's the ...

Dan Pashman: This is a big question, huh?

Rebeccah Marsters: It's the big question. It's ... You know, people have strong feelings about salt.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Rebeccah Marsters: And for good a reason!

Dan Pashman: And I mean, first and foremost, different types of salt have different levels of saltiness, so one teaspoon of one type of salt, you wouldn't be adding as much salt as you would with a teaspoon of a different type of salt.

Rebeccah Marsters: Yes, correct. And a lot of that is about grain size, right? If you think about, like, filling the jar with golf balls and then filling it with marbles and then filling it with sand, right? The grain size makes a difference. You can fit more granules of table salt into a teaspoon than you can a larger grain. 

Dan Pashman: And it’s not just grain size that affects saltiness — it’s also shape. Some salt crystal shapes have more surface area than others, so more of the salt lands on your tongue and you register it as saltier. Most recipes I see these days call for kosher salt. But there are two totally different brands of kosher salt out there: Morton and Diamond Crystal.

Dan Pashman: And Morton is almost twice as salty as Diamond Crystal. So if you see a recipe that just calls for kosher salt, and you use a different brand than the recipe writer had in mind, your dish will come out either too salty or too bland. This issue could make you think that every recipe in my cookbook sucks.

Dan Pashman: And in the food world, Morton vs. Diamond Crystal is one of the great feuds of all time. It’s Yankees vs. Red Sox. Montagues vs. Capulets. People who slice their sandwiches in half diagonally vs. serial killers. And as I tell Rebeccah …

Dan Pashman: I use Diamond Crystal salt at home.

Rebeccah Marsters: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: Between those two.

Rebeccah Marsters: And I use Morton salt at home.

Dan Pashman: Oh.

Rebeccah Marsters: [LAUGHS] I just feel like Diamond Crystal, I don't get as even of a sprinkle when I use it. Morton feels right to me when I pick up a pinch of salt.

Dan Pashman: I don't have any sprinkling issues like you. 

Rebeccah Marsters: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: You may just be sprinkling wrong, Rebeccah, that's also something you should take into account.

Rebeccah Marsters: That's true. I don't know. Maybe you can send a video of you sprinkling and I’ll ...

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Did they have a salt sprinkling course at Johnson and Wales? Maybe you were absent that day.

Rebeccah Marsters: Maybe I missed that day. I must have been playing hooky. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Morton might feel right to Rebeccah, but Diamond Crystal feels right to me. I also agree with Samin Nosrat, chef and author of Salt Fat Acid Heat, who swears by Diamond Crystal because it dissolves faster, which reduces the risk of oversalting. And because Diamond Crystal is less salty, you can use more of it, so it’s easier to coat your food evenly.

Dan Pashman: Problem is, Morton is much more widely available in grocery stores than Diamond Crystal. And I’m very worried about calling for a salt that many people can’t get, then you’d have to convert your measurements, which would force you to do math, which is the worst thing that could happen.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, I involve hundreds more people in this decision about grains of salt, and I start working on some recipes. Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I'm Dan Pashman. And if you're listening to this journey and thinking, I'd love to see some photos and videos from all that," well, good new. I'll be sharing photos and videos of the journey on my Instagram throughout this series. Please make sure you check that out. Follow me there, @TheSporkful.

Dan Pashman: Okay, I've found my team captain, Rebeccah. But I still need to assemble the rest of my group of recipe developers. The folks I pick will not just carry out my vision, they'll be my collaborators. I need to find people who are not only talented but also bring different specialties to the project. I feel like I’m assembling a squad of superheroes for the most difficult mission of our lives — or maybe just of my life. For them this is just what they do.

Dan Pashman: Anyway, after a couple months of scouring food media for the best and brightest, I have my team in place. In June 2022, the whole group meets over Zoom. I ask them all to introduce themselves and their specialty, and to pick a superhero name. 

Dan Pashman: First up: We have Asha Loupy, who develops recipes for the South Asian spice company Diaspora Co:

Asha Loupy: My name would be The Saucy Spicetress. A lot of my recipes are going to lean towards the interesting ways to use spices.

Dan Pashman: Asha Loupy: Saucy Spicetress!

[KNIFE SLICE SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: Then there's Katie Leaird, who has lived and cooked professionally in Italy.

Katie Leaird: In my heart of hearts, I am a really old Italian grandma. So I think I'm like Super-Nonna. I mean, the funny thing is I'm not actually Italian at all and I'm 38. But I think what I bring is just kind of that old school sensibility. 

Dan Pashman: Katie Leaird: Super-Nonna!

[KNIFE SLICE SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: Then there’s James Park, who was on The Sporkful last fall, talking about his chili crisp cookbook. James' specialty for my cookbook?

James Park: Taking really delicious dishes and to just like pastify it. I really enjoy kind of translating some of my favorite dishes that I eat globally, and just kind of interpret it into a pasta. So I will be the Pasta Translator.

Dan Pashman: James Park, Pasta Translator!

[KNIFE SLICE SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: We've also got Darnell Reed, chef and owner of Luella’s Southern Kitchen in Chicago:

Darnell Reed: I'm definitely gonna bring a lot of, I would say, American, but definitely Southern American. So, I'll be the Southern Soul Guy.

Dan Pashman: We decide that Darnell is the Soulfood Sauce Boss!

[KNIFE SLICE SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: And finally, we have Irene Yoo:

Irene Yoo: I don't know if anyone's seen Ocean's Eleven or Twelve or Thirteen ...

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Irene Yoo: But, I wanna be the Brad Pitt character, who is always standing in the corner eating. My specialty is really like figuring out like connecting like all the different comfort food aspects of different cultures.

Dan Pashman: That’s Irene Yoo: Comfort Food Brad Pitt.

[KNIFE SLICE SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: Along with Captain Rebeccah, our team is in place. Now, we have a huge decision to make. None of these folks can put a pot on the stove, or pen to paper, until we know what kind of kosher salt we’re using. As I said, I typically use Diamond Crystal at home, but Morton is in more stores around the country. So I decide to try out Morton for myself.

Dan Pashman: Let's just pour it out into a little bowl here. 

[SPRINKLING SALT] 

Dan Pashman: I mean, that is coarse. Let's look at it next to the Diamond Crystal. The Morton almost feels like sprinkles — it feels weird. It feels pebbly.

Dan Pashman: The Morton, to me, looks like the salt you’d put on your driveway when it snows. I try sauteeing some mushrooms with it ...

[SAUTEING]

Dan Pashman: I just added the Morton salt, and it, like, bounces. Some pieces have landed on the cast iron pan and bounced up. I don't want my salt bouncing around. It's supposed to land on the food and stay there. 

Dan Pashman: I really want to go with Diamond Crystal. But as I say to my wife Janie after dinner …

Dan Pashman: I'm having a crisis of confidence. If more people can get Morton, and that's more standard, then maybe I should just go with that.

Janie Pashman: Is that ... Which one is stronger? 

Dan Pashman: Morton.

Janie Pashman: Hmm.

Dan Pashman: But I like Diamond Crystal, personally. I just like the way it feels in your hand. 

Janie Pashman: It doesn't matter what it feels like in your hand. What tastes better? What makes the recipe better? 

Dan Pashman: Well, it doesn't matter. All right, it doesn't matter what it feels like in your hand. I'm going to go consult someone else. I love you, but not for this. [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: I decide to do an Instagram poll, to consult with you, Sporkful listeners. The next day ...

Dan Pashman: All right, the poll results are in. I got DMs from a number of established cookbook authors telling me how they had agonized over this exact decision. This is a big issue that really, like, keeps cookbook authors up at night, because cookbook authors want the readers to succeed when they make the recipes. On Instagram, 68% for Diamond Crystal. I made the decision. For my cookbook, I’m going with Diamond Crystal.

Dan Pashman: So it's Diamond Crystal, final answer. And in fact in the time after I would make that decision, the company that produces Diamond Crystal would invest in a glow up for the packaging and much wider distribution, so it’s actually in a lot more stores across the country now.

Dan Pashman: Anyway, choosing Diamond Crystal is my first big decision on this book. And while, yes, I did consult my family, my cookbook team, and thousands of people on social media ... In the end, I went with my gut. I chose the salt I like better, that I use in my own kitchen. But I’m plagued by the feeling that that’s not how I should be making these decisions. Because I’m not a chef or recipe developer. So what do I know? Why should anyone listen to me?

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: These feelings persist as I try to come up with a list of recipes for the team and me to start working on. I ask all the developers to send me a bunch of ideas for pasta dishes, and I also do my own research. I’m reading through the old Italian cookbooks that Evan Kleiman told me to look into, looking for inspiration. And I’m listing pasta dishes I already cook at home, like my pesto baked ziti, and mac and dal.

Dan Pashman: I take all these options and select about 20 recipes to get us started. I want to get a feel for the process, see what’s working, before I pick more. As I find out, developing even one recipe has many steps. Here’s how it goes:

Step One: [DING] The recipe developer cooks the dish several times, tweaking as they go, until they think it’s good. 

Step Two: [DING] I cook it, making now of my questions and suggested changes. If there are big changes, the developer may make it one or two more times, then I’ll make it again to be sure I’m happy with it. 

Step Three: [DING] The recipe goes to Captain Rebeccah for the final test. If it passes, it's done! 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: The first developer to start sending recipes in is Katie, a.k.a. Super-Nonna. My daughter Emily and I test her new and improved version of my pesto baked ziti.

Dan Pashman: Maybe just a little more grated Parmesan cheese, I think? 

Emily Pashman: Oh, yes. Put more, as much as you need. You can dump the entire thing in there if you need to. 

Dan Pashman: All right, I will. I gotta measure it though. 

Emily Pashman: Why do we need to measure, just dump the entire thing, 

Dan Pashman: Because we gotta keep track of exactly what I'm doing, so I can put the recipe in the book. All right, I'm adding one more half a cup …

Dan Pashman: I also start getting recipes from Asha, a.k.a. the Saucy Spicetress. I try out spaghettoni alla tadka. Tadka is the term for the Indian technique of cooking whole spices in fat to coax out a ton of flavor.

Dan Pashman: Becky come here. I made a second batch of this.

Becky Pashman: I was hoping you would say that.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] So the first one was good, very good. But to me, it had a little bit of a burnt taste to it.

Becky Pashman: Yeah, I was going to say that but I didn’t want to say because I thought you would feel bad.

Dan Pashman: Well, thanks. But listen, going forward we’re recipe testing here so if something isn’t good you gotta tell me because this is the time ...

Becky Pashman: Well, it was good. It was just that one thing.

Dan Pashman: Right. So let’s see. Try this — this is the same recipe, just very small changes to get rid of that flavor and to bring other flavors forward. Tell me what you think.

Becky Pashman: It’s so good. 

Dan Pashman: So that one’s a winner. Another success? Cacio e uova. It's cheese and egg, like a meatless carbonara, or super silky mac and cheese that you can make in about 20 minutes.

Becky Pashman: It's so beautiful!

Emily Pashman: It is so good.

Dan Pashman: But not everything’s a hit. There’s a slow cooked sirloin ragu. Basically, like an upscale tomato based meat sauce.

Janie Pashman: I mean, it's good. I just — I don't know that I would want to make it again. Like everyone makes a tomato-based sauce, so like this isn't so — this isn't like a new thing for a lot of people.

Dan Pashman: All right, decision made. This recipe doesn't make it. It just got cut.

Janie Pashman: You're dead to us. 

Dan Pashman: You're dead to us, sirloin ragu. 

Becky Pashman: I would make this recipe, so that's selfish of you to just assume what other people would want. 

Janie Pashman: You're gonna make this recipe that takes an hour and 45 minutes? You wouldn't even put away your socks.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Burn.

Dan Pashman: After that sirloin ragu, I make a key decision: I will not put any tomato sauce recipes in my cookbook, unless they’re really different from anything I’ve had before. For any dish where we need a basic tomato sauce, I’m gonna tell people to use jarred sauces, because there are so many good ones out there. Why do you need to make one from scratch? I’m even going to make a Jarred Tomato Sauce Decision Tree full of things you can add to a jar of sauce to take it to another level.

Dan Pashman: I’m very pleased with all this, but my family is already pushing me to tackle bigger issues.

Becky Pashman: What are you gonna name your cookbook? Like, wasn't it like, More Than Meat Sauce? Or like, Beyond Bolognese or something? 

Dan Pashman: Those are two of the working titles: More Than Meat Sauce, Beyond Bolognese. But my editor, Cassie, she said she doesn't like book titles that tell you what the book is not. I think that's kind of a good thought. I have another working title, though. Tell me what you think of this one. Ready? Put It On Pasta. 

Janie Pashman: I mean, do you want it to be silly or serious? 

Dan Pashman: I want it to be accessible. 

Emily Pashman: Whatever that means.

Becky Pashman: That's definitely not a word. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Janie's got some pitches for the title of the book. 

Janie Pashman: Past ... Pastabilities?

Dan Pashman: Yeah.

Janie Pashman: Here's another one: Feeling Saucy?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING] Wait, what are you read — you're reading these off your phone. What do you…

Janie Pashman: I'm just looking at some like pasta puns. 

Becky Pashman: Bro, that's Google's intellectual property. 

Janie Pashman: How about Feeling Cannelloni? [LAUGHING]

[LAUGHING]

Janie Pashman: Get it? Feeling kind of lonely?

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] But, if we're going to do a pun, why don't we call the book Mission Impastable? Mission Impastable, the quest for new and different pasta preparations. 

Becky Pashman: Because that's taken? 

Dan Pashman: By me. 

Becky Pashman: Yeah, exactly.

Emily Pashman: How about ...

Becky Pashman: How about something new? You sound like you're out of ideas. 

Dan Pashman: Ouch. We’ll put a pin in the title for now. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: A few weeks into recipe testing, things are going great. 

Dan Pashman: I'm in the car on my way to the store to pick up another box, a giant box, of Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt because I'm out. I also need more garlic. And I was just thinking about the fact that I am having so much fun testing all these recipes. It's a lot to manage time-wise with life and all that, and other jobs and things, but like, I do love cooking and I don't get to cook as often as I would like because I'm busy working. And now when I have to cook for work, it's kind of like, I dunno, I guess maybe it, like, allows me to justify it in my head like, oh, you have — you should stop your meetings at three o'clock today because you have to cook for work. And it's also pushing me to cook with ingredients that I haven't cooked with before, techniques I haven't used before. All that being said, I'm like six recipes in. [LAUGHING] So we'll see if I still feel this way in six months. [LAUGHS]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, after six more recipes, I start having less fun. And Janie wonders whether all of this is worth it. Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++ BREAK +++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I'm Dan Pashman. And before we get back to the show, I want to let you know about a couple of recent Sporkful episodes that I think you’re gonna really enjoy. In February we talked with a professor who consults with restaurants on how to design the dining room to maximize profit. We see her in action at an Indian restaurant in Queens, who then make changes based on her feedback. Does it increase profit? We find out.

Dan Pashman: In another episode, I talk with the comedian Gary Gulman. And in our feed we also have all four episodes of our new podcast Deep Dish with Sohla and Ham, which shares deep dives into the surprising stories behind a bunch of dishes. You can find all those episodes and more, in The Sporkful feed. And please make sure you hit follow or subscribe in your podcasting app so you never miss an episode! Thanks. Okay, back to the show.

Dan Pashman: A month into the testing process, we're still humming through the first batch of recipes. But there are a few that Super-Nonna Katie and I aren’t sure about, so we decide it would be more efficient if we cook them together in person and discuss. In July 2022, on a trip to visit her sister in nearby Queens, Katie comes over to my house to cook with me.

Dan Pashman: So Katie ...

Katie Leaird: Yes.

Dan Pashman: I won't take it personally that you brought your own pan. 

Katie Leaird: [LAUGHS] Okay. This is very specific. I actually — I bought this pan for this cookbook ...

Dan Pashman: Katie and I have two recipes on our agenda today. They're both dishes she's already done some testing on, so we're not starting from scratch. First, fettuccine all'ubriaco, which means drunken fettuccine. That’s because instead of boiling the pasta in water, you boil it in red wine. That way it absorbs the flavor, but also the color, and at the end you get these reddish-purple noodles that are unlike any other pasta I’ve ever seen. This dish ticks a lot of my boxes — it’s a classic Italian pasta dish, but it’s not well known outside Italy. It’s easy to make and simple enough that it’s sort of a partially blank canvas. It offers Katie and me opportunities to make tweaks, or dare I say, improvements. And Katie thinks the traditional method could use some help …

Katie Leaird: Now, a lot of the complaints about this dish that I've heard from people is that, well, I used a whole bottle of wine, now I have nothing to drink.

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]

Katie Leaird: And I don't really taste it in there, so ...

Dan Pashman: Right.

Katie Leaird: So, I've tried to brainstorm a few ways to pump this dish up with some flavor. 

Dan Pashman: In previous tests, Katie cooked the pasta in undiluted red wine. But the result was too bitter. So in another test at home, she tried half water, half wine. That turned out a little bland. This time she’s basically splitting the difference.

[COOKING AMBI]

Katie Leaird: The wine ...

Dan Pashman: As we finish making the ubriaco Janie walks into the kitchen.

Janie Pashman: Smells good. 

Dan Pashman: Katie sets out the pinkish purple pasta for us to try …

Janie Pashman: If I didn't smell the wine, like, I don't know that I would even know what the flavor is. 

Katie Leaird: There we go. 

Janie Pashman: You know? 

Katie Leaird: That's a really — that's the feedback about this dish a lot. I think part of my, you know, thought about this dish is is it more of a presentation piece, you know, because it has such a dramatic look or is — does it really hit some flavor that we think people will love?

Dan Pashman: Right. So it sounds to me like both of you are sort of saying like, maybe this shouldn't be in the book.

Katie Leaird: Yes. For my personal palate, maybe it shouldn't be in the book. 

Dan Pashman: This gets to the heart of a big issue for me, which was also a big issue with cascatelli. I said throughout that process, I don’t want a gimmick. I didn’t want to just make a pasta shape that would get a lot of likes on Instagram, I wanted it to be legitimately amazing to eat. With ubriaco, it looks so striking, the photo of the purple noodles alone would probably sell cookbooks. And I can certainly imagine getting press for the book through a very clickbaity article about the recipe, with a headline like: This little known pasta dish has an entire bottle of red wine in it.

Dan Pashman: But I don’t want gimmicks. As I tell Katie and Janie, I want sauces that I can’t stop scraping out of the pot, that I wake up the next morning wanting to make and eat again.

Dan Pashman: I don't know that it rises to that standard. I'm leaning towards saying we should cut it, but I'll put the leftovers in the fridge and see if I'm craving it tomorrow morning.

Katie Leaird: Oh, you won't.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Katie Leaird: I promise you. I promise you, you won't. 

Dan Pashman: All right.

Dan Pashman: Now it's time to move onto our second dish of the day, and I think the journey of this dish in particular will give you a sense of where recipes actually come from.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: It’s cavatelli with artichokes and preserved lemon. Cavatelli kinda looks like a little canoe. Now, this idea started with one of the classic Italian cookbooks Evan assigned to me. It had a pasta with artichokes and lemon, which sounded fantastic. When I brought it to my team, recipe developer Asha Loupy, a.k.a. the Saucy Spicetress, suggested a tweak: How about instead of just lemon juice, we use preserved lemon? It's not a common ingredient in Italian cooking, you find it more in North African and Middle Eastern cuisine, but I love it — it’s salty and savory and very lemony. I was immediately sold on the concept.

Dan Pashman: Since it was rooted in an Italian classic, I assigned it to Katie, who got to work. After four trials she had a recipe where the artichokes were coated in cornstarch and fried, making them golden brown and crispy. When I tested it I loved the flavors, and I was so pleased that I sent it ahead to Captain Rebeccah for a final test. We declared it done.

Dan Pashman: But then I wanted to eat it again, so I made it again and doubts started to creep in. First, some people are intimidated by deep frying, and others avoid it for health reasons. Second, the artichokes that weren’t eaten right away lost their crisp, which cancels out the benefits of frying. And third, I wanted more artichokes. 

Dan Pashman: During one of The Sporkful team’s weekly check ins, we got to talking about artichokes, as we do. And Producer Andres O’Hara mentioned that you can take canned artichokes, drain them, pat them dry, toss them in olive oil and roast them on a sheet pan until crispy. At my house, Katie and I prepare to try this method with the artichoke and preserved lemon dish. This is test number 8.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So we got the canned artichokes. They have been drained, patted dry, quartered, patted dry some more.

Katie Leaird: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Now I'll say right off the bat, I don't think that these are gonna end up as crispy as the fried ones.

Katie Leaird: No. And I think that maybe that's okay. Maybe we change the title of the recipe.

Dan Pashman: Right.

Katie Leaird: You know, right now, we're calling it crispy artichokes. But roasted artichokes sounds pretty darn nice too. So …

Dan Pashman: Yeah. And I mean, let's face it, preserved lemon are the real star of this dish either way.

Katie Leaird: I'm just gonna make a couple of notes on what we did here.

Dan Pashman: As we go to put the artichokes in the oven, Katie and I have a major realization. Now that we're not frying the artichokes, we can add more of them. With frying, we were constrained by the size of the pan, and I didn't want to make people fry in batches — that get's annoying. But with the roasting method, we can fit a third can of artichokes on a single sheet pan. 

Katie Leaird: You're in. This could be ... This could be huge. Three cans of artichokes.

Dan Pashman: We’re going to three. [WHISTLES] [LAUGHS] But this is good because I love artichokes.

Katie Leaird: I do too. We're making your dreams come true.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Once the artichokes are done we assemble the dish — adding olive oil, garlic, capers, pecorino, the artichokes, and that crucial preserved lemon. And we’ve actually made one more tweak. In earlier versions, we used half a preserved lemon, but this time we’re going for a whole one.

Katie Leaird: Wow. It's beautiful.

Dan Pashman: It looks really nice.

Katie Leaird: I mean, the color is really, really beautiful here.

Dan Pashman: Janie joins us again for the taste test …

Dan Pashman: This one is so good every single time. 

Katie Leaird: Is it walking a salty line right now? 

Dan Pashman: You think it's too salty?

Janie Pashman: I'm just not — I don't — I'm not a fan of the preserved lemon — like, when I get a bite of the preserved lemon I don't really like that, but ...

Katie Leaird: Hmm. I will say maybe a whole lemon might be a little aggressive. 

Dan Pashman: I think you're right.

Katie Leaird: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: I think — but, I think a half wasn't enough.

Katie Leaird: Exactly. So where does that leave us? Like it's every ...

Dan Pashman: If only there was some number in between a half and a whole. 

Katie Leaird: If only!

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Of course, to confirm three quarters of a preserved lemon works, Katie will have to test the recipe again when she gets home. Once she is happy with it, I’m gonna want to cook it once more to be sure it’s right, then it’ll go back to Captain Rebeccah for a final final test. So with test number 8, we’ve made progress but it’s still far from done. Katie doesn't seem fazed.

Katie Leaird: I have tested a recipe 100 times before.

Dan Pashman: Whoa.

Katie Leaird: [LAUGHS] But no, I think that the value in a cookbook over getting free recipes on the internet, which I'm not trying to knock that out, cause I write those too, but is knowing that these recipes have really been vetted and that it's been a lot of different sets of hands. So, no, I don't think nine is — I mean, I'd be happy to keep going on this, you know?

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Janie, what are your thoughts? How does this whole process …

Janie Pashman: This whole — it seems like so much work. I'm actually like, are — you really wanna do this cookbook?

[LAUGHING]

Janie Pashman: Like this seems like …

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: It is. Honestly, I mean, we're still only maybe 25% of the way into the process. It's.. It's ... It's more work than I anticipated.

Janie Pashman: How many recipes do you wanna have?

Dan Pashman: I'm required by my book contract to have 75 to a 100 recipes.

Janie Pashman: Oh my god.

Katie Leaird: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] You think it’s a mistake?

Janie Pashman: I'm like, I need a nap.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Janie Pashman: There's just a lot of recipes already out there.

Katie Leaird: Hm.

Dan Pashman: This sounds familiar. [LAUGHS]

Janie Pashman: [LAUGHS] That's true. That's what I said about the pasta. I was like, why are you doing ... Why are you making a new shape?

Katie Leaird: Ohhh.

Dan Pashman: We're at the point now where if Janie doesn't doubt me, I feel like I'm on the wrong path. [LAUGHS]

Katie Leaird: Uh-huh. 

Janie Pashman: [LAUGHS] Yes, you're right. I've doubted everything you've done.

[LAUGHING]

Janie Pashman: I guess, I don't have faith in you.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHING]

Katie Leaird: Truth comes out. 

Janie Pashman: I didn't really think about it.

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: By the time we finish washing dishes and Katie leaves, it's late afternoon. And what do we have to show for a day’s work? We spent half the day on ubriaco and then decided to cut it from the book. The other half of the day, we spent reworking a dish we thought we’d already finished, and now it’s still not done. I do love the artichoke and preserved lemon one even more now. I mean it is so, so good. but still, it doesn't exactly feel like we accomplished much. 

Dan Pashman: Janie’s out doing errands, also reflecting on what she saw in the kitchen earlier. We might have been laughing during our taste tests, but when we talk on the phone, it’s feeling less funny.

Janie Pashman: I saw like how much work it is for one recipe. Now you have to do this like 75 to a 100 times. And you know, it was so amazing with the pasta, like you put in all that work and it actually was successful, but like, I just feel like books ... Like you're putting all this work in, and then like, what if the book, you know, doesn't sell? You are a great storyteller and you're a great writer and you're very smart, but like, you even say you're not a chef. 

Dan Pashman: Um, I mean, look, I feel sort of imposter syndrome myself about the fact that I'm not a chef, but that's why I hired all these super talented recipe developers. 

Janie Pashman: Yeah. I don’t know. I just ... I think I just ... It just seemed like a lot, like, to come up with all these different dishes, but I wanna be more positive.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] You're turning over a new leaf?

Janie Pashman: Yeah.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: As much as I’m trying to project confidence, the truth is that the questions Janie’s asking are the same questions I’ve been asking myself. Which can all be summed up in one big question: Why am I doing this in the first place? 

Dan Pashman: I guess, if I can do it well, it might take care of that chip on my shoulder about being a food podcast host with no culinary training. And I am very excited about the concept of this book, I can’t wait to share these recipes with people. But most of all, I think what’s driving me is that I just want to prove to myself that I can write a great book.

Dan Pashman: Like I said, I wrote a book ten years ago called Eat More Better. It wasn’t a cookbook, more just my opinions about food and eating. It had some parts I still love, but I never really figured out how to put my weird food theories into a book in a way that connected with people. I still remember going to my local bookstore months after it came out and seeing copies of it in the discount bin. Now, a decade later and more experienced, I get another chance to see if I can write a book that matches my ambitions. As I say to Janie …

Dan Pashman: Like, as much as it's a lot of work, it's also exciting to have a new creative challenge to push myself to do something that I haven't done before. This is my second book, and my first book nobody bought. And if no one buys this book, I'm not gonna get a third shot.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So it just feel like, I got one more shot to write a successful book. You know?

Janie Pashman: Yeah.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So I want to make a cookbook and Janie wants to be more positive. We've both got a lot of work to do.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up in Part 2 of Anything’s Pastable, I begin work on the next batch of recipes, which requires a research trip to Italy, in search of the country’s most obscure pasta dishes …

CLIP (ANTONTELLO DE BARI): A lot of people even in Italy don't know about it. People must know about this. 

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Then later, as our series continues, the recipe developers and I test, and re-test dozens more dishes. And my family and I all reach our breaking points:

MUSIC

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): I gotta be honest, I think I'm getting tired of eating pasta.

CLIP (BECKY PASHMAN): Will it never end?

CLIP (EMILY PASHMAN): Are you done?

CLIP (JANIE PASHMAN): We’re like 8 conversations …

CLIP (EMILY PASHMAN):  You're not. And you’ll never BS the problem.

CLIP (BECKY PASHMAN): Honestly, it never ends. 

CLIP (EMILY PASHMAN):  Can you just stop? Oh wait. You can’t!

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): It feels like I accomplished nothing.  

CLIP (JANIE PASHMAN): I don’t know. I’m tired and I’m over the cookbook.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: If you’re eager to hear part 2 of Anything's Pastable, there’s no need to wait — it’s up right now in The Sporkful’s podcast feed, so start listening! And if you haven’t already, please be sure to follow or subscribe to The Sporkful in your podcasting app. You can do it right now while you’re listening!

Dan Pashman: Also, if you want to see photos and videos of all the ups and downs of this journey, I’ll be sharing those on my Instagram. Follow me there @TheSporkful. Anything’s Pastable comes out March 19th but you can preorder it now wherever books are sold! You can even preorder a signed copy! Get those links at Sporkful.com/book! And remember to get your tickets for Sporkful Live: The Anything’s Pastable book tour. I’m hitting 12 cities across the U.S. starting in just two weeks. These are live podcast tapings and book signings, there’s also a free virtual event with Kenji Lopez-Alt. All those details are at sporkful.com/tour. 

Dan Pashman: Special thanks to Evan Kleiman, who hosts Good Food on L.A.’s KCRW. And thanks to all my recipe developers. If you want to learn more about them, we’ve been sharing their personal backstories in short segments in the podcast which ran in February, so I hope you’ll check those out if you haven’t already. 

MUSIC