Dan Pashman: Steve Alvarez is a professor at St. John’s University in New York. He teaches a class called Taco Literacy. Yeah, you heard me right.

Steve Alvarez: The class where you can study tacos and it's — and in college!

Dan Pashman: So you and I, Steve, we have something in common. We both managed to find out way into careers — 

Steve Alvarez: Hey ... yeah. 

Dan Pashman: With some real good fringe benefits. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. Well, I mean, I can't complain about the research now. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

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Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies it’s for eaters, I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Hey, before we get into this week's show, I want to ask you to help me our real quick We are getting ready to do a call-in show, here on The Sporkful. That's where you and a loved one call in with a food-related dispute, and I'll try to help you out. Now, I'm not so interested in questions like, “is a hot dog a sandwich?”, we're really more interested in a disagreement that might be, like, indicative of something bigger in your relationship with a friend or loved one. Now, I’ll be joined for this episode by Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings of the podcast For Colored Nerds. So, they're gonna help me help you. If you want the chance to talk with all three of us, email me at hello@sporkful.com. Tell me your name, where you are, and what the problem is and I'll try to help you out. Thanks.

Dan Pashman: Okay, let's talk tacos. Taco literacy is based on the idea that you can “read” a taco. You can look at the meat, the spices, the tortilla, and each component unlocks something about Mexican and American history and culture. Who needs Shakespeare? Every ingredient of a taco is its own kind of poetry, to be analyzed and interpreted. What a piece of work is a taco! How noble in flavor, how infinite in seasonings! In portability, how like an angel. In deliciousness, how like a god.

Dan Pashman: So pack up your Bob Marley poster and your mini fridge, cause we’re going to college. But this won’t be a lecture — it’s a field trip. We’re gonna join Steve Alvarez and his students for their end of semester taco crawl.  

Dan Pashman: But before we get that, I wanted to understand why Steve created a class called "Taco Literacy". Why literacy and language are so important to him. So before we left, I spent some time talking with him in his apartment in Queens. 

Dan Pashman: Steve grew up in Safford, Arizona, a small mining town about two hours from the Mexico border. Safford was a pretty segregated place. There was one area where the white folks lived, many of them were Mormon. The Mexican neighborhood was across the highway. 

Dan Pashman: Both Steve’s parents are Mexican-American. But their family lived on the Mormon side of town.

Steve Alvarez: Knowing that I didn't quite fit in with the white folks but then when I was with the Mexican folks, similar. And food always became this thing when I had some of my mormon buddies over, they were always asking, "What's for dinner?" They can smell things and had a lot of questions and they were happy when the got some of my mom's beans. My mom's beans really — were pretty famous. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Steve Alvarez: But I never really had those kind of same cravings, for example, when I went to their places. So through the food, I definitely was being introduced to different kind of flavors and also sometimes being able to be proud of being Mexican. A lot times, too, there was — as it happens everywhere with folks, especially being near the border, a way of shaming people for having Mexican roots. And that definitely something that came through both in my generation, my parents generation, I'm sure down the line. 

Dan Pashman: And did you speak Spanish at home?

Steve Alvarez: Well, no. This is also kind of complicated and it's not a unique story. Previous immigrant groups can think about the generation when, for example, Italians starts to fade away. Spanish was around, especially when my parents — and whenever they spoke to other folks, but with the younger folks, it was more English dominant, except for words for members of a family and words for food. 

Dan Pashman: Did you wish that you spoke Spanish?

Steve Alvarez: I think in Safford, not really. I think the wish was always to be heard and any kind of, let's say, trace of Spanish or Mexican-Spanish accents, in terms of one's English, was a way for folks to be discriminated against. And if anything, I thought speaking better English would give me more advantages. 

Dan Pashman: So you're — growing up you weren't — you were, basically, monolingual. 

Steve Alvarez: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Do you remember when you first started to have a different feeling about the fact that you didn't speak Spanish?

Steve Alvarez: I mean, well, early on I do remember having some cousins who were bilingual and them being able to have a conversations with me grandparents, cause my grandparents only spoke Spanish. There was a little bit of jealousy there because I noticed that the way that they spoke Spanish sounded a little bit more informal than they way we were trying to speak English to them. And then later on, I would say, especially, when I moved from Safford in Tuscan and there was a lot more people who were speaking Spanish and I started traveling more to Mexico, especially, to places like MCO and Nogales. That's when I started really having questions about, "Well, why don't I know this? I mean, people expect me to, and I don't." So, you know, a lot of people would — even my own cousins would be disappointed that I didn't speak Spanish, and sometimes I felt like, "Yeah, maybe that is my fault." And then, you know, there's also the other side of me that thinks about this kind of journey of recovering it and as being something that is an opportunity. And certainly that's made me have a more enriched understanding about myself. 

Dan Pashman: You feel that learning Spanish is giving you a richer understanding of yourself?

Steve Alvarez: For sure. Yeah. Now I'm — well, now there's a lot more words that mean a lot more sense. 

[LAUGHING] 

Steve Alvarez: People were calling me like, especially a lot of bad words I didn't know. My mom says a lot of this one word. I guess, you probably can't say it because you know it's — it is a swear word. But I didn't know my mom was saying that all these years because — oh my goodness, my mom speaks like a sailor. This is incredible. So things like that and then also different words for foods, especially sometimes I didn't know what I was eating. I don't know what it was called. 

Dan Pashman: Steve first started learning Spanish in his freshman year of college. When the professor saw his last name, Alvarez, he thought Steve was trying to score an easy A. But Steve needed his mom’s help with the homework. Soon though, he started picking it up.

Steve Alvarez: Really early back. I do remember when I would go taking the stuff at I learned in my university undergrad class and go to places like Nogales and Sonora or MCO and just be able to order tacos, for example. Practicing on food was one of — some of the first places where I would go and just try it out. And when they were able to understand me, that was pretty cool. 

Dan Pashman: How did that feel? I mean, you went — you're in Mexico ...

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Speaking Spanish. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Ordering tacos in Spanish. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes it would be, for example, I mean, because it's close, you know, close to the border so that people would speak English, too, and they would speak to me in English and answer back in Spanish. And they would be sometimes amused because it could see my  — hear my accent and then they would speak to me in Spanish. 

MUSIC

Steve Alvarez: At that point, it's like, wow, it's pretty cool. All right. So now I can start to do this and, and maybe ... maybe not be a local, but also have a different kind of relationship with people. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Those experiences inspired Steve to create Taco Literacy. He uses the class to explore a central question of all his work: What happens when language and food and people cross borders?

Dan Pashman: Steve used to teach at the University of Kentucky, in Lexington. It's a city with a large Mexican-American population. They even have a neighborhood nicknamed Mexington. He’s written about the ways that Mexican food is changing America, and the ways America is changing Mexican food. Before we started reading tacos, I was curious to have Steve read a menu. 

Steve Alvarez: Nice. Oh wow, that's that's ... that's a big menu. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: You can tell by looking at the menu ...

Dan Pashman: I showed Steve the menu for a Mexican place in my town in the suburbs, a place I like a lot, called Tres Amigos Mexican Grill. It’s owned by a man named Manuel Gomez, who’s Ecuadorean. Right off the bat, Steve noticed the restaurant’s logo …

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, first thing that strikes me are the chili peppers with sombreros and the mustache. And they're also wearing those little white gloves. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: What are your thoughts on that? 

Steve Alvarez: Well, I don't even get too much into it, but there was something that came out recently about those white gloves being involved with minstrel shows of cartoons, but that speaks for itself. Let's just take a look at the food. I mean, the first thing that struck me when I saw wraps. And I go, this is a burrito, but they do have a burrito. But, yeah ... 

Dan Pashman: Well, I don't want to start a big fight here, Steve. But I do technically believe that a burrito is a type of wrap. 

Steve Alvarez: Oh man, we could go — I would go the other way. I think a wrap is a burrito. 

[LAUGHING] 

Steve Alvarez: That's what I was — I was like, come on, don't even front. You're putting a tortilla ... that is a burrito. I don't care what you put it inside, I would — we used to to put macaroni and cheese inside tortillas and that was — that was a burrito.

Dan Pashman: We let that debate go, and Steve continued to study the menu. And this menu so interesting to me because I feel like you can see cultures coming together right there on the paper, but not in a melting pot sort of way. A melting pot would just be middle of the road, watered down Mexican food. This menu has opposite extremes side by side, co-existing or doing battle, depending on how you look at it. 

Steve Alvarez: Nice jalapeno ... okay, bowl of chili ... pinto refried ... Amigo Chili?! What? 

Dan Pashman: What? What'd you see? 

Steve Alvarez: Crispy calamari burrito? I'd do that. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Yeah, there's actually a law on Long Island. You're not allowed to open a restaurant and not serve fried calamari. You can't even get a license to operate.

Steve Alvarez: Hey, you do la lengua 

Dan Pashman: Well, that's what — so this is what — so this menu, to describe, is an 11 by 17 piece of paper. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: There's probably at least 50, maybe 75 items. 

Steve Alvarez: Oh yeah.

Dan Pashman: But way down in the bottom right hand corner?

Steve Alverez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: In this tiny little box. You see the section called "Authentic Mexican Tacos." 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, it was the smallest one and it's right at the very bottom. 

Dan Pashman: Lengua is tongue, and those authentic tacos are done on two corn tortillas with cilantro, chopped onion, and lime — classic. That lengua taco is my jam. But at the very top of the menu there’s another section called tacos, and that’s the American hard shell taco with the shredded lettuce. Steve noticed the difference in those two placements … 

Steve Alvarez: And you know that this would be the first one you encounter assumes something about the audience, and that this is sort of relegated to the bottom of the menu also says something to us, too. 

Dan Pashman: I sort of — I feel like I'm more optimistic days, I can look at the menu like this and be like, It's so great that authentic Mexican tacos are on this menu in a place [STEVE: Yeah.] like the suburbs or a place like Kentucky where you lived and worked for a while. 

Steve Alvarez: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And that feels like progress on my more optimistic days. And then on my less optimistic days, I look at a menu like this and it feels like the authentic part of the menu is getting eaten alive. 

Steve Alvarez: Well, yeah, you know, I guess it depends on the day as well. And maybe ... and maybe on the day that the sombrero wearing Chile would be more offensive to me. And some days I was just like, you know, I got other things to worry about.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: One note to add — I did speak with Manuel Gomez, the owner of Tres Amigos. He declined to be interviewed on mic, but he did tell me more about the thought process behind his menu. First off, the logo? He found it on the internet, he says he just got a kick out of the peppers wearing sombreros. As for the food, he was pretty blunt. He said, quote, “This is Mexican food for Americans.” He says he needs to offer all these options to run a successful business. And he knows what he’s doing. He’s been owning and operating Mexican restaurants in my area of Long Island for 20 years. 

Dan Pashman: In that time, Manuel says he’s seen some changes. About 10 years ago, he introduced that little section at the bottom of the menu, Authentic Mexican Tacos. At first they didn’t sell. But eventually, Manuel tells me, a lot of the hispanic people in the area who work in landscaping started buying them. And they shared them with their bosses. And the bosses started bringing their families into the restaurant.

Dan Pashman: Now, Manuel says, he sells about half of those authentic tacos to non-Spanish speakers. When he opened his latest place he tried to get more ambitious – he offered items like chile rellenos, chilaquiles, and huevos rancheros. But they didn’t sell, he took them off the menu. So … baby steps.

Dan Pashman: Coming up, Steve Alvarez and I join his students and go from reading menus to reading tacos.  

Dan Pashman: Read this taco. 

Steve Alverez: Well, the first thing, of course, we had to wrap it before you mean it, before we — I mean, open up the book cover. But as you see — first thing you see is  —  well, you notice it's a flour tortilla and that already is very different. 

Dan Pashman: And we go looking for good tacos in a very unlikely place. Stick around.

MUSIC

 

+++BREAK+++ 

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. In last week show, I embark on a quest: to make a viral TikTok video. Now, I’ve barely ever used TikTok, and I’m over 40, so the odds are against me. But I try anyway with the help of a few food social media experts, including The Korean Vegan, a.k.a. Joanne Lee Molinaro, and writer Bettina Makalintal. Now you may be asking: Why Dan? Why TikTok? 

CLIP (BETTINA MAKALINTAL): I think TikTok is sort of the place that all the new food trends are happening. It's where anyone who wants to be an internet food personality is starting out. 

CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): And I think we can agree that if you want to start off in the world of like food and food media, the last thing you'd want to do is start a podcast. 

CLIP (BETTINA MAKALINTAL): Yeah, probably 

Dan Pashman: That episode’s a lot of fun, it’s up now, check it out. Okay, back to the show. After I spoke with Professor Steve Alvarez in his apartment, he and I went to meet up with his taco literacy students at a nearby restaurant. 

Dan Pashman: They had spent the semester interviewing the cooks and owners at local Mexican restaurants and bakeries, reading about the history of Mexican cooking and ingredients, and writing about what they learned. This end-of-term taco crawl would be part culmination, part celebration. 

Dan Pashman: Steve had picked out several spots in the Corona section of Queens, where there are a lot of Mexican immigrants. The first featured food from Puebla, in southern Mexico.

Steve Alvarez: So we are going to, known as Bayer Puebla, but really, the full name is Aquí en Bella Puebla, where we're going to try some tacos cereaves. 

Dan Pashman: Now tacos Arabes — that's Arab tacos. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, and this has a lot to do — or really ties in directly with some of the Middle Eastern migration, particularly Lebanese immigrants to Mexico. Here we are. 

Dan Pashman: Okay. 

Steve Alvarez: You're in beautiful Puebla ... 

Dan Pashman: All right. 

Steve Alvarez: In Queens. 

Dan Pashman: All right. 

Steve Alvarez: Next to the seven train. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Let's do it. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, let's go. All right. Let's meet the students.

Dan Pashman: Inside Bella Puebla was decorated with streamers in the colors of the Mexican flag, and Mexican tapestries. Spanish language TV was on in the corner. I started meeting the students…

Cindy: I wanted to take this class because the theme of this seminar was just different from anything I've ever seen before. And usually for English majors, it's like, like British literature or contemporary literature, but to have something to say like Mexican food, it just sounded unique 

Dan Pashman: And more delicious than British literature. 

Cindy: Yes, definitely.

Dan Pashman: That’s Cindy. She and I agreed, we were both starving. While we waited for the food, I also talked with Richey.

Richey: Knowing the history of the food you're eating, it's kind of important because you know where it comes from. So now I'll know more about tacos, the history of tacos. I'll know burritos aren't really like Mexican — The whole history of that. I think it's just —  

Dan Pashman: What is the whole history of that? Pop quiz!

Richey: Okay. They're more like a borderland type of food. It doesn't really come from Mexico. Like a lot of — they called it like "the handlers" of Mexican people who would come to do work. That's the food they were given. It was really like food of shame. Nobody really wanted to bring out their tortillas because it also showed like your social class and all that. So I think now when I order a burrito, I'll be like, — I'll just like the flashback in my mind, all the assignments I wrote on that and then still enjoy it, but I'll at least now I know where it comes from. I think that's really cool. 

Dan Pashman: Then I met Ariana…

Ariana: Okay, so I actually got into this class on accident. My advisors signed me up for it and on my schedule it just said that it was an English lecture. It didn't specify taco literacy or anything like that. So when I first walked into class, I was late and I was like, "Is this the right class?"

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Ariana: But I sat down and I was like, okay, if he doesn't call my name, then I'll leave. I'll apologize and I'll leave. But he called my name. I was like, "Oh, okay. He asked me, "Oh, what's your relationship to Mexican?" I was like, "Well, I'm Mexican, so I grew up eating it."

 Dan Pashman: What did you learn about Mexican food from taking this class that you didn't know growing up as a Mexican-American? 

Ariana: Well, I've definitely — okay, so I'm from Texas, and there is kind of this idea of Tex-Mex not being real Mexican food, and I had always just kind of accepted that. Like, okay, it's not real Mexican food. But this class is really taught me about authenticity and what ... what authenticity really means and how it's really subjective because, you know, Mexican people came to Texas and in a lot of cases already lived there and just made the food that was available with ingredients that were available to them. So, I don't know. It's really made me question that when someone says, "Oh, that's not real Mexican food," I'm like, "How do you know that?" 

Dan Pashman: At this point, the tacos Arabes started coming out. Like Steve said, they’re called Arab tacos because, around World War I there was an influx of middle eastern immigrants to southern Mexico. They brought the shawarma tradition of spit roasted lamb served in pita bread. In Mexico, that morphed into spit roasted pork in a flour tortilla. It’s seasoned with cumin, oregano, onions, and sometimes Mexican chipotle sauce. 

Dan Pashman: All right, taco number one: Taco Araby. I'm going in. Oh, my God. Oftentimes when you get the meat off one of those spits at a less good place, it can be kind of like dried out. It sits in front of that heater for hours and hours and it gets kind of dry. This is so juicy and a little bit of lime juice on top? 

Richey: I think this is the best thing I've ever had for breakfast

Dan Pashman: And my ordering game was on point on this day, my friends. I ordered two tacos Arbes, one to eat right away, one to read with Steve. 

Steve Alvarez: Well, the first thing, of course, we have to wrap it before you — I mean, open up the book cover. But as you see — first thing you see is —well, you notice it's a flour tortilla and that already is very different. 

Dan Pashman: What does that tell you?

Steve Alvarez: Well, it could be a number — one of two things. One is that we're dealing with the norteño taco or we're dealing with a taco Arabes. In this case, we're going with the latter. 

Dan Pashman: And why are flour tortillas more come into northern Mexico?

Steve Alvarez: It's a long story, but really it was the ease of producing wheat in the northern frontier and also the incursion by the government. I guess, you would say economic development and also a kind of stigmatization of corn as being backwards or, um, some somewhat "primitive." So the north was —

Dan Pashman: Where did that idea come from? 

Steve Alvarez: Oh, that's been there since the Spaniards arrived, I'd say. And it was the food of the conquered being understood as part of the reason why they were conquered. And the superiority of, especially bread, and the ideology of European or Western progress was also a conquest culinary. 

Dan Pashman: So you're saying when the Spanish arrived and conquered Mexico, they were like, "You people are eating corn. This is why we were able to kick your butt."

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: And we don't have these silly tortillas. We make bread with wheat and it's superior. 

Steve Alvarez: Absolutely, yeah.

Dan Pashman: And so the corn was stigmatized and wheat rose in the north, and it became — and that is why we have flour tortillas today.

Steve Alvarez: I mean, really in the metropolitan centers. So that ideology takes hold in Mexico City and it became a way to dip — one's diet that was more wheat-based was the idea you're a higher status in person. Oftentimes tied to race and class as well. But really, it was a way to move away from indigenous cultures, indigenous freeways, and really to start to prize that European way of thinking of, what is human, really. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Despite the complicated history of the flour tortilla, Steve says he loves them. His family is from northern Mexico, so he grew up on his mom’s homemade flour tortillas. I downed my second taco Arabe, and we left Bella Puebla.

Steve Alvarez: All right, so we're going to walk this way to 90th Street. Let's go for this. 

Dan Pashman: Next we arrived at Taqueria Sinaloense. It’s one of the few restaurants in New York that specializes in food from the Mexican state of Sinaloa, which is in the northwest part of the country. There’s a lot of ranching. While we waited for our tacos, I talked with a student named Swani.

Dan Pashman: The next time you sit down to a plate of tacos, what will you be thinking about that you wouldn't have thought about before? 

Swani: The process of how everything was made. I think we take that for granted where it's like, "Oh, the next similization of tortillas... ", and like —  

Dan Pashman: What is the next similization of tortillas? Pop quiz! 

Swani: So, basically, it's where you would get the corn and you would put it in either calcium or limestone and your water. You leave it there, and then the following day you would rinse it out and they do this so it gives nutrition to it and it also prevents people from diseases. And it also gives it flavor and preserves it. And that's where the Europeans, when they took corn back to their homelands, they failed because they noticed everyone was getting sick and dying. 

Dan Pashman: Okay, good job, Swani. You got and A on your pop quiz. 

Swani: Okay. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: I also talk more with Ariana, the Mexican-American student you heard earlier. She's the one who signed up for Steve's class by accident. She's glad now that she did. 

Ariana: I'll definitely be thinking more about the past, you know, of corn. Corn has been something that I've actually written a lot about and done a lot of research on in NAFTA and the importance of corn. 

Dan Pashman: How does NAFTA relate to tacos? 

Ariana: Well, NAFTA — Mexico had to open up its corn sector to foreign imports of corn. So American corn kind of flooded Mexican markets, and it was a lot cheaper. And people who used to be able to make a living off of growing corn could no longer do that. A lot of them actually immigrated to America for opportunities. So and NAFTA had a lot of unintended effects, you know, for Mexicans and Mexico. And also for America, because that's how the — what they call the immigration problem began. That's one of the huge reasons it started. So ... 

Dan Pashman: All right, you passed your test. You got an A. Congratulations, Ariana. 

Ariana: Thanks.

Dan Pashman: Our tacos arrived, and at this place Steve had selected tacos de machaca. Steve read mine to me:

Steve Alvarez: The machaca, because in Sinaloa, a lot of people from the ranch, they would have to preserve their meat by drying it. So this one is egg mixed with dried beef, tomato, and onion on a flour tortilla. Like a breakfast taco. Really, really tasty. 

Dan Pashman: Arianna was excited for this one. She grew up eating machaca, in El Paso, Texas. 

Ariana: So there's actually a cafe that my dad would take me to growing up. He'd take me to school and we'd wake up super early and he'd go to this cafe like every morning, and I would always get the machaca plate. And it's basically, almost like a brisket with scrambled eggs, and they would like slather it in this cheese that was almost like, like a queso that you would dip chips in. So good and definitely not healthy. But so I have a lot of good memories about machaca, so I'm really looking forward to eating it here. 

Dan Pashman: What did you tell your parents about this class? 

Ariana: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: What do they think of it? 

Ariana: I, actually, interviewed my mom about her relationship to Mexican food for an assignment, and she was really into it. So ... 

Dan Pashman: What did you learn from that? 

Ariana: So a lot of people feel like if you grow up and like your parents, for instance, my mom's parents were way too busy working all the time to be able to cook, you know, really traditional foods. So she grew up with a lot of American food, but she later rediscovered how to cook Mexican food, and now she makes it all the time, and I grew up eating it. Yeah, it's just interesting that you can rediscover these things and reconnect to your culture later in life. 

Dan Pashman: The machaca taco was very nice, especially with a few drops of hot sauce on there. But then Steve pulled me aside and told me about the other specialty here: chilorio. Chilorio is pulled pork simmered for hours with hot pepper, a dash of vinegar, and served with refried beans. Steve recommended it in a taco, of course. 

Steve Alvarez: One of my favorites, something that my grandparents used to make. So when I have this here, it just reminds me a lot of going over there because this is kind of really hard food to find in New York. 

Dan Pashman: The chilorios is what your grandparents used to make?

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, Sinaloa food? For sure. It's where my my father's side of the family folks came from. So when I saw this place in my neighborhood, I was really happy and I come here a lot. So ... [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: That is really good. It's great. You get the pork and the pork and the beans make it so smoky. But then also there's like — I think she said, there was vinegar in there? So there's like a little bit of like a vinegar bite, zing, to it. And then the fattiness of the beans and the pork ... Oh my God. 

Dan Pashman: You know, sometimes you don't realize how good something was until days later? During the taco crawl, the tacos Arabes were my favorite. But now looking back, the chilorio is the one that I can't get out of my head. Just the depth of flavors, so much going on. Reading that taco was like reading Moby Dick. Only difference was I, actually, finish the taco. 

Dan Pashman: Thank you, mucho gracias. 

Dan Pashman: From there, we made a quick stop at Nieves Tía Mimi for some Mexican ices. I went in with half mango and red chili, half tamarind. A perfect palate cleanser. It was time now for the final stop of the day, but this one wasn't on Steve's original itinerary. It was my request. Now, I didn't pick it because the tacos themselves — I, actually, never had them. I picked it because I thought the location seemed meaningful. It wasn't in Queens. So Steve, all his students, and I hopped on the subway.

[SUBWAY SOUNDS] 

SUBWAY OPERATOR: This Times Square, 42nd Street. Transfers available to the 1, 2 ...

Dan Pashman: All right you got to be a little more careful here crossing the streets. 

Richey: All right ... 

Dan Pashman: All right, you guys, so we're here in Times Square. The cliche nickname of it is that it's the crossroads of the world. At any given day, there's probably someone from every single state and many countries come through here and there's a taco stand in the middle of Times Square, a taqueria. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, absolutely. 

Dan Pashman: So let's eat some tacos. All right. 

Students: Let's do it! Yeah! 

Dan Pashman: Steve, what can you tell us about this place? 

Steve Alvarez: I have no idea. I have never tried this place. I've seen it around before, but just like you said that it's in Times Square. And it actually is in Spanish, as taqueria, I think is really cool and that it's next to a pizza spot, which I think will give you some indication of what street food in New York is becoming. Dan Pashman: I'm looking at the menu. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Read this menu with me a little bit. 

Steve Alvarez: Sure.The staples, guacamole and chips, chips and salsa. Elote, which is pretty cool option of corn on the cob with chipotle, mayonnaise, and some — well, some cheese on the side, too, there. And then, of course, you can see it in the back hanging out looming is the el pastor, and that looks like a winner ... [LAUGHS] Definitely.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: But I do notice a few curveball ingredients on this menu or I perceive them as curveball. You tell me what you think. The costilla has Thai basil? 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: I see that the pollo has chimichurri, which is an Argentinean — 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Spice often served with steak sauce. 

Steve Alvarez: Right, and one of these quesadillas has arugula in it, as well. 

Dan Pashman: Okay.

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: So it's certainly — there's some upscale, but also some non-Mexican —

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: You know, influences here.

Steve Alvarez: Sure. 

Dan Pashman: What are your thoughts on that? 

Steve Alvarez: I think part of that is is this restaurant is considered modern Mexican food. I mean, we can see some kind of hybridity happening here, and it wouldn't — it makes sense. We're here in the middle of Times Square, so we've got a little bit of everything happening. 

Dan Pashman: Right, right. 

Steve Alvarez: It's cool. 

Dan Pashman: What do you guys think? 

Richey: Amazing.

Dan Pashman: Really?

Richey: Actually, really good. Yeah. 

Swani: I have no words. 

[LAUGHING] 

Swani: I didn't think it was going to be good because we're in Times Square, but this is like a nice surprise. 

Dan Pashman: Ariana, what makes it so good?

Ariana: Mmm. Well, I'm eating the costilla right now, and it's really good. 

Dan Pashman: That's the short rib? The beef?

Ariana: Mm-hmm. It has Thai flavors in it, like it feels like — I don't know, like a ...

Dan Pashman: That's the one with the Thai basil in it. 

Ariana: Mm-hmm.

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Ariana: It's really good. 

Dan Pashman: So you sort of started off taking this class, reconnecting with your Mexican, Mexican-American roots. Now you're ending it, eating a short rib taco in Times Square with Thai basil in it. 

Ariana: Yeah, my ancestors are crying, but it's okay. But I'm loving it.

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Before we wrapped up, I check in with Steve one more time.

Dan Pashman: Often that sort of cross-pollination that happens with food and that's happened with Mexican food in Mexico and in the U.S. is a result of colonialism can be a result of oppression. We talked about corn versus flour tortillas and all that, but you're someone who grew up with flour tortillas. 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: That's like your comfort food. 

Steve Alvarez: Sure.

Dan Pashman: When you eat the food and enjoy it, I mean, how does that factor into it? How — you, personally, how do you process that?  

Steve Alvarez: Well, I mean, it's it goes a couple of ways. One is that I'm the product of colonialism and my identity, it be, as somebody who has mestizo, who has indigenous blood, European blood, African blood. Even people from Spain were already mixed, especially religiously, with people who were of the Muslim faith, Jewish faith and Christian faith before they even came here. And really putting it into a bigger context of thinking about history, people and the movement of people and movement of their food. There's a lot of talk about walls these days, a lot of rhetoric about walls, and what I would say is that number one, walls don't stop people. Walls don't stop languages, and they certainly don't stop food. 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: So wait, wait. Gather around one more time. So, thank you all, first of all, for including me. You guys are fantastic and this was a lot of fun. I was going to say class dismissed, but I feel like Steve should say that. Steve Alvarez: I'm so sad to say that. 

Students: Awwww. 

Steve Alvarez: Well, some people are going to keep eating tacos, so I can't say it's dismissed. But stay in contact with me. Let me know how everything works out. And of course, you got projects due next week, so don't forget for. 

[LAUGHING] 

Steve Alvarez: Yeah, of course. But thank you all. Thank you all for coming, too. Thank you so much. 

Dan Pashman: It was our pleasure. [WHISPERS] Now say, class dismissed. 

Steve Alvarez: Oh! Class dismissed!

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: Do they not say that in college? Probably not. 

Students: No ... 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, no. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: That's Steven Alvarez, associate professor of English at St. John's University in Queens. He'll be teaching that taco literacy course again this spring. If you want to learn more about taco literacy, check out his course website at TacoLiteracy.com. Or if you just want to drool over some pics of good food? Check them out on Instagram @TacoLiteracy. 

Dan Pashman: And a quick update: We originally recorded this episode a few years ago. Since then, sadly, Taquería Sinaloense has closed, but you can still get Sinaloan specialties at a restaurant called Cielito Astoria in Queens. Note to self: go eat there. 

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, I am talking with the one and only Sebastian Maniscalco, one of the biggest comics in the country and now host of the Food Network show Well Done. Sebastian is very opinionated in general, and especially when it comes to hosting or attending a dinner party. 

CLIP (SEBASTIAN MANISCALCO): I don't like when people come to my house with food they made at their house. You know, and they need to explain it to me. And, "Oh, it's a family recipe da, da, da, da, da," — and they're like, "Oh, where should I put it?" And it's like, "By the garbage." No one's going to eat that. It don't go or what I got.

Dan Pashman: That’s next week.