Every other Friday, we reach into our deep freezer and reheat an episode to serve up to you. We're calling these our Reheats. If you have a show you want reheated, send us an email or voice memo at hello@sporkful.com, and include your name, your location, which episode, and why.
The comedy icon discusses the role food can play in comedy and drama. Plus, he tells us why learning a new part is like eating spaghetti and how he reacts when people in the audience bring food into the theater.
This episode originally aired on October 30, 2017, and was produced by Dan Pashman, Anne Saini, with editing by Dan Charles. The Sporkful team now includes Dan Pashman, Emma Morgenstern, Andres O'Hara, Nora Ritchie, and Jared O'Connell. This update was produced by Gianna Palmer. Publishing by Shantel Holder and transcription by Emily Ng.
Interstitial music in this episode by Black Label Music:
- "Sun So Sunny" by Calvin Dashielle
- "Hip Hop Slidester" by Steve Pierson
- "Stay For The Summer" by William Van De Crommert
- "Summertime Delight" by Colin Schwanke
- “Soul Good” by Lance Conrad
Photo courtesy of Cooking Channel and Michael McKean
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View Transcript
Dan Pashman: Hi everybody, it’s Dan here. I hope you had a fantastic and delicious Thanksgiving. Hey, hot tip, by the way, a lot of bakeries, the day after Thanksgiving, sells pies half off. Janie actually wants to celebrate Thanksgiving a day late, just so that we can save on pie.
Dan Pashman: Anyway, this week’s Reheat is a conversation with Michael McKean, who in addition to being a great actor, is a kindred spirit when it comes to his strong opinions about food. As you’ll hear, we go deep on everything from Chicago Italian beef to the best way to cut a sandwich.
Dan Pashman: Now, Michael McKean is a prolific performer, so it is not surprising that he has stayed busy since we last spoke. In fact, he was just announced to be reuniting on Broadway with his onscreen brother, Bob Odenkirk, from Better Call Saul. You can catch them in a revival of David Mamet’s Glengarry Glen Ross. That opens next spring.
Dan Pashman: Remember, if there's an older episode of The Sporkful that you want us to pull out of the deep freezer and reheat, drop us a line! I want to hear from you! Send me an email or voice memo to hello@sporkful.com — include your first name, location, the episode you want to hear, and why. All right, enjoy Michael McKean.
Dan Pashman: You recently tweeted, "It's five minutes to curtain — Broadway — women two seats down just opened [Michael McKean: Ohh.] her hot lunch to go box ... How shall I kill her?" [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: Yes, I ... I may have overstated. Listen ...
Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: If I weren't essentially Gandhi ..
Dan Pashman: Right ...
Michael McKean: I would have thrown her right over the balcony railing …
Dan Pashman: This is actor Michael McKean. He's been in Spinal Tap, Better Call Saul, and about a million other TV shows, plays and movies. He's married to actress Annette O'Toole.
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): My wife was doing The Seagull. It's a tiny theater and the people in the front row are right there. They are, you know, spitting distance from the actors. And she said, "One time, a woman came with a bucket of KFC ... [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] put it on the floor .... And it's just like, [SIGHS] what do you do? What do you do?"
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): Right.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: Today on The Sporkful, I sit down with Michael McKean. From Spinal Tap to Best in Show from Curb Your Enthusiasm to Drunk History to Better Call Saul and so many more, he’s a comedy icon and a great actor. We’ll talk about the role food can play in drama, and comedy, including how to get pied.
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): It's fun to get hit with a pie. [LAUGHS] You know? I've only taken a few in my life but it's always edifying.
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): Is there an art to taking a pie in the face?
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): Yes, and it's imperturbability.
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): [LAUGHING]
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): It's like ... Your attitude ... Once you've had a pie in the face, your attitude has to be, "I see your point ..."
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): Right. [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: Plus, we’ll find out what Michael’s approach to a meal can tell us about his approach to acting:
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): So it's as if the dialogue is the spaghetti and the monologues are the meatballs.
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): Very good.
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): [LAUGHS]
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): I hadn't thought about that but that's very true.
Dan Pashman: That’s all coming up, stick around.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies, it’s for eaters. I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. Michael McKean got his first big break playing Lenny on the classic sitcom Laverne and Shirley. Then in 1984, he became comedy royalty when he starred in the mockumentary This Is Spinal Tap:
CLIP (IAN FAITH): Like in the world of rock and roll, there are certain changes that sometimes occur. Six months from now, I can't see myself missing Nig anymore than I might miss Ross MacLochness, so only putting — or Danny Schindler, or any of those ...
CLIP (PERSON): I can't believe it. You're lumping Nigel in with these people you played with for a short period of time.
CLIP (IAN FAITH): Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren’t under such heavy sedation …
Dan Pashman: Since then, he’s been in so many TV shows, movies, and plays, I don't even know where to begin. And he does drama too. In the Breaking Bad spinoff Better Call Saul, he plays Chuck McGill, brother to main character Jimmy McGill.
Dan Pashman: And Michael hosts a show on Cooking Channel called Food: Fact or Fiction. In it, he explores questions like: Is breakfast really the most important meal of the day? And so noodles taste better when you slurp? Actually, I’m in the show too. Michael often turns to different people to provide the answers to these questions, which is where I come in. Although the way the show is filmed, we had never met in person before this interview.
Dan Pashman: Anyway, Michael doesn’t just perform in the theater. He’s often in the audience, which is where he was recently when, like he said, a person in his row opened up a to go box right before a show was starting.
Michael McKean: And then I smell something. It's like, "Why am I smelling Italian food?"
Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: And then I realize that, you know, chow time. And it's not just cause I'm an actor. You know, it's just sort of, like, maybe a Broadway theater isn't where you're supposed to eat.
Dan Pashman: And it's also the odor!
Michael McKean: Yes, exactly.
Dan Pashman: Like the smell, that's ... That is ... You know, it's such a sensory experience. We actually did an episode about — recently, about food in theater. I don't know if you saw that Sweeney Todd production ...
Michael McKean: No, I hadn't seen it yet. No, no.
Dan Pashman: But you've heard about it I'm sure [Michael McKean: Yeah, yeah.] as a theater person, where they serve meat pies [Michael McKean: Yes.] before the play begins, [Michael McKean: Yeah.] and they've done it up as you're, like, in a meat pie shop in London. So in that case, the smell is part of the show.
Michael McKean: That's part of it. I did Our Town in that same theater ...
Dan Pashman: Oh, they did that bacon, right?
Michael McKean: David Cromer’s with the bacon. When that bacon hits the ... hits the audience in that amazing moment, when the ...
Dan Pashman: Tell folks, for folks who don't know the show ...
Michael McKean: Well, the show, traditionally, should be in with bare stage, minimal sets, just tables and chairs really, and one of the characters at the beginning of Act III is revealed that one of the characters that we had been following has died in childbirth and now she is among the dead. So, then this character gets a chance to go back for a day and be with her family for a day or pick a day in her life. Now, in the traditional versions of the play, it continues along these lines but in the David Cromer's production, a curtain is pulled back revealing a completely naturalistic kitchen, turn of the century kitchen with a working stove and mom is making bacon and eggs. [SIGHS] It hits you like a wave. You know, it kind of sums up the whole play until this moment. Your mouth is watering [LAUGHS] and your eyes are watering ...
Dan Pashman: Right, right. The intensity [Michael McKean: Yeah.] in that kind of food memory and nostalgia ...
Michael McKean: Right. Do you know, there was an experiment done [LAUGHS] years ago, probably a hundred years ago, I believe it was a Broadway play, that had as one of it's themes a certain perfume from Paris, that a certain lady walks in and — oh, we know from — ohh, it's gonna an interactive theater a hundred years ago. And so opening night, something went wrong and the perfume started billowing out of the vents [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] like people were getting misted by it.
Dan Pashman: Oh no. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: And it was so intense and the air was so rare that people vomiting ...
Dan Pashman: Oh god! [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: They didn't finish the show.
Dan Pashman: Right.
Michael McKean: Opening night, they ran for half a performance [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHING] because people were puking all over each other.
Dan Pashman: That's some verite right there.
Michael McKean: Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, yeah.
[LAUGHING]
Dan Pashman: You said that your comfort food is spaghetti and meatballs.
Michael McKean: Yeah, yeah.
Dan Pashman: Do you try to get meatball in every bite? How do you combine the spaghetti with the meatballs?
Michael McKean: Uh, I kind of work the spaghetti and sauce a while, just while eyeing the meatballs, like they're, you know ...
Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: The Easter eggs we're saving for tomorrow?
Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: And then I start kind of carving off a bit with a — I've worked it out. It's funny now that I'm thinking about it, I don't want to think about it.
Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: But what happens is ...
[LAUGHING]
Michael McKean: What happens is I wind up to really kind of — I'm very democratic about it and the plate gets pretty clean by the end.
Dan Pashman: You're democratic about it. What are the constituencies that you're worried about treating democratically on the plate?
Michael McKean: I just don't want to run out of either one ...
Dan Pashman: Oh, okay.
Michael McKean: Until the meal is done.
Dan Pashman: So you would rather not have meatball in the first bite ...
Michael McKean: Right.
Dan Pashman: In order to make sure you have meatball in the last bite.
Michael McKean: Yes, absolutely right. That's very, very good. Very well said.
Dan Pashman: Got it. I understand.
Michael McKean: Mm-hmm.
Dan Pashman: And do you feel like you're typically a sort of a delayed gratification kind of person?
Michael McKean: Maybe? Maybe, yeah. I have been known to unwrap a whole roll of Necco wafers and just keep the kind of the violet ones, which are pepson, or something ...
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: Some strange flavor. I keep them over to one side and then I like them toward the end, finished with a white, just for a palette cleanser. [LAUGHS] I don't know! I've never talked about this before.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: But I think I really do that. I really ...
Dan Pashman: There's a methodical nature, it sounds like.
Michael McKean: I think so, yeah. And I don't think about it but it just seems to happen that way.
Dan Pashman: Is that at all similar to your approach to acting?
Michael McKean: Huh? No, I don't think so.
Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: Because I think what has to happen with any — if you're playing a part, you really have to digest the whole thing and then figure out the basics, figure out what your character wants and what lengths he's willing to go to to attain those goals. So you can't do that by saving the last bit till the end. There have been times when I've had a lot to say, when I'm in the process of memorizing, for example, I will save a big, big chunk, that I know has a slightly different rhythm than the rest of the play and I'll rehearse dialogue and other things and rehearse my beats and figure out what I'm doing, but I will take this half page here that I got to say very rapidly. I did Johnathn Lynn's Yes Prime Minister in Los Angeles. Between me and Dakin Matthews, we had so much to say and I would say, "Okay, Jonathon, we're gonna run everything, but when we get to here, I'm gonna have to pick up the paper, cause I haven't really figured out how to that a oner, rather than, you know, [Dan Pashman: Right.] in pieces.
Dan Pashman: So it's as if the dialogue is the spaghetti and the monologues are the meatballs.
Michael McKean: Very good.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: I hadn't thought about that but that's very true.
Dan Pashman: All right.
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: You did a Reddit AMA and you said that you cut your sandwiches diagonally.
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: Why?
Michael McKean: Well, actually, I always did it cause I thought it was kind of more stylish, you know? Cut it down the middle and it's just two rectangles. But if you cut it on the angle, it kind of looks like a superhero insignia. You know? There's something kind of really sleek and cool about it. But it turns out, you actually get more flavor that way. There's just more of the good stuff exposed.
Dan Pashman: Right, you get more, like, straight on the interior type of bites.
Michael McKean: That's right. And also, if you put that point in your mouth, ohh, you're a third done, you know?
Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: Yeah, you're living large.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] So a sandwich that's sliced on a diagonal, you have a half in your hand, it's a triangle.
Michael McKean: Right.
Dan Pashman: Do you take the first bite into one of those acute angles?
Michael McKean: Yeah, I take a corner.
Dan Pashman: Not the hypotenuse? You don't start on the hypotenuse?
Michael McKean: No, I take a corner and then what is exposed is huge.
Dan Pashman: Right.
Michael McKean: Yeah. Yes, it's continental.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: And so then the next bite, which is kind of right into the fleshy part, oh, you're living.
Dan Pashman: See, I think that there is some connection between your approach to food and your approach to acting. Not only in the ...
Michael McKean: It's possible.
Dan Pashman: The way you memorize lines, because you say that some of these things you hadn't thought about before, but then it turns out you have a real process.
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: So there's something sort of that's both methodical and unconscious.
Michael McKean: Boy, well that describes acting, you know? Cause what you have to do in acting is learn all the stuff that's on the page and everything that you've picked up in rehearsal and then completely forget it and play the moment. It is no longer a script, it is your intent vocalized or physicalized in movement. You are a person who doesn't have a script. You are a person who is living this for the first time. So that's actually very accurate. I hadn't thought about it before.
Dan Pashman: All right.
Michael McKean: But that's true. Thank you, Dan Pashman.
Dan Pashman: My pleasure. Glad I could help. [LAUGHS] Maybe now you can just forget this whole acting thing and use all your talents for eating?
Michael McKean: I have forgotten this interview already.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: That's how good I am!
[LAUGHING]
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: Coming up, my conversation with Michael McKean continues. He’ll explain how an acting gig in Chicago introduced him to a new food:
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): And you can get either Chicago-style hot dog or the Italian beef.
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): Mmm.
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): The Italian beef, which I first kind of heard about ...
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): You slipped into a Chicago accent the way you just said Italian beef.
CLIP (MICHAEL MCKEAN): Yeah, Italian beef. Italian beef. Yeah, I do that.
CLIP (DAN PASHMAN): [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: Plus, we’ll look at the role food plays in Spinal Tap and Better Call Saul. And, is breakfast the most important meal of the day? I’ll tell you. Stick around.
MUSIC
+++BREAK+++
Dan Pashman: It's very important to me to support small businesses in general and especially in my own community. The small businesses in your neighborhood or town or city are what make that place "The place". I go to my local coffee shop, I know the owners. I see friends and neighbors in there, I get my coffee. Want to meet up with a friend for a drink? We're gonna hit up a local spot. My favorite gift to anyone who lives nearby is a gift card to one of our favorite small businesses in town. The small businesses around you are a huge part of your life and your community. And so to me, when I support them, it's not just about having a local friendly face, it's also an investment in my community. When you shop at a local spot, you're helping to keep jobs around, you're investing in your community and you're bringing life to your main streets. You know, there's something really special about walking down a busy main street, looking in store windows, feeling the vibe of the area, and knowing that this place is unique to you and your community in where you live. You have the power to support all of that. And on Saturday, November 30th, you can support your local community when you shop small on Small Business Saturday, founded by American Express.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. And if you're like me, you're looking for some Black Friday, Cyber Monday deals right now. You know what I'm saying? Well, guess what? I got a great one for you and, of course, it involves pasta. Sfoglini is offering 20% off all my pastas. That's cascatelli, quattrotini, and vesuvio. You can get six packs of any of them. You can get the variety pack with all of them. They're also doing a big discount on the special set — that's one box each of my three pastas, plus a copy of cookbook, Anything's Pastable, which of course, makes for a great holiday gift. So get on it while the getting's good. There is no minimum. There is no code needed. Just go to the website and the discount will be applied. All those deals are at Sfoglini.com — that's S-F-O-G-L-I-N-I .com.
Dan Pashman: Now back to this week's Reheat. Let’s get back to my conversation with Michael McKean.
Dan Pashman: As I said, the movie This Is Spinal Tap made Michael comedy royalty. It’s a faux documentary about a fictional rock band. In the most famous food-related scene, lead guitarist Nigel Tufnel, played by Christopher Guest, has a meltdown backstage because the catering platter displeases him. The meats are sliced too big, he says, to fit on the little cocktail breads and he complains to the band’s manager…
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): Look. This. This miniature bread, it's like I've been working with this now for about half an hour and I can't figure out — let's say I want a bite, right? You got this ...
CLIP (IAN FAITH): You'd like bigger bread?
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): Exactly. I don't understand how it's like ...
CLIP (IAN FAITH): You could fold this down.
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): Well, no, then it's half the size.
CLIP (IAN FAITH): Don't half the bread, just fold the meat.
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): But then if you keep folding it, it keeps breaking ...
CLIP (IAN FAITH): Well, why would you keep folding it?
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): And then everything has to be folded, so it's a complete catastrophe.
CLIP (IAN FAITH): No, you're right. Nigel, Nigel, calm down.
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): I mean don't — calm — look, it's not a big deal.
CLIP (IAN FAITH): I'm sorry.
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): It's a joke. It's really ... It's all I ...
CLIP (IAN FAITH): I don't want it to affect your performance, all right?
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): It's going to affect my performance.
CLIP (IAN FAITH): All right.
CLIP (NIGEL TUFNEL): Don't worry about it, all right? I just hate it. Really, it doesn't disturb me but I rise above it. I'm a professional, right?
CLIP (IAN FAITH): Right.
Dan Pashman: Michael’s character in Spinal Tap is lead singer David St. Hubbins. He’s a parody of the kind of rock star who’s always into the latest trend in new age spirituality, even though he’s not so bright and doesn’t really understand it. I asked Michael, if David St. Hubbins were around today, an aging rock star, what would he be eating?
Michael McKean: Well, he would be a strict vegan, I think.
Dan Pashman: Yes. Yes.
Michael McKean: Yeah, and so a lot of wheatgrass ...
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: I'm just making fun. My son is a vegan. My son's been a vegan. He's 30, it's most of his life, he's been a vegan, and he's very healthy. You know? I have a feeling [LAUGHS] that David would accept the fact that he's hungry all the time as proof that he's doing it right.
Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: So ... [LAUGHS] You know, which is something that would have occurred to me, but ...
Dan Pashman: I feel like he might also be the type who would go to all of the fanciest farm-to-table restaurants ...
Michael McKean: Ah.
Dan Pashman: You know the types of people who go to those restaurants as a sort of status symbol?
Michael McKean: Right.
Dan Pashman: That are in the pissing contest [Michael McKean: Yes.] of which restaurant they've been to?
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: And he would brag about having been to all those restaurants, but yet he wouldn't really understand anything that he had eaten. [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: I think that's very true. Yeah.
Dan Pashman: Food offers a lot of opportunities for comedy. I mean, just ask Weird Al. I asked Michael why he thinks that is:
Michael McKean: Because it's universal. That's why sex is funny. That's why farting is funny. [LAUGHS] You know, because these are — this makes us all equal to some extent and there's something exhilarating — unless you're a complete idiot, there's something exhilarating about, you know, having it verified that you're a human being and that we're all the same race, you know? We're all hungry.
Dan Pashman: Food can also serve a dramatic purpose. I’m a big fan of the show Better Call Saul, that’s the Breaking Bad spin-off, and Michael is so good in that show. He plays the brilliant attorney, Chuck McGill. And Chuck was once very successful, happily married, but now he’s a divorced shut-in. He’s convinced that he has a hypersensitivity to electricity, so he can’t be around light bulbs, cell phones, any of that stuff. He mostly stays at home and lives by candlelight.
CLIP (CHUCK MCGILL): I am not crazy! I know he swapped those numbers. I knew it was 1216! I just couldn't prove it! He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was nine, always the same. Couldn't keep his hands out of the cash drawer. "But not our Jimmy! Couldn't be precious Jimmy!" Stealing them blind. And he gets to be a lawyer?! What a sick joke!
Dan Pashman: I feel like food is sometimes used as a way to mark where your character Chuck is ...
Michael McKean: Hm.
Dan Pashman: In relation to his mental health.
Michael McKean: Right. Well, because his cooking with something that was always very proud of. We don't see a ton of this. You know, we see it in a flashback, I think, in the second season?
Dan Pashman: Yeah, there might even be more than one flashback where he's kind of hosting a dinner party ...
Michael McKean: Right, right, right. That's true, yeah. And he's the guy who's in charge — he'll do the fish. His wife, also a cook, and it was really kind of something they did together, maybe something that brought them together — we don't know that. Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that that's one of the things that was taken away from him by this ailment, which is, or is not, psychosomatic. We never really, really nail it down. I think it's revealed, I think, that there's an emotional element to this genuine pain that he is feeling. You know, then you get into a whole nother thing. You know, somebody mentioned something — talked about how do you play mental deterioration like you did. And I said I didn't play mental deterioration, I fought it. You know? It's a different thing. It's, oh, please, don't let me go crazy. That's not something you can play. You can pray it, but you can't play it. It's the same thing with crying, you know? How do you cry in a scene? How do you not? If what you're going through is making that character bringing that level of sadness, unless you're gonna be just a puddle of tears on the floor, fighting it is your active — that's your action. So I think what happened in the case of Chuck McGill was that was one of the things that was taken from him.
Dan Pashman: Oh, and there's flashback scenes where he is — he's got a bottle of wine, he's got multiple pots going ...
Michael McKean: Right, right.
Dan Pashman: He's reducing his sauce ...
Michael McKean: And he's good at it.
Dan Pashman: Right. He clearly knows what he's doing in the kitchen.
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: And then you see him in the present day and you know, it's really kind of poignant when Jimmy, or later it's the assistant from the office ...
Michael McKean: Yes.
Dan Pashman: Who shows up with a cooler full of ice and, like, a package of Oscar Meyer bologna.
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: And you think of, like, Chuck eating bologna from the supermarket when he was [Michael McKean: Yeah.] you know, spent three hours reducing tomato sauce ...
Michael McKean: That's right.
Dan Pashman: In a previous life.
Michael McKean: Yeah. As far as food and emotions — and those connections are very important and it's not always ... It's not always noticeable. A lovely movie called Fatso, directed by Ann Bancroft, with Dom DeLuise — there's a scene when something terrible is happening. He's lost a family member or something and he's just crushed and he's just sobbing. He's all alone in the kitchen. And he's sobbing and while he's sobbing, he looks over and there's the spaghetti sauce that's he's boiling [LAUGHS] on the stove and without breaking stride, he picks up a piece of bread [LAUGHS] and tries the sauce, bites into it, still crying, chews it a little bit, add some salt ...
[LAUGHING]
Michael McKean: And it's a beautiful scene because it is ... it is food as emotion and emotion as food.
Dan Pashman: Michael says sometimes working on a part has introduced him to new foods. In 2008, he starred in a play called Superior Donuts, which was first staged in Chicago, where the play takes place. Michael’s character was an old Chicago guy.
Michael McKean: So he had a line — it was such a Chicago line — and he's talking about his ulcer. "I got an ulcer. Yeah. You know, I say it's from stress. My wife says it's from smoking cigars and eating Italian beef ..."
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: And so I say, "What is this Italian beef?" And Tracy Letts, the writer who is a native Oklahoman but ...
Dan Pashman: He's sort of adopted Chicago ...
Michael McKean: Oh yeah.
Dan Pashman: Right.
Michael McKean: He's Chicago through and through.
Dan Pashman: And he wrote August: Osage County…
Michael McKean: Right.
Dan Pashman: He's in Homeland ...
Michael McKean: Brilliant guy and you know, a good pal. He says, "Oh, Italian beef — oh my god. It's incredible." And he says, "All right, I'm taking you out to lunch." And we're still in Chicago, and he goes to uptown Chicago, which is where our play takes place, and he takes me to this place. He says, "Yeah, there's three great places. This is probably the best."
Dan Pashman: Chicago Italian beef, just so you know, is roast beef on a soft roll, served with au jus. And if you want, they’ll dip the entire sandwich, bread and all, into the vat of glorious meat juice.
Michael McKean: And we went there and it was just pretty stunning. So now I get that when I go to taste Chicago cause that's the goods.
Dan Pashman: Don't you feel like more sandwiches should be dipped in delicious juices?
Michael McKean: Uh, yeah.
Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]
Michael McKean: I do. I do. Yeah.
Dan Pashman: Like isn't that a problem in the world?
Michael McKean: Yeah, and it's funny, I've never been a huge French dip guy, but a really good French dip sandwich gets close to the Italian beef sandwich.
Dan Pashman: Right. And actually speaking of French dips, that's one of my segments in this coming season ...
Michael McKean: That's correct!
Dan Pashman: Of Food: Fact or Fiction is about who invented the French dip.
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: And actually, it was some French guy, sort of like a rivalry of French restaurants in L.A.
Michael McKean: In Los Angeles, yeah.
Dan Pashman: As I told Michael, one of the things I like about working on Food: Fact or Fiction is that I’ve learned so much about food history and culture. In particular, I’m repeatedly struck by how often marketing, or even propaganda, ends up working its way into conventional wisdom.
Dan Pashman: The segment of the ones that I've done for the show that has stuck with me the most was about that the idea that breakfast is the most important meal of the day.
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: And this guy, Bernaise, who was [Michael McKean: Right.] sort of one of the original marketing gurus of the early 20th century ...
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: He was the guy who came up with, you know, that old trope "Four out of five doctors agree ..."
Michael McKean: Yes. [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: That was his — he invented that. And he was hired to — by Beech-Nut to sell more bacon.
Michael McKean: Right.
Dan Pashman: And so he went to a bunch of doctors and said, do you agree that a hearty breakfast is better than a small breakfast? And they were like, yeah, sure.
Michael McKean: [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: And don't you think bacon and eggs is a hearty breakfast? And they were like, yeah, I suppose it is.
Michael McKean: [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: And it was like [IMITATES HORNS PLAYING AN ANNOUNCEMENT] ...
Michael McKean: I know.
Dan Pashman: Breakfast is the most important meal of the day. And it was like all these newspapers picked it up like it was scientific research.
Michael McKean: Yeah. [LAUGHS]
Dan Pashman: I got a daughter who's in first grade.
Michael McKean: Yeah.
Dan Pashman: She came home from school and she said, "Did you know that breakfast is the most important meal of the day?"
Michael McKean: It won't ever go away. No.
Dan Pashman: I was like, "Get me the principal!"
[LAUGHING]
Michael McKean: No, it's true. A lot of those things are about marketing. One thing that I really kind of am tickled by is when there's something benign in the world that is expressed through food or kind of a food will be associated or aligned with something a positive movement — the jelly doughnuts providing, you know, work for people who didn't have work.
Dan Pashman: Right.
Michael McKean: And being, you know, a part of a Hannakah celebration, for example.
Dan Pashman: Another segment from Food: Fact or Fiction that Michael found moving was about Brooklyn Blackout Cake. That cake was invented by a local bakery during World War II. Back then people who lived near the Brooklyn waterfront had to do blackout drills. They turned their lights off so ships could take off from the Navy Yard undetected and that gave rise to Brooklyn Blackout Cake.
Michael McKean: If you associate this comforting beautiful food, like a really, really good chocolate cake with — out of the necessity of war, we're kind of doing a joke on the dark here. We're kind of showing that there is an element of fear, there's an element of terror, but let's eat because it's time for dessert and we've made coffee.
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Dan Pashman: That’s actor Michael McKean. He has been and is in so many things I don’t even know how to begin listing them all. But please do make sure you check out the show we’re both in, it’s called Food: Fact or Fiction on Cooking Channel. A new season just began. We're gonna be covering topics like: How did grilled cheese and tomato soup become a thing? Do noodles taste better when you slurp? And is corned beef and cabbage really Irish?
Dan Pashman: Again, the show is Food: Fact or Fiction, it airs on Cooking Channel Sunday nights at 10 P.M. Eastern, 7 P.M. Pacific.
Dan Pashman: And hey, did you know that you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? Then there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to SiriusXM.com/sporkful.
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Dan Pashman: Coffee, dinner, even just a quick bite to eat — you can help your community thrive one small purchase at a time when you shop small on Small Business Saturday, founded by American Express. See you around on November 30th.
