Jaya Saxena: My brief time as a waitress, I worked at a restaurant that served only, like, dessert cocktails, and every single one of them was served in the shallowest martini glass you can imagine. 

[LAUGHING] 

Jaya Saxena: It was basically a plate on the end of a stem. And I was so bad at this, and I don't think I ever didn't spill a cocktail. And it was a nightmare. And then one day I went to work and discovered that the restaurant had shut down, and I was like, "You know what? Good. I can't do this anymore."

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And today, we're climbing back in the Salad Spinner for a year end edition. It's a rapid fire roundtable discussion of the biggest, strangest, and most surprising food stories from the past year. And I can't do something like this alone, you know that. So, joining me in the spinner are two very special guests. First, here in New York, we have Jaya Saxena, correspondent at Eater, whose essay about the future of food was in this year's Best American Food Writing. Congrats, Jaya, and hello! 

Jaya Saxena: Hi. Thank you so much.

Dan Pashman: And in L.A. we have our old friend Zach Stafford, one of the hosts of the podcast Vibe Check. You've heard him here on the podcast with his friends from Vibe Check. Earlier this year, we went deep on Chipotle bowls, along with some other very pressing issues. Hello again, Zach!

Zach Stafford: Hi, thank you for having me and thank you for making Chipotle a part of my life forever.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Was it not already?

Zach Stafford: It was. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Later on, we're going to get into some of the more absurd and silly stories of the year. I'll even subject both of you to a lightning round. But before that, let's start off with some of the biggest food stories of the year. All right, it's time to crank up the salad spinner.

[SALAD SPINNER] 

Dan Pashman: Jaya, let's start with you. What's your pick for the biggest food story of the year?

Jaya Saxena: I think the biggest food story, or at least maybe the biggest food trend, is we really hit peak maximalist dining. You know, this was something that was really starting the last couple years, but I think it came to a head this year in a way that maybe people are starting to get sick of it. You look at so many restaurants that people are talking about, and it's these things that have, you know, almost really absurd presentations, it feels like everything is being served tableside, everything is designed to film on TikTok. You know, you have cocktails being made with 18 different ingredients. Everything was just big and loud and weird, and that was the vibe.

Dan Pashman: Zach, have you seen this trend?

Zach Stafford: Oh yeah. I think it's just feeding into this long standing trend that we've all decided that we're marketers for restaurants at all times and the restaurants are responding accordingly, where they're creating these really dazzling visual meals that you're supposed to take a picture of and promote and get out there in the world ... but don't always taste that great. 

Jaya Saxena: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: This is not just like a trendy, fancy restaurants in major cities trend. I've seen this out in the distant suburbs of Long Island where I live. I was at a place called the Last Word in Huntington that had every drink involved some sort of like two to three step process. There was like a giant beaker full of like — it looked like dry ice, but then I'd heard it was like cucumber foam or something. 

Zach Stafford: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: It was being poured. There was another drink that came with like a sprig of rosemary that was half on fire, which set off my allergies, but anyway ...

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: But It was fun. I do like ... Like I'm sure that you're right that part of this is just sort of, hey, let's get people to put this on social media. But I do wonder if there's some other sort of commentary on like where we're at in culture. You know, for a long time that we were talking about, there was a move away from fine dining. It was sort of towards comfort food. 

Jaya Saxena: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: And it was very much like, you know, you could go out to a nice restaurant, but you'd still be wearing jeans and eating mac and cheese and fried chicken. Then there was COVID and that was just sort of like bleak all around. And now it seems like this new phase says something about where we're at, Jaya.

Jaya Saxena: Yeah, I think it's interesting because you know "post pandemic" you had a lot of people who really wanted to go out, who really wanted to experience something that they were not getting cooking in their own home. They wanted something big and new and that felt like, yes, I have to go out. I have to be in this specific space to experience it. I do think that really was sort of this pandemic thing, where people are saying, "Nothing gets set on fire in my house when I'm cooking. And nothing is .... "

Dan Pashman: Right, we want more things set on fire. Right. 

[LAUGHING] 

Jaya Saxena: More than set on fire. 

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Jaya Saxena: You know, nothing is performed for me. There is nobody here that's composing a dish in front of me, except for me.

Zach Stafford: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Pashman: Right. And that's another part of the trend you're talking about. It's a lot of like table side things .... like bananas foster. They're going to light the rum on fire at the table. I love things done tableside. When I was a waiter [Jaya Saxena: Yeah.] at Legal Seafoods, we used to do Dover sole fileted tableside. And I sold the shit out of some Dover sole. 

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: And I would filet that at the table, and you put on a big show and people just love it. It's like you're putting on a little show. Zach, if you could have something, some dish prepared and presented tableside to you, what would it be?

Zach Stafford: Oh my gosh, a big show. I don't ... I don't know. I can't think of anything. I want to say like some crazy ... Well, actually, no. I do know. I do know. Have you you seen on TikTok ... 

Dan Pashman: Okay. [LAUGHS] 

Zach Stafford: There is this bodega, I think it's in New York City, where they make the wildest breakfast sandwiches and they make them out of pancakes. So the outside is like pancakes and they'll put cereal in it and they'll just put — it's like everything. I like a maximalist breakfast sandwich. So I would totally do that table side ,where you make the most ridiculous sandwiches for me in real time and I get to see the engineering of the sandwich. Cause Dan, you and I talked about that recently over lunch in New York, it's about the engineering of sandwiches [Dan Pashman: Yes, a massive topic.] and how that's like a really part of what makes a sandwich. So I would love to see like master sandwich makers make me something wild table side.

Dan Pashman: Oh, I love that. I would love it if they had a flat top griddle on wheels. And the person who came out should be, like, making the pancakes and the eggs and stuff on this portable flat top.

Zach Stafford: Yes, 100 percent.

Jaya Saxena: Ooh. That sounds amazing. I just love the — now I'm stuck on the idea of a portable flattop griddle because if I could bring like a diner griddle with me everywhere I go ... 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Zach Stafford: Yes.

Jaya Saxena: Like, I would buy that in a second. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: One that I've always wanted to do, I think I might've mentioned this in the show a couple years back, but I still ... I'm still on it. Table side Rice Krispie Treats.

Zach Stafford: Oh, yes.

Jaya Saxena: Ooh. 

Zach Stafford: Yes. Yes.

Dan Pashman: Because the best bite of rice krispie treats are when you scrape out the bottom of the pot when it's still warm, so I would want to make an individual serving, like in a mini All Clad pot on a little mini burner. [Jaya Saxena: Ohh.] And then you just put the pot down in front of the person and serve it to them with a wooden spoon and you eat the rice crispy treat right out of the pot with a wooden spoon.

Zach Stafford: That's amazing. I would totally go to your restaurant and have table side rice krispie treats. 

[LAUGHING] 

Zach Stafford: I'm, like, so excited about this idea. That is so cool.

Dan Pashman: All right. Let's spin that salad spinner.

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT] 

Dan Pashman: Zach, how about you? What is your pick for biggest food story of the year?

Zach Stafford: Okay, so my biggest food story is one that I am shocked that it still becomes a topic at dinner parties here in Los Angeles at least. And it's the story of the restaurant Horses here in Los Angeles.

Jaya Saxena: [GASPS] Yes. [LAUGHS] 

Zach Stafford: And not only the details that came out through the story, which is a story of two people, the owners, who were married and their very messy divorce where allegations were spewed that included one of the owners killing cats, maybe even at the restaurant ....

Dan Pashman: Yes, I remember this story. Horses — so it's this hot L.A. restaurant where this husband and wife owners who are also the chefs [Zach Stafford: Yes.], and they started filing restraining orders against each other. The husband is accused of abuse, and yes, of killing the family pets.

Jaya Saxena: [GASPS] 

Dan Pashman: There’s a lot going on here. 

Zach Stafford: The family cats. The family cats were being killed. And there's been a restraining order on the husband from being close to the dogs. Like, there's lots of animal cruelty stuff that is wild in the allegations. But what I have found shocking is that L. A. people love fame so much that they were flocking to the restaurant in the wake of this. Like, I heard this news of like cats being killed, animals being hurt and thought, "Oh, I'm never going to Horses again." But no, the lines were down the block in the wake of this. And I just think it's wild that the restaurant continues to be incredibly successful even though it's so controversial these days. And there’s even — you know, they may open a restaurant in New York still. We don’t know, but it's just an amazing, amazing story. 

Dan Pashman: By they, you mean the couple? 

Zach Stafford: The couple. 

Dan Pashman: They’re still working together despite being divorced and despite there being a restraining order in place? 

Zach Stafford: The owners, as I looked at the details today, the judge recently — and this was in June of 2023, there's a restraining order between the both of them. They have to stay 100 feet away unless they're in a restaurant working together, which can be 10 feet away. So it does appear that they're doing some sort of business together?

Dan Pashman: Unless they're in a place full of giant knives.

Zach Stafford: Yes. 

[LAUGHING] 

Jaya Saxena: I remember hearing that detail that they had this restraining order, but they were still allowed to work in the same restaurant kitchen. And I am trying to imagine, not knowing what the size of this kitchen is, them trying to dance around each other, [Zach Stafford: Yeah.] maintaining 10 feet while executing dinner service. And, it's just like, why would you want to do this?

Dan Pashman: For my pick for biggest food story of the year, I'm actually going to pick two stories that I see a connection between that I think say something larger and I would love to hear both of your thoughts. So over the summer, Dave Portnoy, founder of Barstool Sports, which he sold for hundreds of millions of dollars, also a person who has a history of misogynistic and racist remarks and sexual misconduct accusations against him — he's also probably the internet's most influential pizza reviewer because he does these one bite pizza reviews on YouTube that get bazillions of clicks and can turn around a pizzeria's fortunes overnight.

Dan Pashman: He has also, I should say, gotten pushback. The owner of a pizzeria in the Boston area criticized him on camera. They got into a heated argument that went viral. Our friend, Kenji Lopez-Alt, has also publicly criticized Portnoy on social media for his history of sexual misconduct allegations. And in September, Dave Portnoy put together a pizza festival, where he publicly cursed out Kenji, as well as The Washington Post, for writing negatively about him. The pizza festival was heavily attended by his many fans. So that’s the first story: Dave Portnoy the pizza influencer.

Dan Pashman: Also this summer, The New York Times put out a story about some men who feel cocktail glasses are too feminine. 

[LAUGHING] 

Zach Stafford: Really? 

Dan Pashman: Yes, this is apparently — bartenders are speaking out that some men order a drink off the menu and they don't realize that it was going to come in some sort of a long stemmed with an umbrella on it or whatever else. It's going to be too colorful. They have actually sent it back and asked it to be transferred to a different glass, usually a rocks glass, which is kind of like [Jaya Saxena: Oh my god.] your most basic looking glass, because that I guess makes them feel less threatened.

Jaya Saxena: Straight men get a real problem challenge.

Zach Stafford: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Zach Stafford: Like holding stem glassware is not ma ... What? 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Zach Stafford: This is so dumb.

Dan Pashman: I know. It's ... There's a lot ... There was a lot to unpack in this article. It was also — and it was all these sort of like 20-something-year-old finance bros who were being quoted.

Jaya Saxena: What year is it?

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Jaya Saxena: Like ... [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: The trend I see emerging from these two articles is an emergence of a new breed of person in the food world that I would call like the foodie bros. 

Zach Stafford: Hmm. 

Dan Pashman: There are foodie bros now.

Jaya Saxena: I think it's funny — the idea of the foodie bro, because I also do think that this is something, right, that you can tie back. There is a history of this. I often think of my first encounter with what could be named a foodie bro is sort of in that early 2010s, like epic bacon space ... 

Dan Pashman: Oh, yes. 

Zach Stafford: Mm-hmm. Yes. 

Jaya Saxena: Is what I tend to call it.

Dan Pashman: Right. Like, how much bacon can you pile onto this dish?

Jaya Saxena: Exactly. You had these men who were really into food, but they were really into food in this specific way where it's like, we want meat on meat. We want bacon on everything. If men are cooking something, it's going to be intense and big and full of meat and cheese, and, you know, we hate salads [LAUGHS] and that sort of thing. But doing it almost in this foodie way of like, we're gonna obsess over charcuterie. 

Zach Stafford: Mm-hmm. 

Jaya Saxena: We're going to get the best quality bacon or beer, you know, the whole craft beer movement …

Dan Pashman: Right. We’re gonna be really refined cavemen.

Jaya Saxena: Right. I think you found a lot of men in that space. And it's not everyone who is into craft beer and it's not everyone who is into bacon, but there was that strain. You know, you said that some of these guys are, like, 20-year-olds. I think at a certain point you are always going to have 20-year-old men who, [ZACH STAFFORDLAUGHS] you know, bring this energy to whatever they're doing. [LAUGHS] And you know, I'm going to cross my fingers that a lot of them grow out of it. But like, I don't think they do.

Dan Pashman: I will say — this may be a controversial statement and has nothing to do with masculinity. I’m just gonna say that I think that long stem glasses are not great.

Zach Stafford: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: Okay. So, like, the concept of them is that you're going to hold the drink by the stem so that your hand doesn't touch the bulb part, where the liquid is, and that way you won't warm the drink. It'll stay cold. Right? That’s the whole design point. But when you hold the stem of the drink, if the glass is full, it's very top heavy.

Jaya Saxena: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: It's hard to keep it balanced. 

Zach Stafford: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: It is, to me, like uncomfortable. Like, it's stressful to hold it in my hand. So I always` end up holding it by the bulb part of the long stem glass, which defeats the whole purpose of the stem.

Zach Stafford: I will agree with you to say they're poorly designed because they're not focused on, you know, not letting things spill, or you know, not — whatever, all these other issues. But what I love about them is that they're really beautiful, and it's stunning, And when you're having a cocktail, you should feel sexy, you should feel cool, it should be something that's thoughtful, and it shouldn't be something that you're just slamming back and forth, like you would do in a rocks glass. So I love how non-functional they are. Sit down. Sit at the bar. Enjoy the martini. Sit in a place where you don't have to be using your hands and moving around. I like them. I don't want to change them. Long live the martini glass and it's feminine stem.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jaya Saxena: Yes. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: All right, let's spin this spinner.

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: So we've covered some of the biggest news in food this year. Let's cover one of the biggest stories in drinks. Now, we already talked about Starbucks announcing that they're going to be changing their ice. We did a whole episode on ice this summer. But in March, Starbucks also unveiled their olive oil coffees with some notable side effects. Is that right, Zach?

Zach Stafford: Yes. [LAUGHS] Yes, there are very notable side effects. So in L.A., where I live, they rolled out the olive oil, I think, first to market, where they were testing it here. And it was everywhere. I go to Starbucks a lot just because it's a drive thru and we drive. And there was some news, I think it was on Reddit or somewhere in the week after that this started happening, where people were reporting that they were having to go to the bathroom much quicker than they have ever anticipated because [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] olive oil mixed with coffee makes you go number two pretty fast. So that's the weird, you know, I guess, fallout, which is not a good word use of drinking ... 

[LAUGHING]

Dan Pashman: Jaya, thoughts on this?

Jaya Saxena: Yeah, you know, I remember covering this when it was first announced. I got a press release from Starbucks about it and I went and looked into it and I just — I immediately had the thought that it was going to have the effects that it turned out having. So I am [Dan Pashman: Oh!] very proud to have been right about that.

[LAUGHING] 

Jaya Saxena: That just talking to my coworkers were all like, t"This is a bad idea, right? This is going to make you go to the bathroom very quickly."

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Coming up, if it hasn't gotten weird enough already, it's going to get weirder. We're going to talk about some of the strangest food stories of the past year. And then, the lightning round. Zach, Jaya, you'll stick around?

Zach Stafford: Yeah.

Jaya Saxena: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: All right, we'll be right back.

MUSIC

 

+++BREAK+++

 

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. Last week on the show I talk with Fuchsia Dunlop, the British cookbook author who’s spent much of her career exploring the food of China, by immersing herself in different regions for years at a time. Still she says for a long time, even though she spoke the language and lived among locals, she still ate like a European.

CLIP (FUSCHIA DUNLOP): I always ate everything very politely. And I would go out for hot pot, and my friends would order goose intestines and huā hóu, which is actually the rubbery aortas of pigs and cattle, and all these other rubbery, slithery things. And so I would eat them. But as far as I was concerned, it was just like eating rubber bands. I mean, what was the point? I had no pleasure. I was just doing it out of duty.

Dan Pashman: Fuchsia tells me about the moment when she realized that she’d finally gotten out of that European mindset. She also tells me what Westerners misunderstand about Chinese food, and how she’s seen the country change over the past 30 years. That’s up now, check it out.

Dan Pashman: And make sure you listen all the way to the end of this episode, because you're not gonna want to miss my conversation with chef Darnell Reed at Luella’s Southern Kitchen in Chicago, who talks about a fantastic holiday dish — duck confit — that gets a boost in flavor thanks to Tony Chachere’s Creole Seasoning. So listen to the end of the episode for that conversation.

Dan Pashman: All right, let us return to the salad spinner year end review. I'm back with Jaya Saxena, correspondent at Eater. Hello again, Jaya.

Jaya Saxena: Hey, how you doing?

Dan Pashman: And hello again to Zach Stafford, one of the hosts of the podcast Vibe Check. Hey, Zach.

Zach Stafford: Hi, thanks for having me.

Dan Pashman: All right. Let's spin the salad spinner.

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Does one of you want to have a turn to spin the spinner? Jaya, why don't you spin it?

Jaya Saxena: All right, let's go.

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: In June, McDonald's created a new campaign for Grimace's birthday: A purple Grimace shake. TikTok got involved, users began making short horror films of things going bad after ordering a Grimace shake. And then in another twist, Grimace has been embraced as a queer icon, apparently. Zach, you first. Did you try the Grimace shake? And where do you stand on Grimace?

Zach Stafford: No, you know, as a fellow member of the LGBTQ community, [DAN PASHMAN LAUGHS] I did not go to McDonald's to try the ... 

Dan Pashman: Fellow, meaning you and Grimace?

Zach Stafford: Me and Grimace. We did not — I did not try the shake, but I did support from afar and I love the visibility that Grimace has given us as a queer icon. But I don't go to McDonald's that much, but it looked like a very colorful beverage that you could drink and would stain everything in your house if you had it.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Jaya?

Jaya Saxena: Also as a queer person, I did not try the Grimace shake, but I love Grimace as a queer icon the same way that like Gritty is a queer icon.

Dan Pashman: Gritty is the mascot of the Philadelphia Flyers hockey team. Is that right?

Jaya Saxena: Yep.

Zach Stafford: Right. 

Jaya Saxena: And so, you know, just anybody that's sort of is like vaguely menacing but in a fun way, that seems to be, [LAUGHS] you know, where my queerness stands. [ZACH STAFFORD LAUGHS] And so I love that Grimace is like that. One thing that I found so fascinating about the Grimace shake is that a lot of people thought that because it was purple, it was going to be ube flavored. And McDonald's is like, no, it's grape. Purple is grape. [ZACH STAFFORD LAUGHS] But I thought that was so fascinating that we have gotten to a point with the popularity of ube that people are now associating the color purple in food, thinking that it's that and not grape. Whereas my entire childhood, if something was purple, it was grape.

Dan Pashman: I googled: What is Grimace supposed to be? Because this is — I'm still stuck on this. And apparently in 2012, McDonald's official corporate Twitter feed tweeted from their official account that Grimace was "The embodiment of a milkshake," though others still insist he's a taste bud.

Jaya Saxena: [LAUGHS]

Zach Stafford: He's a taste bud? What? He looks like Barney's cousin.

Jaya Saxena: Wait, this is art though. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Jaya Saxena: The embodiment of a milkshake. This is like surrealism brought to life [Dan Pashman: Yes.] as a mascot. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: There was an interview with the CBC in Canada, Canadian McDonald's franchise manager named Brian Bates said, he again repeated the idea that Grimace is a taste bud. And I guess, and this — the writer here says, "Apparently Grimaces character eludes to the fact that the food you'll get at McDonald's tastes good." But like, if you're grimacing from eating something, it doesn't mean that it tasted good.

Jaya Saxena: That's not good.

Zach Stafford: No.

Dan Pashman: Zack, Jaya, you ready to spin the spinner?

Zach Stafford: Yes.

Jaya Saxena: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: Zack, I want to give you a turn too. We want to be fair to everyone here. Why don't you take a turn this time to spin the salad spinner?

Zach Stafford: All right. Do I ... how do I spin it? [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] Just press the button. 

Zach Stafford: Just press the button?

Dan Pashman: The giant red button [Zach Stafford: Okay, here's the button.] right in front of you. Don't you see it?

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT STARTS]

Zach Stafford: There.

[SALAD SPINNER SOUND EFFECT]

Dan Pashman: All right. Great. [LAUGHS] Another story that I want to cover that is somewhere between biggest food stories of the year and weirdest one that you actually wrote, Jaya, with the headline, “Angel Hair Is Good. [Jaya Saxena: Yes.] Always Has Been.”

Jaya Saxena: Yes! Yes! This is important.

Dan Pashman: Okay, now I ... I am on record as being not the biggest fan of angel hair, but go on, please. Summarize your piece for folks who didn't read it. 

Jaya Saxena: No, it's fine, and I commend you for recognizing when you're wrong. 

[LAUGHING] 

Jaya Saxena: But the thing about angel hair is that I think it was really overused in the ‘90s. I'm in my late 30s. Everyone in my age range grew up with angel hair being one of sort of the standard pastas in your household, one of the standard pastas offered at a restaurant, and often it would be sort of really overcooked. When you have angel hair that is, in my mind, cooked properly, which is very quickly, that it's still a little bit al dente, and then it's tossed with whatever sauce you have it in, usually a pretty simple sauce, it is the most amazing texture. To me, biting between all these little, little, little strands and having sort of that texture sensation in your teeth is really great. And I've started noticing it a little bit more on some restaurant menus, but mostly I've just noticed a lot of people who cook at home revisiting it and going, "Wait a minute, why did I ever give this up? This is actually great." [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: I ... Look, I'm not going to yuck somebody's yum. If it makes you happy, that's great. And look, I take your point that with a very thin sauce and if it's cooked just right, angel hair can be good. To me though, it's a design flaw that it is so difficult to cook it just right. It has to be the most finicky of the pasta shapes.

Dan Pashman: All right, now I don't even know what sound effect we're going to play, because the salad spinner is about to enter the lightning round.

[SALAD SPINNER LIGHTNING ROUND SOUND EFFECT] 

Dan Pashman: All right, now we're going to do favorite food story of the year. Jaya, what do you got?

Jaya Saxena: Yeah, so I'm very excited that Saveur announced that they are returning to print. I always love their stuff, and I greatly mourned when they ceased print magazine production. But they recently announced that they're going to bring the print magazine back. And I think that's so great because I think especially for food, when you are printing recipes and you're printing these beautiful food photos, having that in your hands and something that you can keep on your shelf and return to and cook from all the time is just such a wonderful tactile experience. 

Dan Pashman: Zach, what is your favorite food story of the year?

Zach Stafford: My favorite food story is sadly going to be about Taylor Swift. [LAUGHS] I don't know if that's sadly, I think it's exciting. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: No, I think ... I mean, I feel like we just started talking about her.

Zach Stafford: Thank you. I think so, too. 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] 

Zach Stafford: She just came out of nowhere. A star overnight. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Zach Stafford: Wow. You know? But no, no. I think the reporting people have been doing around where she eats, what she eats, interviewing owners, I think as a longtime journalist, I'm seeing my colleagues go back to the roots, which is like hitting the pavement and really reporting out a story. Because the things I know about how she pays, what she orders, all that is just fascinating to me. I also find celebrities and their behaviors at restaurants, especially nice restaurants or trendy restaurants like Via Carota, really interesting, because then you also have this moment — I think as a fan and her fans are so rabid — that you can go like eat like Taylor and her friends. You can have a date night like these celebrities So it makes it kind of them weirdly accessible. And also I love when celebrities show up to very public places and try to have private moments because it's so obvious a PR moment. So I just — I love the camp of that too.

Jaya Saxena: [LAUGHS]

Dan Pashman: It is — do you think that it's a PR moment? 

Zach Stafford: Oh, 1000 percent. 

Dan Pashman: Like, is that why Taylor Swift goes out to restaurants?

Zach Stafford: Let me tell you this, she loves the attention in that — like, she can control the narrative. 

Dan Pashman: Mm-hmm. 

Zach Stafford: So you know, when you go, you call the paparazzi, that's how they know when you arrive.

Dan Pashman: You think she calls the paparazzi and tells them she's gonna be there?

Zach Stafford: Oh, I 100 percent think there’s a coordinating that happens there, because it — I think, I always compare her to Beyonce. You never see Beyonce, even when she goes to Horses, you never see photos of her there. But, when Taylor goes to certain restaurants, like when she went to Nobu with Travis Kelce in Midtown, that was obviously a way to get photographed in a certain way. So I love the performance. It feels very early 2000s with the big paparazzi culture of Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, so it feels nostalgic too, but I like it. 

Dan Pashman: Jaya, what's your take on all this?

Jaya Saxena: Yeah, I mean, I also agree that this is something that does feel calculated to a certain level because there are private dining options all over this city [Zach Stafford: Yeah.], all over New York, all over L. A., all over a lot of big cities. There are ways for celebrities to get a good meal cooked by famous chefs with nobody seeing them. And so I do think that if somebody of Taylor Swift's caliber is going to be eating out publicly, that is a conscious choice. I do think it was very funny when she went to Via Carota, a restaurant that has been extraordinarily popular in New York for a really, really long time, a place that was already very difficult to get a reservation. And then you had this whole wave of people who like thought that Taylor Swift invented Via Carota.

Zach Stafford: [LAUGHS] They did.

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS]

Jaya Saxena: And are just like, oh, the Taylor Swift restaurant, the restaurant that she went to, the restaurant that she made famous. And it's like, what are you talking about?

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] All right, well, the lightning round got slowed down because we had to talk a little bit more about Taylor Swift. It happens, okay? All right, but let's get back to lightning round pace here. What's the best thing you ate this year? Zach?

Zach Stafford: Oh, mine is ... Have you been to Alamo Drafthouse? Have both of you been to an Alamo Drafthouse, the movie theater?

Jaya Saxena: Yes. 

Dan Pashman: I have not.

Zach Stafford: You have not? Okay, so Dan, it's a movie theater and they serve you food while you're sitting there, right? They have one item on their menu that I think is a true culinary juggernaut. So it's called "The Enigma Popcorn", or now it's been rebranded as "The Churro Popcorn." I'm obsessed with it. It is popcorn tossed in butter with cinnamon sugar and churros in it. And I know that sounds [Dan Pashman: Ooh.] insane and like so decadent ... 

Jaya Saxena: Ohh. 

Zach Stafford: It is.

Dan Pashman: It's like cut up ... It's like small pieces ...

Zach Stafford: Yes.

Dan Pashman: Like are the pieces of churro the same size as the kernels of popcorn?

Zach Stafford: They do a really thin churro and then chop it up. And there's a bunch of them.

Dan Pashman: Right. 

Zach Stafford: And sometimes I've been to theaters where they've run out of churros and they toss in cinnamon toast crunch, which is also [JAYA GAPS] wildly delicious. 

Dan Pashman: So, Zach goes with "The Churro Popcorn" at Alamo Draft House. Jaya, best thing you ate this year?

Jaya Saxena: The best thing I ate this year was fried chicken at this restaurant called Dorobet in Philadelphia. It's in West Philly. It's an Ethiopian restaurant. And they do their fried chicken with a teff batter. Teff is the grain that Ethiopian injera bread is made with. And it was just the crispiest, juiciest, most flavorful fried chicken I can remember having and they have it, you know, sort of two brines. There's a spicy berbere one, and there's a lemon turmeric one. 

Dan Pashman: Ooh, that sounds good. 

Jaya Saxena: And both of them were just incredible in a city full of great meals, that was maybe the thing, the one bite that I had that I want to keep returning to and I really want to go back there. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: Oh, that sounds so good. For me, I would say — oh, one of my favorite restaurants in New York is, is called Shuka, a Middle Eastern Mediterranean restaurant and their labneh ... the labneh there, it's an appetizer, they changed what they're putting on it different times and I never had a bad one, but like, it's ruined me for labneh. Like that's — it's so thick, it's so tangy, it's so savory, and with fresh baked warm pita and you just dip it in that sort of like thick yogurty labneh, I mean, it's a must order every time I go there, and that's the best thing I ate this year.

Jaya Saxena: I love good labneh.

Dan Pashman: All right, biggest food complaint of the year. Jaya?

Jaya Saxena: All right, mine is more and more restaurants developing restaurant subscription services. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, this popped up during the pandemic, right, where independent restaurants launched subscriptions. Like you pay a monthly fee, you can get perks and rewards from that restaurant. 

Jaya Saxena: Yup, and I understand on some level why this is happening. I think after the pandemic you have a lot of restaurants who want to ensure that they have a certain amount of money coming in every month and as with any subscription service this is a way to sort of guarantee what's going to be on the books, but I just find it so frustrating, the concept that I would have to be a member of a restaurant to go there. But I am like, no, I just want to be able to make a reservation somewhere. I don't think that's a ridiculous ask. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: But it also gets to the idea that like, so much of upscale restaurants isn't so much about the food, it's about the status. 

Jaya Saxena: Exactly. 

Dan Pashman: So, like, there's already one barrier to entry, which is the cost. But now, if you're in a place where there's enough — a lot of people who have enough money, then you need to create another barrier so it can feel even more exclusive to the people who are there. They can feel like they got in somewhere that other people didn't get in. They're a member of the club. And so that, I think that's also part of what's going on there. But Zach, biggest complaint?

Zach Stafford: Mine would be the normalization of walnuts in every chocolate chip cookie I have. 

[LAUGHING] 

Jaya Saxena: Yes. 

Zach Stafford: It is everywhere. I know everyone loves Levain.

Dan Pashman: Levain. Yes, near and dear to my heart — the famous New York cookie company that’s now expanded across the country. 

Zach Stafford: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: They have chocolate chip cookies that are the size of softballs.

Jaya Saxena: Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: They’re basically dark brown and crusty on the outside and basically raw melted cookie dough in the center with walnuts. 

Zach Stafford: And I get it, those cookies are delicious, and I like them sometimes. But, I will go to the opening of a new grocery store in L.A., and someone's like, "Let's get a chocolate chip cookie," —walnuts. I'll be at a Whole Foods, and they have prepackaged chocolate chip cookies — walnuts. I'm over it. I just want a chocolate chip cookie without walnuts. And I think this has to do with TikTok. TikTok has taken Levain's recipe and everyone's trying to make their own versions of it, which is a walnut focused one. So now everyone thinks chocolate chip cookies have walnuts and I think that's bullshit. So that's my take. [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: All right. Well, I, as someone who just in the past few years warmed up to walnuts and chocolate chip cookies ... 

Zach Stafford: [LAUGHS] 

Dan Pashman: [LAUGHS] I politely disagree. Although I agree, like, you know, you don't want too many of them. You certainly don't need them. 

Zach Stafford: No. 

Dan Pashman: For me, my biggest complaints are beets and goat cheese salads, blistered shishito peppers, and drinks in stemware that doesn't function properly to allow you to drink the drink.

[LAUGHING] 

Jaya Saxena: Blistered shishitos, we're never ... we're never going to get away from blistered shishitos though. 

Zach Stafford: No. 

Jaya Saxena: Those are like the most reliable, cheap appetizer that is a little bit fancy. You know, it's not a mozzarella stick ...  

Zach Stafford: They are omnipresent in a way that I never saw coming. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah. 

Zach Stafford: And I always assume it's because they're really cheap, you make a lot of money off of them. And also, I'm assuming they're pretty low cal, kind of guilt free in people's minds, because it's just peppers blistered, so, I don't know. I do agree we need to create a new appetizer, because it is getting overdone. Especially goat cheese and beets,that is just, like, never ending.

Dan Pashman: I mean, come on people. 

Zach Stafford: Everywhere. 

Dan Pashman: Yeah, I mean really just bury that one with a tuna tartare. 

[LAUGHING] 

Dan Pashman: All right, final question of the lightning round. I want to ask each of you for your New Year's food resolution. This is something we do here on The Sporkful every year. In our big year end episode we ask listeners to send in their New Year's food resolution. So I want to take a minute here and remind all of you listening: Send in your New Year's food resolutions for the year end episode, in which I will also reveal my New Year's food resolution. I'm not going to reveal it right now. I want to know what food do you resolve to eat more of in the new year and why? Record it in a voice memo. Tell me your name and where you're from, and then answer the question: What food do you resolve to eat more of in the new year and why? And send it to us at hello@sporkful.com. My existing resolution for this past year, this current year, is to eat more black pepper. And I'm still working on that. I will report back on it in the year end episode, but I'd like to hear from each of you: What food do you resolve to eat more of in the new year and why? Jaya?

Jaya Saxena: Well, I think I had resolved to eat more vegetables when I first thought about this, in that I love going to restaurants that put a focus on vegetables, even if they're not a vegetarian restaurant, but I also think, as we were talking about stem glassware, I've been into martinis, and I want to figure out what my favorite, my perfect martini is. I think that'll be a fun project.

Dan Pashman: That sounds like a quest worth setting out upon.

Jaya Saxena: Yeah.

Dan Pashman: Zach?

Zach Stafford: Mine is cottage cheese. I'm just going to lean into the trend and it is a great addition to a lot of different recipes. I can vouch for the chocolate chip cookies made. Have you had chocolate chip cookie dough made out of cottage cheese yet?

Jaya Saxena: No. 

Zach Stafford: It is like a viral TikTok recipe. It is delicious and ... 

Jaya Saxena: Oh my God. 

Dan Pashman: I saw Jake Cohen do one of those. Yeah.

Zach Stafford: Yeah, Jake Cohen did it. And I tried it and it now is a staple in my house. So it is, like if you're interested in a high protein diet, which is like I think the next big food trend that we're going to continue to see in 2024 is people obsessing over protein intake, which is very — goes back to the bro foodie thing.

Jaya Saxena: Oh yeah. 

Zach Stafford: Cottage cheese is a part of that bro food trend.

Jaya Saxena: Yeah, I mean, I love a good cottage cheese, so I'm here for that. 

Dan Pashman: You know what's good on cottage cheese? You may already, already be doing this, Zach, but this is a call back to our Starbucks story — olive oil.

Zach Stafford: Really? I didn't have that. 

Dan Pashman: Drizzle in some olive oil. Cause you — one of the — second to the labneh at Shuka, the other great thing I ate this year was an ice cream at Caffe Panna in New York, which is like an Italian soft serve place, and they had this — it was like a sundae. It was like vanilla soft serve with chopped dates and olive oil and sea salt ... 

Zach Stafford: Mmm. 

Jaya Saxena: Mmm. 

Dan Pashman: On vanilla soft serve. And it was fantastic. And I went through a very hardcore olive oil on soft serve. I actually went to Carvel and brought my own olive oil.

Jaya Saxena: Oh my God.

Zach Stafford: That's ... Wow. That's ...

Dan Pashman: That's how into it I've gotten this past summer.

Zach Stafford: That's ...

[LAUGHING]

MUSIC

Dan Pashman: Jaya Saxena is a correspondent at Eater and series editor at The Best American Food Writing. The next edition of that series comes out fall 2024, so keep an eye out for that. And Zach Stafford is one of the hosts of the podcast Vibe Check, along with our friends Saeed Jones and Sam Sanders. And of course, you should be listening to that podcast because it's phenomenal. Thank you so much, Jaya and Zach.

Zach Stafford: Thank you.

Jaya Saxena: Thank you so much.

Dan Pashman: Next week on the show, how does the Michelin Guide’s star rating system actually work? How do they decide who gets stars and who doesn't? I talk with a Michelin-starred chef, a former Michelin inspector, and a food editor from a city that hasn’t received one single star. That’s next week.

Dan Pashman: While you’re waiting for that one, check out last week’s episode with Fuchsia Dunlop. And don’t forget to send me your New Year’s resolutions. Email me at hello@sporkful.com with your name, location, and what you resolve to eat more of and why. We might feature you in our year-end episode.

 

CREDITS

 

[RESTAURANT AMBIANCE]

Dan Pashman: I’m at Luella’s Southern Kitchen in Chicago with Darnell Reed, the owner and chef. Luella’s is named for Darnell’s great-grandmother, who always did a lot of cooking, but especially at the holidays.

Dan Pashman: So what are some of your specific food memories around Christmas? The kinds of things that your great grandmother would be cooking?

Darnell Reed: The main entree that she would make for Christmas or for the holidays, period, is she would always roast a duck, or a goose. So right now today, myself, we’ll make a duck confit or a goose confit.

Dan Pashman: If you want to make duck confit or just about anything else for the holidays, Darnell has a pro tip for you. Season it with Tony Chachere’s Creole Seasoning. He says, "Tony’s makes everything taste great."

Darnell Reed: Creole seasoning is so versatile. So it’s like an all purpose seasoning in a southern kitchen.

Dan Pashman: I’ve been finding that if I taste something and I’m like, "Eh. It’s just missing something," just throw on some Tony chachere’s and suddenly it’s not missing anything anymore. [LAUGHS] 

Darnell Reed: That’ll do it. No, that’ll do it because it’s so many different ingredients in there so it’s giving you a little bit of everything.

Dan Pashman: Duck confit with Tony’s Creole Seasoning? I mean, come on. Oh, it sounds so good. But on so many holiday tables, the sides are really the main attraction, right? And Luella’s holiday table was no exception.

Darnell Reed: The sides were always your mac and cheese, your yams, your green beans, stuff like that, so …

Dan Pashman: What about gumbo?

Darnell Reed: Oh, so for sure. But a gumbo was holidays but it was also every other day. 

Dan Pashman: Right. [LAUGHS] 

Darnell Reed: So yeah. Yeah. 

Dan Pashman: Every day is gumbo day!

Darnell Reed: So Every day was gumbo day. And her gumbo was very special, so …

Dan Pashman: Paint a picture for me, when you think about your great-grandmother making gumbo, like what does it look like?

Darnell Reed: It wasn’t just her making the gumbo, but it was a room full of people, the entire family was there. Sometimes it’ll be other hands in the kitchen like aunts. It was really just a moment of gathering.

Dan Pashman: What’s the role of Tony’s creole seasoning in the gumbo?

Darnell Reed: Pretty much like a finisher, something you'll put toward the end to give it a little extra of everything. Because a lot of those notes are in there. It’s kind of enhancing what you’re already doing with the gumbo. If you want to cook it like towards the beginning, you can cook it once you get your vegetables already going, once they start releasing some of the liquid, some of the juices, you can add that. But myself, I add it towards the end. 

Dan Pashman: So there you have it! This holiday season pick up some Tony Chachere’s full of Cajun/Creole flavors that pair well with just about anything. Whether you’re cooking turkey, Tofurkey, ham, beef, duck confit, gumbo, or something else, the best bite you’ll taste this holiday season is the one seasoned inside and out with Tony Chachere’s. For more than 50 years, Mr. Tony’s has remained family has remained family owned and operated, carrying on the tradition of authenticity and flavor through its line of Creole seasonings, marinades, dinner mixes, and more.

Dan Pashman: All of Tony’s flavorful products are available at tonychachere.com. That’s tonychachere.com.