The owner of New York's Adda Indian Canteen has one table in his restaurant that's underperforming the others. And in a business with razor-thin margins, that's a real problem. In this special collaboration with Sally Helm and NPR's Planet Money, we enlist the help of a tape measure-wielding professor to try to turn the loser table into a winner. It turns out that how a restaurant treats its real estate is more important than how it cooks its food.
Here's what the troublesome area looked like after the renovation:
But what did this do to Adda's bottom line? Listen to find out!
Interstitial music in this episode by Black Label Music:
- "Talk to Me Now (Instrumental)" by Agasthi Jayatilaka
- "Private Detective" by Black Label Productions
- "Morning Blues" by JT Bates
- "Stacks" by Afrokeys
Photos courtesy of Emma Morgenstern and Dan Pashman.
View Transcript
Dan Pashman: Hello Sally Helm, reporter for Planet Money.
Sally Helm: Hello Dan.
Dan Pashman: So, you will recall the scene. It’s last summer, a very hot day.
Dan Pashman: I should have worn shorts.
Dan Pashman: You and I show up in a restaurant in New York City, specifically in Long Island City, Queens.
Sally Helm: Yeah, It's a casual Indian place, called Adda, which translates, roughly, to hangout spot. And that is the vibe the owner Roni Mazumdar was going for.
Sally Helm: You're Roni? I'm Sally.
Roni Mazumdar: How are you? Very nice to meet you.
Dan Pashman: Roni knows the restaurant business. He currently owns three Indian places in New York. In addition to this one, there’s The Masalawala, and a more upscale spot, Rahi. But he’s also run two that have closed, including a taco spot right here in Adda’s current location. And he told us, the whole concept of Adda is a risk.
Roni Mazumdar: We took a lot of chances in a restaurant like this. Serving goat brains isn't really a normal protocol here in New York, because you're scared out of your mind, like maybe it's way too ethnic.
Dan Pashman: But when the New York Times came to review Adda, those goat brains were considered a highlight. One server compares them to soft scrambled eggs, with onions, ginger, and fresh green chiles. Another standout, according to Pete Wells’ review: kaleji masala, chicken livers in a gravy with fresh ginger and garam masala.
Sally Helm: That wasn’t the only press Adda got. It was named a "Best New Restaurant In America" by Food and Wine, and got nominated for a James Beard Award. Which is great in some ways of course, but suddenly the business changed. And Roni found he had a problem.
Dan Pashman: Now the problem is not the food. It’s actually the physical space. And how the physical space relates to the money.
Sally Helm: So to explain this, first you gotta understand that Roni designed his restaurant one way.
Roni Mazumdar: We were genuinely never expecting people beyond a five block radius.
Sally Helm: There’s a college across the street, lots of young professionals working in the area.
Dan Pashman: But now, Adda is a destination.
Roni Mazumdar: People from different parts of the world are coming. This is no longer a quick bite restaurant. People are spending more time than we expected.
Dan Pashman: But that also creates a certain economic pressure.
Roni Mazumdar: It does. That’s why the chairs don’t have cushions. I’m dead serious.
Sally Helm: If the chairs are too comfortable, people might stay too long. And Roni is set on keeping prices low. Which means if he’s gonna turn a good profit, he needs people to eat quickly. Then leave and make space for more customers.
Dan Pashman: But not feel too rushed. I mean he wants them to have a good enough time that they come back, of course.
Sally Helm: Balance.
Dan Pashman: Yeah. That is the key for any restaurateur. You got to get the most out of every table, every seat, every minute that you’re open. And to do that, a restaurant has to balance three things: price, timing, and space. All of them come with tradeoffs.
Sally Helm: Yeah. You can do low prices and quick turnover. Or you can make it really comfy, so people are okay paying more, but then they stay longer.
Dan Pashman: And of course, you want to fit in as many people in your restaurant as possible, but you can't go too far with that because then no one's gonna want to come back. I mean people don't like to eat literally in a human pile.
Sally Helm: So tradeoffs. How a place balances these tradeoffs sets the tone and the profits for a restaurant.
Dan Pashman: And this industry operates on tiny margins. So if the balance is off, even a James Beard Award nominated restaurant is vulnerable.
Sally Helm: Roni is doing a lot of things right. But his problem, it is right smack in the front of the restaurant for everyone to see.
Dan Pashman: Adda’s worst table.
Sally Helm: What table is this?
Roni Mazumdar: 101.
Sally Helm: You say that with like an ominous...
Roni Mazumdar: That's the only table that's a high top.
Sally Helm: Because it's higher up. It's raised off the ground.
Roni Mazumdar: Yes and we wanted that because we wanted sort of a little nice vantage point so people can really see outside as opposed to really a lower angle.
Dan Pashman: Roni thought for sure that table 101 was going to be the best seat in the house. It is the window seat and usually people love the window seat. But at Adda, this window table has the restaurant's lowest check average. Roni doesn’t get it.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: That’s why we have brought Roni a secret weapon, Stephani Robson. She’s an expert on restaurant psychology and design. And she has agreed to come to Adda and conduct an experiment. Can she use her research to turn table 101 into the best seat in the house?
Sally Helm: And also show me and Dan and everyone else the little tricks that restaurants use to get us to spend more?
Dan Pashman: Today on the show, we take a page from reality TV. We’re doing a data-driven restaurant makeover.
Sally Helm: It is a game of inches and everything inside is fair game.
Stephani Robson: We're totally dismantling your entire restaurant.
Roni Mazumdar: I love it.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: This is The Sporkful, it’s not for foodies it’s for eaters, I’m Dan Pashman. Each week on our show we obsess about food to learn more about people. And for this episode I got a co-host, my friend Sally Helm, reporter, writer, producer...Hey Sally.
Sally Helm: Hello Dan. So that story we are sharing today is one that we also did with our friends at the NPR podcast Planet Money.
Dan Pashman: Yeah, that’s right. So if you already heard it there, maybe check out another recent episode of The Sporkful. I talked with Taz Ahmed about dating as a Muslim American, that one’s called "A Very Halal Valentine’s". Or hear my conversation with British celebrity chef, Jamie Oliver. He’s one of the best selling authors in UK history, even though he’s dyslexic. Growing up he thought he’d never be good at anything, until he started cooking. I really enjoyed both of these conversations. They’re up now, check em out.
Dan Pashman: Okay Sally, let’s get into it...
Sally Helm: Alright, we meet Stephani Robson in the street outside Adda.
Dan Pashman: Have you been here before?
Stephani Robson: I have not. It took me a while to find it.
Dan Pashman: We picked Stephani because she’s the perfect person to figure out the problem of table 101. She’s consulted with dozens of restaurants. Her specialty? The way design affects how much we spend. She teaches this stuff at Cornell.
Sally Helm: Stephani did one study that showed that playing fast songs got people out of the restaurant seven or eight minutes quicker.
Dan Pashman: Other research suggests if you play faster music, people might also spend more per minute. Stephani says, that could be why grocery stores play so much 80s music.
Sally Helm: And these days she’s very focused on tables.
Stephani Robson: How close tables can be and what effect that has on the guests. Which is kind of mortifying. You know, when you talk to other people who do research, and some people will be coming up with a new theory of physics, and I'm studying the distance of restaurant tables.
Dan Pashman: Well for the record Stephani, I think your research is very important.
Stephani Robson: Well thank you, Dan.
Sally Helm: It is important, especially to someone running a restaurant.
Stephani Robson: Restaurants don't really sell food. They sell space. That's what they're in the business of doing.
Dan Pashman: You’re running a real estate business.
Stephani Robson: It is a real estate business. That's exactly right.
Sally Helm: And the diners are like renting tables?
Stephani Robson: Yeah, yeah. Think about it. When you go to a restaurant that has a really high check average, really high prices. They can give you a bigger table. They can give you a bigger table because they can afford to because you're paying more in rent.
Dan Pashman: And for that money, for that extra money, you are quite literally getting more space for more time.
Stephani Robson: Yes, that's exactly right. And so if you're at a restaurant where they don't have that kind of a check average—think about fast food restaurants you've been to you. Don't get a comfy booth at McDonald's. That's on purpose because they don't want you to stay.
Dan Pashman: Even in suburban and rural areas, where there’s plenty of space at fast food restaurants, you’re not gonna find super cushy seats. And some of the more upscale fast casual places have no seats at all. Like David Chang’s fried chicken sandwich joint Fuku. They only have high counters. So if you’re gonna eat there, you have to eat standing up. Even at Adda, they don’t go that far.
Sally Helm: So when we walk in here in a sec, what are you going to be looking for?
Stephani Robson: First thing to look for is what style of seating they have. But I get a first impression just looking at the mix of tables and where they are.
Sally Helm: Is that always what it's like for you when you walk into a restaurant? Do you your eyes go straight to the tables?
Stephani Robson: I am single for a reason, Sally.
Sally Helm: Stephani used to bring a tape measure in her purse everywhere she went. She says she's never whipped it out on a first date, but she did once get kicked out of the food court at the Pentagon City Mall outside DC, because she was drawing little diagrams of the tables, and the guards thought that was suspicious.
Dan Pashman: It sounds totally normal to me.
Sally Helm: Alright. Should we do it? Shall we go inside?
Stephani Robson: Let's do it.
Sally Helm: All right!
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: All right Stephani describe to us what you're seeing.
Stephani Robson: I am seeing a really interesting mix of tables. This is an unusually shaped restaurant.
Sally Helm: Adda is long and narrow. From the door, we can see the whole thing. There’s the problem Table 101, in the front window. Then it’s a row of two-person tables against a long wall with a banquette. That’s like bench seating that runs almost the whole length of the restaurant. And on the other side of the room, there’s a little nook, an alcove.
Dan Pashman: In Stephani's mind, every part of the restaurant is a subtle clue for diners about how we should behave and what we should expect.
Sally Helm: Like, if you have heavy cutlery, research suggests you’re willing to spend more. You’re like, oh my god. This fork is so heavy in my hand, this salmon must be worth 30 dollars.
Dan Pashman: Right, where as if it comes on a paper plate with a plastic fork, you're like, clearly, this salmon has been farmed.
Sally Helm: I do low quality salmon here.
Dan Pashman: Right, so first, Stephani looks around. She zooms in on the furniture.
Stephani Robson: The chairs that I see are all metal. You're not gonna sit in these for a long time. We sometimes talk about restaurant chairs based on how long you're comfortable. You can order a two-hour chair or a three-hour chair.
Sally Helm: Order them, like, from your restaurant supplier. So, say you're a steakhouse, and you're gonna charge a lot for your steaks and sell expensive bottles of wine. You can order the nice, cushy, three-hour chairs, with the arm rests. Your plan is to have people stay longer, so you can sell them an extra cocktail and some desserts.
Dan Pashman: But these metal chairs at Adda?
Sally Helm: What is this like a thirty-minute chair?
Stephani Robson: This is probably a forty-two minutes and thirty-second chair.
Dan Pashman: I think Stephani was kidding about the thirty seconds, but it wouldn’t shock me if she was right.
Sally Helm: As we’re talking about this, up walks the guy who can tell us all about these chairs, Roni.
Dan Pashman: Stephani, Roni. Roni, Stephani.
Stephani Robson: Hi Roni.
Sally Helm: Roni and Stephani get right into it.
Stephani Robson: I actually wanted to ask you a couple questions about your restaurant, if you don't mind.
Roni Mazumdar: Sure.
Sally Helm: Stephani starts off by asking, "What’s up with that cool little alcove in the wall there?"
Roni Mazumdar: That was a mop closet which we turned into a little nook, but that turned out to be the best seat in the house.
Stephani Robson: I was going to ask you why it's there but you just answered that for me. It is a mop closet.
Dan Pashman: The mop closet table is the top table in the restaurant, in terms of overall check average.
Sally Helm: Stephani hears this and is like, "Ah yes. I thought so." One of her big research findings is that customers like tables that are anchored. That means they’re up against a wall, or in a corner. We don’t like feeling exposed. We like to be able to defend our space.
Dan Pashman: We're still basically cave people.
Sally Helm: And actually, there are a lot of anchored tables at Adda. Good for the caveman part of our brains. A ton of them are up against that long wall, with the banquette. But then, of course, there’s the table in the window.
Dan Pashman: Let’s bring it back to this table, table 101.
Roni Mazumdar: Oh, boy.
Sally Helm: We walk over to table 101. Remember, Stephani’s goal is to make it psychologically and financially optimal. And Roni has given her free reign.
Dan Pashman: Stephani looks at it and immediately she’s like, “Oh, yeah. We can make this better.”
Stefani Robson: I'm delighted. I'm tempted to pull out a piece of paper right now, and maybe I think if Dan has a tape measure, we could draw this thing up. Absolutely.
All: AGREE IN UNISON.
Dan Pashman: All right, break out the blueprints.
Sally Helm: Stephani says, “Okay, look. First of all, the high top thing isn’t working for you, not now that the restaurant isn’t that quick bite place anymore. People at this table feel like they're not part of the restaurant. They might be tempted to just order drinks and appetizers and then head out.” So we need to bring this table down to the level of the others.
Dan Pashman: And then she adds something else. She says, remember that mop closet table that's doing so well? People love to feel like they're in their own space, snug and cozy. But this table over here, it’s right by the door.
Stephani Robson: What I would do is then add a little stub wall, sort of perpendicular to the wall right by the doorway.
Roni Mazumdar: How high do you think the wall should be?
Stephani Robson: Forty-two inches.
Roni Mazumdar: Why?
Stephani Robson: You don't want to wall that so high that people can't see over it. They kind of feel a little uncomfortable when they can't see the whole restaurant, but you also want it high enough that it feels like you're comfortable and anchored.
Dan Pashman: Alright, first off Sally, did you hear how quickly Stephani said 42 inches?
Sally Helm: She knows.
Dan Pashman: She’s so hardcore, I love it. Anyway, she says, if Roni adds this little wall, he can turn this into a much better table.
Stephani Robson: Okay, so we have a notebook here. So why don't you describe for me, Roni, what you'd like to do?
Roni Mazumdar: Maximum number of seats, humanly possible.
Dan Pashman: It becomes clear pretty quickly that Stephani and Roni have different agendas.
Sally Helm: Roni wants more seats for more customers. Feed as many people as possible as quickly as possible, without sacrificing too much on comfort.
Roni Mazumdar: How much space do you really think we need between tables?
Stephani Robson: So, If you're thinking about table spacing, psychologically? You want...I'm gonna say 16 inches between tables.
Roni Mazumdar: Sixteen inches? That's a whole restaurant!
Stephani Robson: Exactly.
Dan Pashman: Stephani’s research shows that sixteen inches is optimal. It’s the Goldilocks distance. We don’t like to feel too isolated. We also don’t like to feel too crammed together. But not all restaurants can afford to have that much space not generating revenue. And especially in an expensive city like New York, customers have gotten used to as little as six inches.
Stephani Robson: And that looks like pretty much what you have.
Robi Mazumdar: Okay.
Stephani Robson: In fact, I would argue that some of those tables is closer to 4.
Roni Mazumdar: They probably are.
Dan Pashman: Stephani wants Roni to start thinking differently. Remember, it’s a real estate business. Her big metric is spend per minute. That essentially tells you how much you’re getting in rent from your diners.
Sally Helm: So she wants to make table 101 into higher-end real estate. Just like when a landlord makes an apartment nicer so tenants expect to pay more for it. Stephani wants to make this table more comfortable. A better psychological experience and she thinks this will pay off in higher check averages. More spending per person. But that’s stressful to Roni, for good reason.
Dan Pashman: Can you give me some idea Roni, how much is one seat in this restaurant worth?
Sally Helm: Roni does some quick math. This much on dinner, this many “turns” of the table per week.
Roni Mazumdar: About $6,000 a month, $72,000 a year. Yeah.
Dan Pashman: So adding one seat is a big deal.
Roni Mazumdar: I guess. Yeah.
Sally Helm: But Stephani's like, "Let me show you."
Dan Pashman: She gets to work with her tape measure.
Stephani Robson: I'm gonna crawl around under the table, if that's okay?
Dan Pashman: Yeah.
Roni Mazumdar: Let's see you in a few.
Dan Pashman: I'll slide out of your way, Stephani.
Stephani Robson: I love my job. I love my job.
Dan Pashman: In case you couldn’t hear, as Stephani crawled under the table she was muttering, “I love my job, I love my job.”
Sally Helm: Finally, she has all the measurements she needs.
Dan Pashman: They budget six inches between tables, not 16. But Roni can see what’s coming.
Sally Helm: He might have to lose a precious seat. And he starts kind of panicking, suggesting all this stuff to get that seat back. He’s like, "Wait, what if we did slightly smaller tables? What if the tables were round? Maybe if we had smaller chairs?"
Dan Pashman: We are literally going inch-by-inch here to try to save one seat in this restaurant.
Roni Mazumdar: Absolutely.
Sally Helm: Stephani listens to these ideas, but she also holds firm.
Dan Pashman: Finally, they have it all drawn out to her specifications. And the big moment comes. They count up the seats.
Stephani Robson: So you've bought yourself one, two, three four five six seven seats. Right now in this space, what's the maximum number of people you would sit here?
Roni Mazumdar: Eight.
Stephani Robson: Okay. So you've actually lost a seat.
Roni Mazumdar: Yeah.
Stephani Robson: But the question is, will you increase your revenue because these tables or more desirable?
Roni Mazumdar: Sure.
Stephani Robson: Suddenly this becomes a great table.
Roni Mazumdar: A great spot, sure.
Stephani Robson: Even though you've lost a seat...
Roni Mazumdar: That's fine, yeah.
Stephani Robson: I'd be willing to bet that you probably will see your revenues go up.
Roni Mazumdar: Hmmm.
Dan Pashman: You almost hear Roni trying to convince himself. He's like, "Yes, yes. That will happen."
Sally Helm: I'm sure of it.
Dan Pashman: So this is what they end up with. A redesigned area for table 101, with this new stub wall for privacy and anchoring, which Stephani’s research has shown people really like. The big high-top table for eight becomes three small tables at a normal height that seat a total of seven.
Dan Pashman: If Roni wants to take Stephani’s advice, he has to go against his restaurateur’s intuition.
Sally Helm: Roni are you in for this experiment?
Roni Mazumdar: I think so.
Sally Helm: So, will Stephani's redesign make Roni more money, even though he's lost one precious seat?
Dan Pashman: After the break, Roni does some construction and we get the results. Stick around.
+++ BREAK +++
Dan Pashman: Welcome back to The Sporkful, I’m Dan Pashman. Hey, do you have an issue with a friend or loved one that relates to food? Is there tension in your relationship because of it? If so, I want to hear from you. We're getting ready to tape a couple of call-in shows and if you call in with your problem or issue or source of tension, I can help you. So get in touch now. No issue too big or too small. Drop me a line at hello@sporkful.com. That's hello@sporkful.com.
Dan Pashman: OK, back to our story...
Dan Pashman: Hey Sally.
Sally Helm: Dan. Hello. It's so nice to see you again. It's so nice to see you. Here we are.
Dan Pashman: Here we are on the sidewalk in Queens, outside Adda Indian canteen.
Sally Helm: it's been a couple months since we were last year. It's winter now.
Dan Pashman: The seasons have not stopped.
Sally Helm: Nope.
Dan Pashman: And we hear that Roni has made the changes that professor Stephani recommended.
Sally Helm: So we're here to see him.
Sally Helm: We walk in and right away...
Dan Pashman: It’s really different.
Sally Helm: I just gasped because the stub wall that we heard so much about is here. Here it is. I wonder if it is 42 inches tall as Stephani wanted it to be.
Dan Pashman: And, you know, it’s interesting that the stub wall really does separate this table. Because we’re actually, Sally, we’re only like three feet away from this table and we're staring at them very awkwardly and clearly talking about their table. And they don’t seem to have noticed.
Sally Helm: Yeah, no, I don't feel weird about it. I feel like we can talk here all day.
Dan Pashman: The high top, table 101 is gone. In its place are three tables at normal height. The window is now revealed to the whole restaurant, instead of being blocked by the high table.
Sally Helm: After a bit, Roni shows up. He confirms that the stub wall is indeed exactly 42 inches tall.
Dan Pashman: Oh, thank goodness.
Sally Helm: And he thinks that the wall has made a way bigger difference than he ever imagined.
Roni Mazumdar: So it was a huge learning experience for me as an operator, as to just this kind of a subtle difference, how big of an impact it can have on the emotional state of your guests.
MUSIC
Dan Pashman: Roni says the renovations cost about $4,000. So, would it be worth it?
Sally Helm: A few weeks later, we get the data.
Roni Mazumdar: Hi, Stephani. How are you?
Stephani Robson: Great, Roni. How are you?
Dan Pashman: We got Roni into the studio and called up Stephani.
Sally Helm: Roni had his team send Stephani the data in advance. Four weeks of customer spending at table 101 before the renovation, and four weeks in that area after the renovation. She crunched the numbers. She was the only one who had seen the final figures.
Dan Pashman: So Sally, are we ready to hear the results?
Roni Mazumdar: Oh boy, drum roll.
Sally Helm: Oh my gosh, I’m so ready.
Stephani Robson: Where would you like to start?
Sally Helm: Stephani had calculated the check average, how much time people were spending at the tables, and also the combination, the spend per minute. Now, remember, even two or three bucks of extra spending per check can mean tens of thousands of dollars per year. And Roni has to cover the cost of both the renovation and losing that seat.
Dan Pashman: Stephani looked at lunch and dinner separately. At lunch, after the renovation, the check average went up. Now the time people spent at tables also went up, but only by a bit. So the key metric, spending per minute, didn’t change enough to be statistically significant.
Sally Helm: As in, this small change could have just been a random chance. But for dinner...
Stephani Robson: The original check average was $36 and 80 cents it went up to $45 and 90 cents.
Roni Mazumdar: Whoa.
Stephani Robson: Yup, so an increase of $9 and 10 cents and that is statistically significant. It's major.
Dan Pashman: Wow. $9 per person.
Stephani Robson: Per person. Just by changing the table.
Roni Mazumdar: That’s huge.
Sally Helm: At dinner, people were actually spending less time at the tables. This was kind of surprising to us, but Roni had an explanation. He now has three small tables in that area instead of the one big high-top for eight. So smaller groups. They eat quicker than bigger ones.
Dan Pashman: Plus, he found an unexpected benefit, flexibility. He can put these three small tables into any combination, split ‘em up, put em all together. Before, it was one big table. So it would either have a big party, or sit empty. Now the seats are full more often.
Sally Helm: So, higher check averages, less time at the tables. This is looking good for the all important spend-per-minute metric, the one Stephani cares the most about.
Dan Pashman: What's the spend-per-minute then Stephani? In the new arrangement for dinner?
Stephani Robson: The spend per minute went from 49.3 cents to 68.3 cents.
All: Whoa!
Stephani Robson: So for an increase of 19 cents
Dan Pashman: Cha ching. Roni's buying lunch today.
Stephani Robson: That's right.
Roni Mazumdar: Depending on the table we sit at.
Dan Pashman: Wow. That's a huge increase.
Stephani Robson: Yeah, very significant. Uh, well I shouldn't say very. Significant is significant but all three of these metrics for dinner, both the average check, the duration, and when you put them together, the spend-per-minute. All of those were significant results.
Dan Pashman: She means statistically significant. But it's also significant in the other sense, like, meaningful. If you assume those results hold over the course of the year, do some back of the envelope calculations, Adda is likely to make more than enough to cover the cost of losing that seat. They’re on pace to make an extra 18,000 dollars a year. Roni says that's basically the entire utility bill. And they did that just by making the tables more flexible, and more comfortable.
Sally Helm: Roni told us, that is actually his big takeaway from the experiment.
Roni Mazumdar: We sometimes get caught up on counting every inch, but maybe the answer isn't just about that extra table, but the quality of the experience that can make a significant impact.
Dan Pashman: He said he's drawing up plans for a new restaurant now, focused on Indian grilling, kebabs and street food. And this time, no high-top tables.
Roni Mazumdar: We're literally in the process right now for the upcoming restaurant. We're deciding on all the seating. I'm like, "Banquettes! No high-tops! No communal seating!"
Stephani Robson: Send me the drawings. Send me the drawings. I want to have a look!
Sally Helm: So that was Roni's takeaway. But Dan, you and I were more focused on what this means for us the next time we eat.
Dan Pashman: Yeah, like now I understand why I like to sit up against a wall. So I'm gonna try to do that even more often and that way no one can attack me.
Sally Helm: Really, cause I am so sort of like, I don't know if I want to be subtly incepted by design factors to spending more money on food.
Dan Pashman: Yeah, I think it's too late for that.
Sally Helm: I'm not sure I like that.
Dan Pashman: So Sally, before I let you go, you are hosting a new podcast.
Sally Helm: I am. It is called History This Week. There are episodes every week about history.
Dan Pashman: It sounds like a good name then.
Sally Helm: It is. Check it out.
Dan Pashman: And also check out Planet Money, our friends over there do a great job. They recently did one about raw milk, which has been an obsession of mine for years. So check out the Planet Money story on raw milk.
Dan Pashman: Alright, thanks Sally. This was a lot of fun. Let's do it again, sometime.
Sally Helm: Thanks Dan, see you soon.
Dan Pashman: Remember, if you want to call in to an upcoming episode of The Sporkful, if you have an issue, a source of tension in a relationship with a friend or a loved one. No problem too large or too small. I want to hear from you. Email me at hello@sporkful.com.
